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Blink and You'll Miss It - Easily Overlooked Rules

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its a pretty interesting game idea! i'm a big fan of the core. honestly, doesnt seem like it, but I am. more excited for this rpg than i've been for many!

but i think there are some polishing needed. theres a lot of things bugging me. sometimes details, sometimes big things. i dunno why;

duels(really not doing it for me, mostly the predict action and the iaijutsu technique(rising cut is the worst offender), curriculums(i am seeing if it could work as punch cards instead of being able to take each options multiple time, why not?), compromised condition ping pong effect(as we discuss here), the unconscious condition(they should make it clear that you keep the incapacitated condition on top of it, if you are incapacitated and not just sleeping that is), weapon table needs a few tweak, a few school curriculums needs slight modifications, a few techniques(rushing avalanche, rising cut, but i havent read them all yet...)... its not like an overwhelming amount of stuff, and its relatively easy fix to do to make me perfectly happy. And in general, i just love to discuss about this shite :D

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That argument is extremely flimsy.

The action you get to use from wait you only get to use because you waited, therefore, the action is a component of the Wait action and not a 100% unique action on its own. Thus, it follows all restrictions I mentioned above. If this is truly what players think they can do, I would highly suggest shooting a message to the devs for clarification and thus an errata will come down.

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7 minutes ago, JBento said:

Wait is just Support, so as long as your first action wasn't Support, you're golden (as written). Feel free to smack someone in the face twice per round.

its definitely not intended.

Edited by Avatar111

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2 minutes ago, Vutall said:

That argument is extremely flimsy.

The action you get to use from wait you only get to use because you waited, therefore, the action is a component of the Wait action and not a 100% unique action on its own. Thus, it follows all restrictions I mentioned above. If this is truly what players think they can do, I would highly suggest shooting a message to the devs for clarification and thus an errata will come down.

This is most certainly not true as written, though I have a feeling it's what is INTENDED. Evidence: if the trigger doesn't proc, you get whatever action you want whatsoever.

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You have to read the rules extremely mechanistically to get to that conclusion.

By the same strictness, my rank 1 Kitsuki Investigator can cast R6 Invocations because nowhere does it explicitly say that I have to actually buy any techniques before being able to use them.
It's simply blindingly obvious that it's true.

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3 minutes ago, Vutall said:

That argument is extremely flimsy.

The action you get to use from wait you only get to use because you waited, therefore, the action is a component of the Wait action and not a 100% unique action on its own. Thus, it follows all restrictions I mentioned above. If this is truly what players think they can do, I would highly suggest shooting a message to the devs for clarification and thus an errata will come down.

yeah, its definitely an easy to see abuse, definitely not intended, but, putting into words is just fair play. the wait action should take the keywords of whatever action you intend to take. not "support". maybe.

and i'm still against the fact that you get a "whatever you want to do" action at the end of the turn if your intended action didn't come up. imo, if what you waited for didn't come up, well, too bad you skipped your turn. Or if you really give an action (whatever action you want) then your initiative order should be put back at the end of the order for next round.

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5 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

its a pretty interesting game idea! i'm a big fan of the core. honestly, doesnt seem like it, but I am. more excited for this rpg than i've been for many!

but i think there are some polishing needed. theres a lot of things bugging me. sometimes details, sometimes big things. i dunno why;

duels(really not doing it for me, mostly the predict action and the iaijutsu technique(rising cut is the worst offender), curriculums(i am seeing if it could work as punch cards instead of being able to take each options multiple time, why not?), compromised condition ping pong effect(as we discuss here), the unconscious condition(they should make it clear that you keep the incapacitated condition on top of it, if you are incapacitated and not just sleeping that is), weapon table needs a few tweak, a few school curriculums needs slight modifications, a few techniques(rushing avalanche, rising cut, but i havent read them all yet...)... its not like an overwhelming amount of stuff, and its relatively easy fix to do to make me perfectly happy. And in general, i just love to discuss about this shite :D

I totally agree with you. I like the system but I think it needs polishing. I honestly don't think it was tested enough,specially in some areas like you point out.

It's no big deal as with every rpg as a gm you can tweak rules techniques etc. But it's a pity you get a brand new rpg and the first thing you do is start brainstorming how to fix certain things. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. 

