Dueling Mechanic? Need help understanding.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

11 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

and the Iaido techniques in this game are basically a way to strike when sword is not out without using water stance. that's all. and i'm talking about Crossing Cut here, because Rising Cut is just pure trash.

You just need to craft a razor-edged bisento to feel the true power of the Iaijutsu Cuts. 

And no, I have the rulebook in front of me, and the Kakita Ring bonuses is Air or Fire. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by AtoMaki

[JBento 229]

Just now, AtoMaki said:

You just need to craft a razor-edged bisento to feel the true power of the Iaijutsu Cuts. 

Or be lucky enough to get one at character creation, though given the choice I'd rather add Snaring. Maybe you'll get lucky with your GM.

[Avatar111 553]

3 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

You just need to craft a razor-edged bisento to feel the true power of the Iaijutsu Cuts. 

And no, I have the rulebook in front of me, and the Kakita Ring bonuses is Air or Fire. 

I already nerfed Bisento hard (removed its 1hand option). so its basically same as naginata but durable instead of razor-edged. screw that weapon.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Please don't bully the Kakira Duelist, poor guy has enough problems. If you want a good duelist match then go Hida Defender aka 'Nice Critical Too Bad I Reduce It To Nothing' or Mitumoto Swordsman aka 'Forget Your Explosions: The School' or the Ikoma Bard aka 'Strife And Daze Wins The Day'. Now those are worthy opponents in a duel! 

0 is still the bottom of the table, and is still a hit. First strike, he still loses.

First blood? much harder.

[Avatar111 553]

14 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

0 is still the bottom of the table, and is still a hit. First strike, he still loses.

First blood? much harder.

first strike are the most fun "iaido" duels at the moment. i think. they make initiative/staredown super important and finishing blows can probably trigger easy, because you want to bid strife to attack first, and if you win then strike but unfortunately get too much strife ? finishing blow will INTERRUPT your attack, so if you are against a Kakita Duelist, he can use a Iaijutsu technique to be able to use that finishing blow (crossing cut is the best option here, but generally rising cut is trash).

so yeah... to First Strike is pretty cool!

to first blood seems to have issues, because of earth stance and predict/center being bad actions.

the other duels are mini skirmishes and are fine too. probably.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

1 minute ago, Avatar111 said:

first strike are the most fun "iaido" duels at the moment. i think. they make initiative/staredown super important and finishing blows can probably trigger easy, because you want to bid strife to attack first, and if you win then strike but unfortunately get too much strife ? finishing blow will INTERRUPT your attack, so if you are against a Kakita Duelist, he can use a Iaijutsu technique to be able to use that finishing blow (crossing cut is the best option here, but generally rising cut is trash).

so yeah... to First Strike is pretty cool!

to first blood seems to have issues, because of earth stance and predict/center being bad actions.

the other duels are mini skirmishes and are fine too. probably.

No, it's not trash, but you're too stubborn to either pay attention and/or  follow the logic.

Duels to first strike or first blood are not about inflicting fatigue. They're about first crit.

Starting characters (and most rank 1 characters in general) need to center to assure a successful crit - by reserving an explosive. Using a shūji or two is also an option.

If you've a ring of 2, you need 2 explosives to crit with a strike - so you must keep either X+O or X+X. Any other combination is inflicting fatigue, but not a crit.

The rising strife within the duel/clash framework makes Rising cut of value in first strike or first blood - many characters will strife out on round three, better rank 1's on round 4. Rank 3-5, quite possibly can make it to round 5. So, time limit.

Having the extra rolls from center are useful - especially when one remembers that advantages can be applied to the center roll, so one can optimize for kept explosives.

Prevent stops them from using highest known-to-you ring - and rings are pretty obvious once the roll is made, unless they've intentionally kept low.

You're not raising the crit with fire, either, in duel, unless you're striking - in a narrative sense, two strikes in a row is still potentially within the iaijutsu form - if you describe the first as a feint and the second as an actual attempt at a strike. 

