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Natash Pup and attacks

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If a YV-666 equipped with the Natash Pup is destroyed after it has attacked, does the Pup also get an attack? RAW seems to indicate it does (it has the same initiative as the destroyed ship, and it deploys before the other ship is removed, thus it is allowed an attack per emergency deployment rules), but that feels super janky.

Someone at my event mentioned that there has been some discussion of the timing of the engagement phase that the window for engagement closes before the Pup is deployed. I can't find that. Emergency Deployment specifies "before the carrier is removed from play", so does that mean after the window for engagements closes, or does that put the Pup into the engagement phase at its initiative and thus allows the attack?

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Unless it's destroyed somehow during its side's init, no.  If it's somehow destroyed between its carrier shooting and the end of that init step, probably ues, but I'm not sure how that would happen.

If it's destroyed during its opponent's init, it won't be able to shoot because its turn has already passed.

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6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Unless it's destroyed somehow during its side's init, no.  If it's somehow destroyed between its carrier shooting and the end of that init step, probably ues, but I'm not sure how that would happen.

If it's destroyed during its opponent's init, it won't be able to shoot because its turn has already passed.

What's the rules interaction at work here? The letter of the rule is "If a ship is destroyed during the Engagement Phase, it is removed after all ships that have the same initiative as the currently engaged ship have engaged, which is called simultaneous fire." The Natash Pup is deployed, but it is now of the same initiative and has not engaged. There isn't a "its side's init", there is only an initiative step, which would seem to trigger the rule that it can attack at its initiative after emergency deployment.

This could also be an issue on other docked ships which share the same initiative as the pilot.

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Hrm.

Suppose Bossk is flying the Hound's Tooth.  If Bossk is destroyed by Redline at Initiative 5, the Nashtah Pup can clearly attack at Initiative 4.  If Bossk is destroyed at Init 1 by a Delta Squadron Pilot, the Nashah pup can clearly not attack.

But what about Initiative 4... A defending ship's destruction and removal is postponed until all ships at the attacker's Initiative have attacked.  If Bossk is the first player, and Deathrain kills Bossk after Bossk has already attacked, I think 's player's ships already had their option to engage, and the Hound's Tooth has missed it.  It's a bit trickier when Deathrain is the first player.  Deathrain fires first, kills Bossk, and Bossk attacks second before he's removed due to Simultaneous fire.  However, he can't be removed until everyone at his initiative has already attacked.  To me, "After all ships of a given initiative have engaged, all destroyed ships are removed, (Egagement Phase, p.10)" implies that the door has closed.  Everyone who had that initiative attacked, then ships are removed once it's done.  I don't see anything to indicate that it is un-done or that the sequence is reopened.  It ended, Bossk was removed, and after the initiative step is over, the Pup arrives on the scene.

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Short version: if the Hound's Tooth is destroyed by a higher initiative ship than itself, then Nashta Pup can attack when its turn comes as normal. If it was destroyed by an equal or lower initiative ship, then Nashta Pup will have missed its initiative and cannot attack.

Am I understanding that right?

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5 minutes ago, jftanner said:

Short version: if the Hound's Tooth is destroyed by a higher initiative ship than itself, then Nashta Pup can attack when its turn comes as normal. If it was destroyed by an equal or lower initiative ship, then Nashta Pup will have missed its initiative and cannot attack.

Am I understanding that right?

Not *quite*.  It's very clear that if it's destroyed by a higher Init pilot, the Pup gets to shoot, the Tooth doesn't, and if it's destroyed by a lower init pilot, the Tooth does, the Pup doesn't.  The case of an equal init pilot is complex:

Iden, Bossk, and the Pup are on the board.  The following situations can happen:

1: Iden is first player.  Iden kills Bossk.  The Pup deploys, and can shoot.

2: Bossk is first player.  Bossk shoots as normal.  Then Iden kills Bossk.  The Pup can't shoot, because it's turn to shoot has passed.

3: Bossk (doesn't matter if he has first or second player) has a Console Fire crit, which kills him (or is killed by some other effect during his player turn during init step 4).  He gets to shoot, per the Official Rules confirmation.  Arguably, the Pup then deploys, and gets to shoot, because it hasn't shot this round.  This is clear by RAW, but seems a little suspect, to me, by RAI.