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6 hours ago, Avatar111 said:

that is how star wars works, but where did you find that rule in l5r? 

even if the options can only be taken once (which is good to know!) I'll still keep the lower your strife below or equal to half your composure. I think. still feel many time you'll end up compromised with 1 or 2 strife higher than your composure and then your buddies will start to earth roll opp to help you, then either you'll get compromised again on your turn or if an enemy use fire opp... its a bit too ping pong for my taste, maybe.  but that is why I write it here, to get discussions going.

Sidebar, page 28, "Scaling Effects." 

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4 minutes ago, Myrion said:

You have to read the rules extremely mechanistically to get to that conclusion.

By the same strictness, my rank 1 Kitsuki Investigator can cast R6 Invocations because nowhere does it explicitly say that I have to actually buy any techniques before being able to use them.
It's simply blindingly obvious that it's true.

Except nowhere does it say that you can use them without buying them, while Wait specifically comes out and tells me "Hi, I'm a Support action." Not Support plus whatever else you want to do, just... Support. And it STILL doesn't address the fact that if it doesn't trigger, you can do whatever you want at the end of the round.

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4 minutes ago, Shosur0 said:

I totally agree with you. I like the system but I think it needs polishing. I honestly don't think it was tested enough,specially in some areas like you point out.

 

I honestly don't think it comes down to lack of testing as much as lack of decent proofreading. Coiling Serpent Style is just ridiculous - I can't wait to get my hand on a trident - and there's clearly SOMETHING wrong with its first Opp spend option.

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Nowhere does it say that the action you Wait does not have to follow all other restrictions either.

So yes, either you read Wait reasonably, or my Kitsuki will start spamming any and all techniques always, because there's no explicit rule preventing that.

This entire argument is utterly ridiculous - and will not come up in play with any non-toxic players.

 

Edited by Myrion
All hail Tpyo!

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2 minutes ago, JBento said:

Except nowhere does it say that you can use them without buying them, while Wait specifically comes out and tells me "Hi, I'm a Support action." Not Support plus whatever else you want to do, just... Support. And it STILL doesn't address the fact that if it doesn't trigger, you can do whatever you want at the end of the round.

They're defined in the first paragraph of the Techniques chapter as "special abilities" - if they can be used by everyone already, then they aren't special abilities.. 

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16 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Nowhere does it say that the action you Wait does not have to follow all other restrictions either.

So yes, either you read Wait reasonably, or my Kitsuki will start spamming any and all techniques always, because there's not explicit rule preventing that.

This entire argument is utterly ridiculous - and will not come up in play with any non-toxic players.

 

yeah, its clearly an abuse, unintended. and we say it is. not that we're going to allow it at our table.

i already revised the "wait" action in my book:

wait action keyword(s) is same as the action you intend to take. if the action trigger doesnt happen before the end of the turn, you can take whatever action you want at the end of the turn but then put yourself at the bottom of initiative order (or you don't act at all and keep the same initiative order). if multiple characters waited, they can act in their original initiative order score and put themselves in that order at the bottom of the initiative order.

 

Edited by Avatar111

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4 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Nowhere does it say that the action you Wait does not have to follow all other restrictions either.

So yes, either you read Wait reasonably, or my Kitsuki will start spamming any and all techniques always, because there's no explicit rule preventing that.

This entire argument is utterly ridiculous - and will not come up in play with any non-toxic players.

 

There's a difference between "this isn't mentioned" and "this is explicitly mentioned". Do you also contend that if the trigger doesn't happen on a normal (non-Water stance) Wait action, you can't use a Movement action at the end?

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Yep. You wasted all that time Waiting, no more chance to move.

Okay, so you all agree that this is neither broken nor actually a problem? Then why are you arguing so strenuously that it is?

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11 minutes ago, Myrion said:

So yes, either you read Wait reasonably, or my Kitsuki will start spamming any and all techniques always, because there's no explicit rule preventing that.

I'm fairly sure that spamming techniques all day every day is really a thing. 

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2 minutes ago, Myrion said:

Yep. You wasted all that time Waiting, no more chance to move.

Okay, so you all agree that this is neither broken nor actually a problem? Then why are you arguing so strenuously that it is?

Except that's not what "any action" means. I mean, it's going to take a character more time to pick a lock than to move 10 feet, and they can totally do the former, so clearly it isn't a time issue.

