Cat Clan, Moth Clan, and other minor Clans

[Daigotsu Max 35]

For me one of the biggest reveal of the core book is that not only we're getting a new official Minor Clan (the Cat), but that we're also getting confirmation DOZENS of other Minor Clans (including the Bat and the Moth). This is huge to me as previous editions had often danced around the fact that there might be more Clans than the commonly known ones (which is why I sneaked some more in 4th edition while I could ;) ). I hope we'll get some rules to create Minor Clan school at some point - a la Chapter creation rules from Deathwatch. It would be nice to populate Rokugan with more Clans.

[shosuko 2,174]

Yeah - I always liked the vision that the great clans really only controlled the economy within their boarders, and the main cities, but that smaller villiages were simply peasant towns, not really part of the clan proper - and that minor clans could actually control a good amount of the map one way or another in these smaller towns.

The GM pack comes with creation for 1 minor clan.  I hope they release a book full of them

Edited October 13, 2018 by shosuko

[Daigotsu Max 35]

1 minute ago, shosuko said:

Yeah - I always liked the vision that the great clans really only controlled the economy within their boarders, and the main cities, but that smaller villiages were simply peasant towns, not really part of the clan proper - and that minor clans could actually control a good amount of the map one way or another in these smaller towns.

 The GM pack comes with creation for 1 minor clan.  I hope they release a book full of them

The Tortoise yeah? The Mantis also got their rules in a PDF on this site.

[shosuko 2,174]

Oh, that's an updated version! cool!  I thought it was just left over from the beta lol.  Thx!

[TheHobgoblyn 352]

It seems to me the pdf packet that outlines the Mantis Clan and the core handbook together give one needs to create minor clans to one's hearts content.

You can pretty much work out the template of how things are broken down.

Anyway, the Emerald Empire book already has hints that it is going to have some more minor clan schools.

But it seems I need to purchase the GM screen in order to have access to the one that is most relevant to me.

[sndwurks 1,257]

Pardon me, I'm just over here, dreaming of a Moth Clan who are thanatologist physicians, quietly studying death in an entirely unmagical way just to gain a better understanding in how to preserve life.

[jeremysbrain 9]

5 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Pardon me, I'm just over here, dreaming of a Moth Clan who are thanatologist physicians, quietly studying death in an entirely unmagical way just to gain a better understanding in how to preserve life.

That would be weird considering the people of Rokugan know an afterlife exists and Samurai aren't supposed to fear death.   And considering Samurai aren't supposed to touch the dead how would they study it?

[sndwurks 1,257]

2 minutes ago, jeremysbrain said:

That would be weird considering the people of Rokugan know an afterlife exists and Samurai aren't supposed to fear death.   And considering Samurai aren't supposed to touch the dead how would they study it?

Who said death was anything to be afraid of? Except, you know, nearly everyone in the world is still afraid of death, and dying is pretty awful, messy business filled with dishonorable stuff. But still, the scholastic study of death, how it happens, how it can be prevented, along with the identities of the dead who might not be considered worthy of remembering (if your entire family line dies out, who is left to pay the proper respects to your spirit in the afterlife?), these are things that might be worth studying. Also, you do not need to touch the dead to study the dying. You have burakumin to do that for you, if you need to have it done at all.

After all, if there is knowledge to be gained by studying death that can be used to save lives (like an Emperor's life), does not that study have some value?

Mind you, that's not to say there would not be a stigma against this Minor Clan, and probably most would give them a wide berth because of the nature of their duty... but when you have an entire Great Clan of people putting on masks so they can be "Team Bad Guy!", and society accepts them for the distasteful but necessary good they bring, would they really have a problem with a Minor Clan studying death quietly, especially if that study allowed them to turn the other way and ignore it?

[jeremysbrain 9]

Quote

Who said death was anything to be afraid of?

Bushido.  It is part of the tenet of Courage.  The Fear of Death is destructive to Life.  Admitting you fear death would be a failure of Bushido.

I'm not saying that a clan couldn't do this but it would be a huge political slippery slop.   

It would make for a very interesting secret society though.

[sndwurks 1,257]

I am confused. Are you arguing against this Clan because samurai should not be afraid of death, or because they are and would never admit it? Because... that is sort of the entire purpose of this Clan. To understand death and dying. Not the afterlife. Just the end of this life, and to record the names and deeds of those who no longer have descendants to worship them. 

[TheHobgoblyn 352]

4 hours ago, jeremysbrain said:

Bushido.  It is part of the tenet of Courage.  The Fear of Death is destructive to Life.  Admitting you fear death would be a failure of Bushido.