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1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not *quite*.  It's very clear that if it's destroyed by a higher Init pilot, the Pup gets to shoot, the Tooth doesn't, and if it's destroyed by a lower init pilot, the Tooth does, the Pup doesn't.  The case of an equal init pilot is complex:

Iden, Bossk, and the Pup are on the board.  The following situations can happen:

1: Iden is first player.  Iden kills Bossk.  The Pup deploys, and can shoot.

2: Bossk is first player.  Bossk shoots as normal.  Then Iden kills Bossk.  The Pup can't shoot, because it's turn to shoot has passed.

3: Bossk (doesn't matter if he has first or second player) has a Console Fire crit, which kills him (or is killed by some other effect during his player turn during init step 4).  He gets to shoot, per the Official Rules confirmation.  Arguably, the Pup then deploys, and gets to shoot, because it hasn't shot this round.  This is clear by RAW, but seems a little suspect, to me, by RAI.

For situation 1, doesn't simultaneous fire mean that Bossk isn't killed, and therefore Nashta Pup doesn't deploy, until _after_ Bossk shoots back along with everyone else at init 4? So, wouldn't the Pup still have missed it's chance to attack in that case?

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19 hours ago, jftanner said:

Short version: if the Hound's Tooth is destroyed by a higher initiative ship than itself, then Nashta Pup can attack when its turn comes as normal. If it was destroyed by an equal or lower initiative ship, then Nashta Pup will have missed its initiative and cannot attack.

Am I understanding that right?

Well, I think there's some disagreement between those of us answering the question, so there might not be a clear answer to whether you're understanding it right.

18 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not *quite*.  It's very clear that if it's destroyed by a higher Init pilot, the Pup gets to shoot, the Tooth doesn't, and if it's destroyed by a lower init pilot, the Tooth does, the Pup doesn't.  The case of an equal init pilot is complex:

Iden, Bossk, and the Pup are on the board.  The following situations can happen:

1: Iden is first player.  Iden kills Bossk.  The Pup deploys, and can shoot. 

2: Bossk is first player.  Bossk shoots as normal.  Then Iden kills Bossk.  The Pup can't shoot, because it's turn to shoot has passed.

3: Bossk (doesn't matter if he has first or second player) has a Console Fire crit, which kills him (or is killed by some other effect during his player turn during init step 4).  He gets to shoot, per the Official Rules confirmation.  Arguably, the Pup then deploys, and gets to shoot, because it hasn't shot this round.  This is clear by RAW, but seems a little suspect, to me, by RAI.

Personally, I disagree with #1, and the relevant parts of #3 (I disagree with the Pup shooting, not with Bossk shooting).  As I read the Emergency Deployment rules, the trigger for Emergency Deployment isn't the destruction of a ship (it doesn't necessarily happen when Iden kills Bossk), but its removal from the game.  As I read the Simultaneous Fire rules, destroyed ships aren't removed from the game until after the initiative step of the attacker.  Since Emergency Deployment doesn't happen until after the initiative step has already ended, I think the Pup has lost its opportunity to attack.

Meanwhile, I think there's a kind of fairness to it.  If Bossk has already attacked (because of high initiative or because of simultaneous attacks), the Pup cannot perform an attack.  If Bossk has not attacked, the Pup still gets to shoot.  There is a neatness and cleanness to that which appeals to me aesthetically.

I can understand the other side, however.  It's possible to see an emergency deployed ship as a ship at the current initiative which has not attacked, and thus the conditions for moving onto are no longer met.  It's a little like a paradox.  The conditions to move on from the initiative step have to have been met before the Hound's Tooth is removed, but once it's removed, those conditions have changed because the Nashah Pup has deployed.

*e*

The barber shaves all the men who do not shave themselves.  Does the barber shave himself?

I can't really fault anyone who comes to a different conclusion of a Paradox, but I have my own preferred interpretation. I hope I've described it clearly.

Edited by theBitterFig

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On 10/14/2018 at 1:30 PM, theBitterFig said:

The barber shaves all the men who do not shave themselves.  Does the barber shave himself?

The barber is a droid.

It seems like a lot of the discourse in here is trying to apply the 1.0 Simultaneous Fire rule. In 2.0, Destroyed_Bossk killed at I4 is not removed until *all* 4s (including himself) have fired, regardless of who is first player. Before he's removed, the Pup deploys and we're off to I3 shots.