We're not arguing that it's a GAME problem, because I think it's pretty obvious no-one's going to let Wait work as written, and it has a pretty easy fix - Wait ALSO has all the types of the action you're waiting with. We're arguing it's a BOOK QUALITY problem, because it's indicative that no-one with half a brain proofed it (it's not the only book quality issue by far, like school tables having redundant entries and Coiling Serpent Style just... being Coiling Serpent Style).

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If there's such an obvious way to handle it, everyone who reads it can understand how it's supposed to work - then it's clearly not a book quality issue.

The book needs to be clear and understandable and for the most part it is. That is high quality work right there.
You could have them write everything in legalese with an enormous dictionary that has clear definitions for a lot of words, including some very counter-intuitive definitions that do not conform to everyday usage - and you would still end up with lawyers arguing about how any given law rule is supposed to work.

Or you can sit down like a player who wants to play a game and read a nicely understandable book that works well.

I know how I'm gonna do this.

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43 minutes ago, JBento said:

Except that's not what "any action" means. I mean, it's going to take a character more time to pick a lock than to move 10 feet, and they can totally do the former, so clearly it isn't a time issue.

It is definitely not because as per the rules, moving 90 yards takes as much time as moving 8. 

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10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

It is definitely not because as per the rules, moving 90 yards takes as much time as moving 8. 

the way to do it, i think, is that you count your speed from the point you are (and not the point you want to get to). so that the first range bands you move are always slower, then the more range band you move the bigger the distance get.

interesting subject though, and a very generic GO board tactical grid with the grid rules kinda make it better if your group is really about that.

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On 10/23/2018 at 9:02 PM, Avatar111 said:

imagine one player hiding, start an initiative, he wins ini (cause ninja). he waits, immune to everything, then double act at the end of turn. ok, this is just an example, maybe not a perfect one, but i smell all the issues from here.

Hold up. How is a player who's hiding getting to start initiative while staying in hiding? I think a good case can be made it's better mechanically to not even let him have an initiative until he gets actively involved in the scene, although the rules don't spell that out.

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23 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Hold up. How is a player who's hiding getting to start initiative while staying in hiding? I think a good case can be made it's better mechanically to not even let him have an initiative until he gets actively involved in the scene, although the rules don't spell that out.

that example could be wrong ;)  but the idea is that you can have "2 turns in a row". With the wait action as is. and a 2 turn in a row "combo".. opens up a lot of shenanigans. Some players started to try choosing "actions that will most probably never happen" just to get their action at the end of the turn because they can do for example, a prone, and then play again right after and use a technique that does xtra dmg on prone opponents.

when you start to have a full team of players who do that...you can easily start to have two or 3 players that will act twice in a row.  OOF. let me tell you it gets unmanageable and all about cheesing out the initiative order to make "combos".

 

real experience:

everybody with high initiative does: earth stance and wait action. while being in relatively good strategic position with their free move.

ok, you have a "Free round on them" (which wont achieve much, because earth stance cookblock most of the bad stuff)  And after that, its just pure cheese. they get double turn with their big rings, all comboing with each others. insanity.

 

Edited by Avatar111

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Except, of course, if someone on the other side has Open Hand Style (and EVERYONE should), in which case at least one of your guys is now in Water stance and about to take a full round of hits to the face.

Or the enemy just draws bows and Pelting Hail Styles (which everyone should ALSO have) the entirety of your team into Compromised, in which case you're doing diddly squat with your turn, except Unmasking at the end of it.

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10 minutes ago, JBento said:

Or the enemy just draws bows and Pelting Hail Styles (which everyone should ALSO have) the entirety of your team into Compromised, in which case you're doing diddly squat with your turn, except Unmasking at the end of it.

You can Unmask at the beginning of your turn too:

Quote

In structured time, while a character is Compromised, they may unmask at the beginning or end of their turn.

 

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4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

You can Unmask at the beginning of your turn too:

 

Fantastic. But if you WAITED, then the start of your turn is gone. Wait doesn't give you an extra turn, it gives you an action outside of your turn. So that action is bupkiss.

I was actually thinking you could Unmask at the end of it (the action), but you (probably) can't, so unless you've got the highest initiative that's another chance your opponents have to do something to you while you've done nothing so far.

Edited by JBento

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