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ForceM

The A-wing is where they dropped the ball

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53 minutes ago, Okapi said:

Veteran Instincts was a mistake, and removing it was **** near necessary for the health of the game.

I didn’t say the contrary. But then they need to take the right decisions about pilot initiative right away. Which they didn’t in case of the A-Wing

19 minutes ago, Icelom said:

X-wings are arc dodgers... They even have a ps 6 ship with access to both boost and barrel roll. (scum has no one that's any more arc dodgy than that)

Is Soontir fel really crushing out the meta right now? because there is only 1 double reposition ship in the game that's greater then ps 4 and that's soontir. Where are these other factions arc dodgers that are causing the rebels to be "really hurting"?. For single repositioners, rebels have tons of choice.

 

 

 

Yeah fine that X-Wings are finally competitive. A-Wings are not. And that’s what the thread is for. You could also argue that the Fang is more arc dodgy than an X-Wing, and the Starviper can also be with Microthrusters, unless we take Supernatural Luke.

And yes, Soontir makes the top tables a lot. At barely over 50 points, he is very competitively priced. Whisper is essentially also double repositioning with decloak if you want. And doing very well too!

Who said that Rebels are «really hurting» by the way. I think it wasn’t me?

It’s off topic, but i think they have indeed a little problem when it comes to Aces at the moment. It’s only X-Wings pretty much. Corran must be unplayable, if even Nathan Eide isn’t picking him right now. And what else do they have in that category? So it’s really only Luke and Wedge. They have no agility 3 ace playable right now. But that’s where we get back to topic. If we only had an A-Wing Ace

Edited by ForceM

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15 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Luke called, he wants to let you know he won't be coming in your arc ever.

 

Just because you played ps11 tycho didn't mean it was good.  The a wing got made significantly better, and the only thing it may have lost of any significant value was snap shot.  Complaining about losing ace awings is similar to complaining about losing lt. Lorries in the interceptor.  It wasn't really ever good, and it wasn't what the ship did.  However, I have realized my mistake.  You want to be angry, not figure out how to use an A-wing.

Jake was very good with the right build, even competitive. Now he isn’t anymore. Too many I5 ace lists, and they ruin I4 wannabe Aces.

Tycho was not that great, but if he needs to go only because he is legends, there are a lot of pilots and cards that would need to disappear. Wouldn’t have hurt anyone either if he had stayed.

I have already well established lorewise why A-Wings should be playable as arc-dodging Interceptors and would need higher Initiative for it. Gamewise there are even more reasons. Rebels don’t have anything fulfilling that role at the moment, and since they are pretty monotonous with only X-Wings really playable, the variety wouldn’t hurt either.

Your mistake was actually also a different one. That you didn’t even understand or bother to read what i wrote at first, and now you come with l2p A-Wings? I have, and i am less impressed than in 1.0 even.

Have you? Can you honestly tell me that it’s performing great for you?

Or do you just not care about it and want to leave it in the dumpster it is in right now for some obscure reason?

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38 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Luke called, he wants to let you know he won't be coming in your arc ever.

 

Just because you played ps11 tycho didn't mean it was good.  The a wing got made significantly better, and the only thing it may have lost of any significant value was snap shot.  Complaining about losing ace awings is similar to complaining about losing lt. Lorries in the interceptor.  It wasn't really ever good, and it wasn't what the ship did.  However, I have realized my mistake.  You want to be angry, not figure out how to use an A-wing.

There is no "figuring out". It's just a mediocre blocker, which is the issue. It's boring and limited and is not better. All it got was a barrel roll, but it lost real autothrusters, real PTL, and real proton rockets. I've tested the generics and aces and they are just decent at best, which is why I'm so miffed. There is no rebel list right now that can be improved by dropping something and adding an A-Wing because they just don't do much. 

Not to mention the fact that I bought the A-Wing expansion, And Rebel Aces (Or should it have been named "Rebel Blockers"?), and finally the conversion kit all just so that I can have A-Wings not be competitive again.

I really think the only people who are saying that it's good right now are the people who don't play rebels and didn't play A-Wings in 1.0. If the A-Wing was in a good place, like the Phantom or the X-Wing is, it would be self evident in the results of events and in the discussions of players. I really really want it to be good because I loved flying Jake and 1.0, but everytime he get's on the table, it just feels like a misallocation of the points for not much of a reward. I don't know why so many people are denying that Jake was an Ace in 1.0. He was competitive and was on the top tables at worlds, but I guess all of the people who flew Jake like that were wrong because I guess that great arc dodging ship that moved at a high PS, had access to boost and barrel roll as well as a token stack, as well as a number of other tools was really just a blocker after all. 

The aspect that does make me angry is that now instead of being able to build my A-wings as arc dodgers or blockers, FFG took away my abiltiy to choose, so now it's essentially blockers or nothing.

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39 minutes ago, ForceM said:

I didn’t say the contrary. But then they need to take the right decisions about pilot initiative right away. Which they didn’t in case of the A-Wing

Yeah fine that X-Wings are finally competitive. A-Wings are not. And that’s what the thread is for. You could also argue that the Fang is more arc dodgy than an X-Wing, and the Starviper can also be with Microthrusters, unless we take Supernatural Luke.

And yes, Soontir makes the top tables a lot. At barely over 50 points, he is very competitively priced. Whisper is essentially also double repositioning with decloak if you want. And doing very well too!