I'm not saying that a clan couldn't do this but it would be a huge political slippery slop.   

It would make for a very interesting secret society though.

Simply because one should not fear death does not mean one should be eager to die if it does not advance the cause of their people.
A dead individual can no longer contribute anything, and that interferes with the tenet of Duty.

Thus, an individual should be kept alive and in good health as long as it is feasible to do so.

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

Agreed.

Objectively, anything which prevents a samurai - or, lets be fair, any other citizen of Rokugan (they do exist) - from performing their duty to their lord is bad, and anything which helps it is good (unless it causes them to fail in some other way).

Death, injury and illness are all bad things. Honourable death is to be aspired to but it's an honourable death if you've achieved as much for your lord as you possibly could.

The samurai who dies an honourable death is to be respected but their sibling who is injured, recovers, achieves even more for their lord and then dies an equally honourable death later is to be respected even more.

 

 

[Azrael40 3]

11 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Pardon me, I'm just over here, dreaming of a Moth Clan who are thanatologist physicians, quietly studying death in an entirely unmagical way just to gain a better understanding in how to preserve life.

Ouch, seems really too near with blood Magic and top far away from rokugani approach of dead bodies since hiuchiban attempts that originaires the imperial decree to burn deads.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

I can imagine this moth clan idea having close ties to the Shosuro.

[sndwurks 1,257]

2 hours ago, Azrael40 said:

Ouch, seems really too near with blood Magic and top far away from rokugani approach of dead bodies since hiuchiban attempts that originaires the imperial decree to burn deads.

Remember, there was an entire Minor Clan commissioned to study maho and how to combat it (though that did not end too well...). And see the point about the families who lose all their descendants and ancestor worship. Mind you, I am not saying they are not creepy AF. This Minor Clan would be a literal death omen. They show up only when people are going to die, in large enough numbers that something can be learned by the How of their deaths. Operating without the guidance of the kami, you'd effectively have them show up to disaster areas and battlefields, just quietly staying out of people's way, and maybe doing what good those who accept their help are willing to give.

23 minutes ago, ExplodingJoe said:

I can imagine this moth clan idea having close ties to the Shosuro.

I would expect so, and that the Shosuro are probably one of their most common supporters. "So, this is a new plant we discovered in this remote mountain village. We have tested it with jade, and it is not Tainted. However, anyone who eats its seeds has violent visions before their throat swells up and they choke to death. The locals thought it was an angry spirit. It was just a plant, Shosuro-sama."

[Azrael40 3]

For me, sounds like the original aim of Chuda, or the vilager shaman that uses a Good way of blood Magic on such a form of white Magic... all are legally blood Magic then subject of imperial decree, whatever the réalisations are good or the aim motivated for the Empire benefit.

 

[Hida Jitenno 586]

10 hours ago, jeremysbrain said:

That would be weird considering the people of Rokugan know an afterlife exists and Samurai aren't supposed to fear death.   And considering Samurai aren't supposed to touch the dead how would they study it?

I would justify it the same way as I justified a Klingon Doctor in my Star Trek game: death in battle is nothing to be afraid of, but a broken arm or the sniffleoos keep you away from battle/service. Therefore if the injury is non-lethal, getting it fixed up properly and promptly is in everyone's best interest.

[jeremysbrain 9]

13 hours ago, sndwurks said:

I am confused. Are you arguing against this Clan because samurai should not be afraid of death, or because they are and would never admit it? Because... that is sort of the entire purpose of this Clan. To understand death and dying. Not the afterlife. Just the end of this life, and to record the names and deeds of those who no longer have descendants to worship them. 

You said the clan would be thanatologist physicians who study death in an effort to prolong life.  Considering thanatology is a type of forensics, that absolutely would require them to inspect and handle dead bodies.  If not then they are just philosophers discussing death or people studying hospice and pallative care and not actual death.

My point was there are so many taboos about death and dead bodies and expectations about how Samurai deal with death that a clan that openly looks at death in a practical and scientific and evidence based way is basically a non-starter.  In Rokugan tradition trumps the desire for knowledge.  Some samurai might do it on the down-low, which is why I said this idea was better suited as a secret society than as a minor clan that has open sanction to conduct scientific studies on the dead.

Unless I'm just misunderstanding what you envision this clan actually doing and accomplishing.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

You could say the same thing about tainted creatures, and yet we still have the Kuni.