Note that only two of the standard duel actions use rolls - Center and Strike. The others are all no-roll. You can predict AND strike if you are in Water...

[Avatar111 553]

5 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

No, it's not trash, but you're too stubborn to either pay attention and/or  follow the logic.

Duels to first strike or first blood are not about inflicting fatigue. They're about first crit.

Starting characters (and most rank 1 characters in general) need to center to assure a successful crit - by reserving an explosive. Using a shūji or two is also an option.

If you've a ring of 2, you need 2 explosives to crit with a strike - so you must keep either X+O or X+X. Any other combination is inflicting fatigue, but not a crit.

The rising strife within the duel/clash framework makes Rising cut of value in first strike or first blood - many characters will strife out on round three, better rank 1's on round 4. Rank 3-5, quite possibly can make it to round 5. So, time limit.

Having the extra rolls from center are useful - especially when one remembers that advantages can be applied to the center roll, so one can optimize for kept explosives.

Prevent stops them from using highest known-to-you ring - and rings are pretty obvious once the roll is made, unless they've intentionally kept low.

You're not raising the crit with fire, either, in duel, unless you're striking - in a narrative sense, two strikes in a row is still potentially within the iaijutsu form - if you describe the first as a feint and the second as an actual attempt at a strike. 

Note that only two of the standard duel actions use rolls - Center and Strike. The others are all no-roll. You can predict AND strike if you are in Water...

tell me in what case, in a duel, that iaijutsu:rising cut is better than iaijutsu:crossing cut.

sure, rising cut is better than nothing at all, but that was not my point.

 

thx for the wall of text.

some corrections:

-duel to first strike are not to first crit, but first HIT. much different. and I said duel to first hit are fine, its to first crit that are a bit busted right now.

-Center, is not a "rolled check". it doesnt count as such, you can't spend opportunities etc.

and before saying i'm too stubborn, or don't understand the logic... try to get good ok? you are talking to somebody with a lot more glory than you right now

Edited October 25, 2018 by Avatar111

[deraforia 169]

49 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

you are talking to somebody with a lot more glory than you right now

In what world is 22 greater than 715?

[Avatar111 553]

5 minutes ago, deraforia said:

In what world is 22 greater than 715?

amazing Dragon Courtier answer to my taunt  i honestly love it.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

57 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

Starting characters (and most rank 1 characters in general) need to center to assure a successful crit

It is a subpar way to assure a crit. The character is better off with Void Point + reserved Opp from Initiative (via the Any <Opp> option). Or these plus Void Initiative for the -1 TN <Opp>. 

Also, for the sake of all that is good and holy, don't enter a duel when your highest Ring is 3. That's suicide. 

[JBento 229]

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

 

Also, for the sake of all that is good and holy, don't enter a duel when your highest Ring is 3. That's suicide. 

A samurai does not fear death (but ask your daimyo permission first, unless it's an egregious offence)!

[Avatar111 553]

4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Also, for the sake of all that is good and holy, don't enter a duel when your highest Ring is 3. That's suicide. 

depends who you are dueling.

i actually feel the book should have a sidebar about who can duel who.

I really don't like how the "challenge" action works in skirmish. like, nothing stops your bushi duelist from throwing a challenge to a farmer ? or a shugenja ? or ffs A TROLL ?

if a bushi throws a challenge mid skirmish to a shugenja, in no way the shugenja should suffer the glory lost for refusing... in an intrigue whatever, the shugenja could accept, then find himself a champion etc. but mid skirmish ? come on. the bushi should not even be allowed to throw a challenge, same as he shouldnt be able to throw a challenge to an ashigaru and the ashigaru "losing glory" and the bushing "gaining a void point" if the ashigaru refuses.

anyway, its more lore stuff, but yeah, i feel they should define a bit more how that works and when a challenge is actually appropriate.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Avatar111

[The Grand Falloon 1,718]

1 hour ago, Avatar111 said:

-duel to first strike are not to first crit, but first HIT. much different. and I said duel to first hit are fine, its to first crit that are a bit busted right now.