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I don't think this needs any further clarification, since it doesn't seem like anyone is confused, but @skotothalamos got me thinking and I went and had a look at the rules.

 

image.png.36adaecc1085cb5e60e6d7764f8bc73e.png

image.png.716f25a3254f9996ac566f0d1df0ad23.png

Nothing in the rules for Reserve states that the ship does not engage. It merely says that it cannot attack. Similarly, simultaneous fire does not exclude ships that are currently in reserve.

Therefore, when the Hounds Tooth is destroyed during its own initiative, it is not removed until after Nashta Pup engages (even though the pup, still in reserve, can't attack during that engagement.) So, when the Pup is deployed, it has already engaged and does not get to do so again.

I think that neatly resolves the potential paradox that @theBitterFig mentioned.

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1 hour ago, jftanner said:

I don't think this needs any further clarification, since it doesn't seem like anyone is confused, but @skotothalamos got me thinking and I went and had a look at the rules.

 

image.png.36adaecc1085cb5e60e6d7764f8bc73e.png

image.png.716f25a3254f9996ac566f0d1df0ad23.png

Nothing in the rules for Reserve states that the ship does not engage. It merely says that it cannot attack. Similarly, simultaneous fire does not exclude ships that are currently in reserve.

Therefore, when the Hounds Tooth is destroyed during its own initiative, it is not removed until after Nashta Pup engages (even though the pup, still in reserve, can't attack during that engagement.) So, when the Pup is deployed, it has already engaged and does not get to do so again.

I think that neatly resolves the potential paradox that @theBitterFig mentioned.

So, if you have a docked ship with Disabled Power Regulator, or Console Fire, does it still suffer the effects of those crits before it engages (but can't attack)? 

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29 minutes ago, player2072913 said:

So, if you have a docked ship with Disabled Power Regulator, or Console Fire, does it still suffer the effects of those crits before it engages (but can't attack)? 

That's a really good question. If you could, then -- in the case of Console Fire -- you could potentially die while docked. Which would be interesting.

However, I don't think so. Damage cards count as abilities (see page 1 of the rules reference) and, as such, are inactive while in reserve.

Edited by jftanner

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15 hours ago, jftanner said:

Nothing in the rules for Reserve states that the ship does not engage. It merely says that it cannot attack. Similarly, simultaneous fire does not exclude ships that are currently in reserve.

Therefore, when the Hounds Tooth is destroyed during its own initiative, it is not removed until after Nashta Pup engages (even though the pup, still in reserve, can't attack during that engagement.) So, when the Pup is deployed, it has already engaged and does not get to do so again.

I think that neatly resolves the potential paradox that @theBitterFig mentioned.

Agreed. That’s the best way to read this: the Pup engages as normal at its Initiative and can’t attack as it is in reserve, so it deploys after it has engaged. 

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16 hours ago, jftanner said:

That's a really good question. If you could, then -- in the case of Console Fire -- you could potentially die while docked. Which would be interesting.

However, I don't think so. Damage cards count as abilities (see page 1 of the rules reference) and, as such, are inactive while in reserve.

This. Damage cards  give the ships they're on abilities which are inactive in reserve. So you ship will remain on fire leaking fuel everywhere as you chill out on board, only when you undock do you start screaming about the fact your ship console is still on fire. 

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Thematically, it would probably make more sense to have damage effects and actions available while docked. Why can't you put out fires, calm down your pilot, etc in a hangar? And, similarly, what magical force (don't say Force) stops you from exploding in the hanger from a console fire?

From a game balance and rules simplicity standpoint, it makes sense. But it's a little odd when you think about it.

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True, but this can also lead to some other weird ideas, like: “Why can’t a dock ship Coordinate?” Then a ship with a docked ship with the Coordinate action essentially becomes a two action ship. That will throw off game balance. I can see why they did this: the mere ability to hide behind another ship’s shields to avoid fire is pretty mighty - keeping action economy up while doing so is game-changing. 

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18 minutes ago, jftanner said:

Thematically, it would probably make more sense to have damage effects and actions available while docked. Why can't you put out fires, calm down your pilot, etc in a hangar? And, similarly, what magical force (don't say Force) stops you from exploding in the hanger from a console fire?

From a game balance and rules simplicity standpoint, it makes sense. But it's a little odd when you think about it.

Maybe you do extinguish your console fire when you dock but in the spirit of fair play set it on fire again when you undock. 

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