[sndwurks 1,257]

7 minutes ago, jeremysbrain said:

Unless I'm just misunderstanding what you envision this clan actually doing and accomplishing.

You somewhat are. As others have pointed out, having a group who study what modern Americans would call "medicine" by studying the dead and dying, can provide a great deal of advantages to those who are still alive. Furthermore, as anyone who has attended a surgery can tell you, there is a lot to be learned from observing someone handling the dead than from directly handling the dead yourself. Yes, there are specific taboos against death and dead bodies, but there are polite ways around these taboos. Honestly, if the Scorpion Clan can get away with literally being "We will stab you in the back!", disregarding all tenets of Bushido but one, the entire time, Minor Clans pushing a particular taboo in an area that no one really cares to pay attention does not cause me any cognitive dissonance.

There is also the entire aspect of collecting the identities of families which have died out. With ancestor worship being such an important part of religion, having a group who specifically documents these things OUTSIDE of the Lion Clan, would have some significant purpose.

I mean... considering Moths are literally death omens, what would YOU make the Moth Clan about?

[Hida Jitenno 586]

3 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I mean... considering Moths are literally death omens, what would YOU make the Moth Clan about?

TAAAAAAAINT

Ahem.

What I mean to say is, when I made a Moth Clan, it was a clan of the Lost, inspired by the Ashura, who had moth wings. They were a highly martial clan, like a dark mirror of the Lion.

4 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

[A]s anyone who has attended a surgery can tell you, there is a lot to be learned from observing someone handling the dead than from directly handling the dead yourself. Yes, there are specific taboos against death and dead bodies, but there are polite ways around these taboos. Honestly, if the Scorpion Clan can get away with literally being "We will stab you in the back!", disregarding all tenets of Bushido but one, the entire time, Minor Clans pushing a particular taboo in an area that no one really cares to pay attention does not cause me any cognitive dissonance.

There is also the entire aspect of collecting the identities of families which have died out. With ancestor worship being such an important part of religion, having a group who specifically documents these things OUTSIDE of the Lion Clan, would have some significant purpose.

As I think I've indicated above, though, I completely agree with you, and like the concept you've created a lot!

[fbtn 0]

The Kuni do not practise Maho or use corpses. Only Eta are to manipulate death body or blood or flesh. The only Kuni that did that became Maho Tsukai and/or died.

A such clan would be mostly an Eta constituted one, a blasfema vs celestial order, a thing that cannot be allowed to exist within Rokugan except concealed and mostly tainted. The only way to exist for such a clan could only be far outside the Empire.

You talked about mirroring the Lion, how could a minor clan mirror the Lion without being erased by lions? That mirroring would be a thing that no lion could suffer within the Empire. Nobody either the Emperor could assume the political cost to protect such a clan vs Lion. And Lion is not really known for being the most subtle amongst the clans.

Edited October 15, 2018 by fbtn

[Hida Jitenno 586]

10 minutes ago, fbtn said:

You talked about mirroring the Lion, how could a minor clan mirror the Lion without being erased by lions? That mirroring would be a thing that no lion could suffer within the Empire. Nobody either the Emperor could assume the political cost to protect such a clan vs Lion. And Lion is not really known for being the most subtle amongst the clans.

To be clear, my Moth Clan has nothing to do with @sndwurks Moth Clan.

Here's how it worked in my game: They were a clan of Lost who lived in the deep Shadowlands. The Lion did not erase them because the Lion had no working knowledge of how to campaign across the Shadowlands, through the Wall of Bone, and launch a frontal assault on the Pit of Fu Leng.

[ExplodingJoe 131]

The Kuni absolutely do handle corpses and tainted material. They carry headhunter bags for the purpose of collecting tainted samples for processing in rituals and experiments. Many of the other clans wholesale don't believe they aren't corrupted by this, and just take it on faith that the Hida allow them to continue business as usual.

Edited October 15, 2018 by ExplodingJoe

[jeremysbrain 9]

1 hour ago, sndwurks said:

I mean... considering Moths are literally death omens, what would YOU make the Moth Clan about?

In Polynesian cultures the moth is a sign that a ghost or spirit is nearby or that an ancestor has returned to visit you.  So I could see the Moth clan being a family of shugs that specialize in ghosts.  Or if playing an alternate Imperial History (like Togashi Dynasty), the Moth clan might be made up of returned spirits.

Edit: Moth clan would also be a good name for a group of fatalistic or nihilistic bushi or a group of Samurai that reject Fortunism and believe ancestor worship is the only form of religion worth devoting to.

Edited October 15, 2018 by jeremysbrain