From the book: "When fought to first strike, the duel objective is to inflict a critical strike on the opponent."
Get good yourself.

[Avatar111 553]

8 minutes ago, The Grand Falloon said:

From the book: "When fought to first strike, the duel objective is to inflict a critical strike on the opponent."
Get good yourself.

changes everything. good one! and i just lost some glory...

then yeah, duel to first "crit" are busted, not fun, as is (if you want the more "traditional iaido style). mostly because of earth stance, and that both iaijutsu techniques can't crit a non-compromised opponent. you basically end up most of the time in a mini-skirmish of strike fiesta until someone become compromise or Incapacitated.

duel to first "hit" are good though, mechanically they would be good, legit, tense and fun.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Avatar111

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Also, for the sake of all that is good and holy, don't enter a duel when your highest Ring is 3. That's suicide. 

Not always an option.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

1 hour ago, The Grand Falloon said:

From the book: "When fought to first strike, the duel objective is to inflict a critical strike on the opponent."

I've been Pointing out this since about page 3 of the thread... 

[Avatar111 553]

9 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

I've been Pointing out this since about page 3 of the thread... 

and you were right about it.

doesn't make rising cut any good though. wasn't that the discussion ?

you saved face due to my mistake. i'll give you that samurai.

[Avatar111 553]

@AK_Aramis to keep up with something else you mentioned, are there any good Shuji for duels ? (not for before the duel, but to use as an action aside striking).

[AtoMaki 1,431]

A good Shuji to end a duel? Pillar of Calm. If your opponent specced for dueling then they are in a lot of trouble now. 

[WHW 1,817]

Fanning the Flames, Civility Foremost are both great openers that let you debuff your opponent while keeping up the threat of Finishing Blow due to applying Strife.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

Courtier's Resolve is also good. 1 Void point resets Strife.

Edited October 25, 2018 by ExplodingJoe

[Avatar111 553]

thx all, i will check that tonight.

maybe Shujis can save the "iaijutsu duels" from necessarily going into a mini-skirmish being the best most logical option.

otherwise, maybe adding a Check to predict... but that is something that might have dire consequences if not done properly.

obviously, a mirumoto duelist would still probably prefer to strike as soon as possible with crossing cut, get both his sword out, and strike like a madman every turn. getting you do become incapacitated (or getting a super lucky roll) and then crit you

the crab probably stand in earth stance until you predict him, soaking strife and/or fatigue, and also strike at you whenever he can, going for the incapacitated.

but if you really want that crane feeling, of one strike one crit. shujis might be the best option. you want to provoke that finishing blow, it is your best bet of winning, because if you start to predict, center etc etc, you'll be out of the fight already since the others who are striking all the time (and strifing themselves) will eventually fatigue you out or get a lucky crit.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Avatar111

[JBento 229]

12 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

Courtier's Resolve is also good. 1 Void point resets Strife.

****** it, thank you for this. I spent like 20 minutes looking for this thing that I could swear I'd seen but couldn't find it anymore. At one point, I was starting to think I'd imagined it due to Warrior's Resolve.

 

EDIT: I forgot to ask, did it do a full reset (to 0) in the Beta rules?

Edited October 25, 2018 by JBento

[Ultimatecalibur 597]

Touchstone of Courage allows you to increase your Composure (and remove Strife if you can get the opportunities).

 

[Avatar111 553]

we might be onto something lads...

maybe a kakita duelist isn't so trash, by basically capitalizing on his "social skills" (and maybe add the 2opp to crit on rising cut).

but he needs ways to put strife on the striking opponent also, because don't get me wrong, that dragon niten duelist will go chop chop all day, and early, since he probably have crossing cuts.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Avatar111