Who said that Rebels are «really hurting» by the way. I think it wasn’t me?

It’s off topic, but i think they have indeed a little problem when it comes to Aces at the moment. It’s only X-Wings pretty much. Corran must be unplayable, if even Nathan Eide isn’t picking him right now. And what else do they have in that category? So it’s really only Luke and Wedge. They have no agility 3 ace playable right now. But that’s where we get back to topic. If we only had an A-Wing Ace

The thing is though, it is competitive. Just not in the way you want it to be. If you really want to play arc-dodging, hard hitting, high initiative aces, those exist, but in the form of Soontir Fel, Whisper, Darth Vader, Fenn Rau, Old Teroch, Guri and to a certain extent Luke Skywalker. The A-Wing (and other interceptors like the Scyk and the TIE Advanced v1) does something different, and can definitely do it well, but not if you try to play it like an I6 TIE Interceptor.

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8 minutes ago, Okapi said:

The thing is though, it is competitive. Just not in the way you want it to be. If you really want to play arc-dodging, hard hitting, high initiative aces, those exist, but in the form of Soontir Fel, Whisper, Darth Vader, Fenn Rau, Old Teroch, Guri and to a certain extent Luke Skywalker. The A-Wing (and other interceptors like the Scyk and the TIE Advanced v1) does something different, and can definitely do it well, but not if you try to play it like an I6 TIE Interceptor.

It isn't competitive. In fact, it is less competitive than it was in 1.0. for all of the reasons that people have brought forth. It was good when it was packs of them making use of their low initiative, double EPTs (snap and crack) or as one of, super dodgy affordable ace in the form of Jake Farrell. Neither one of those builds can be ran anymore, so all that we're really left with are the little blockers who are at a point cost (30 - 38ish) where they get compared to the likes of AP-5, the attack Shuttle, Blount, and Y-wings who ultimately bring a little bit more to the table, yet can still block.

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24 minutes ago, Okapi said:

The thing is though, it is competitive. Just not in the way you want it to be. If you really want to play arc-dodging, hard hitting, high initiative aces, those exist, but in the form of Soontir Fel, Whisper, Darth Vader, Fenn Rau, Old Teroch, Guri and to a certain extent Luke Skywalker. The A-Wing (and other interceptors like the Scyk and the TIE Advanced v1) does something different, and can definitely do it well, but not if you try to play it like an I6 TIE Interceptor.

It’s a fine blocker. Not the best in the game (maybe not even in faction) but it does it well.

You do realize that Rebels as per your list only have one, maybe „to an extent“ ace of the sort you describe?

Then why can it not be the A-Wing aiding to perform this Role. It has to be either that or the E-Wing. (Spoiler alert: It’s NOT the E-Wing either, Corran doesn’t cut it atm.)

That’s what i ask for here. To widen its role and leave the generics as good blockers, but make the high end pilots playable as aces too.

Unless the mission really was to eliminate Rebel aces from the meta. But that would be a really dumb thing to do. Especially from the selling standpoint if you want to get new players to the table. Rebels are the heroes of Star Wars. They can not tell anyone that they have no heroic extremely skilled aces because of faction identity. Having exceptional pilots is PART of their faction identity since the first movie came out, and any ship that was on the big screen at the battle of Endor should have at least one high Initiative pilot. This must be part of Rebel faction identity, just as well as the self sacrifice and support thing.

Scyk and Advanced V1 have I5+ pilots too. Btw. So if we compare it to that like you want us to, it’s even more of an argument that the A-Wing should have one too. It’s the ONLY Agility 3 ship, the ONLY purebreed Interceptor in the game without a PS5 pilot!

Edited by ForceM

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1 hour ago, ForceM said:

Who said that Rebels are «really hurting» by the way. I think it wasn’t me?

Ya not everything is about you, shocker.

I literally quoted the person who said that when I responded. That's who I was responding to and that is who said it. Not sure how I could have been more clear.

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58 minutes ago, ForceM said:

It’s a fine blocker. Not the best in the game (maybe not even in faction) but it does it well.

What? There are no other double repositioning ships, and no more open dials.

What's the better blocker in the faction? In the game it's the tie interceptor (slightly more flexible double repositioning).

 

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1 hour ago, ForceM said:

It’s a fine blocker. Not the best in the game (maybe not even in faction) but it does it well.

You do realize that Rebels as per your list only have one, maybe „to an extent“ ace of the sort you describe?

Then why can it not be the A-Wing aiding to perform this Role. It has to be either that or the E-Wing. (Spoiler alert: It’s NOT the E-Wing either, Corran doesn’t cut it atm.)

That’s what i ask for here. To widen its role and leave the generics as good blockers, but make the high end pilots playable as aces too.

Unless the mission really was to eliminate Rebel aces from the meta. But that would be a really dumb thing to do. Especially from the selling standpoint if you want to get new players to the table. Rebels are the heroes of Star Wars. They can not tell anyone that they have no heroic extremely skilled aces because of faction identity. Having exceptional pilots is PART of their faction identity since the first movie came out, and any ship that was on the big screen at the battle of Endor should have at least one high Initiative pilot. This must be part of Rebel faction identity, just as well as the self sacrifice and support thing.

Scyk and Advanced V1 have I5+ pilots too. Btw. So if we compare it to that like you want us to, it’s even more of an argument that the A-Wing should have one too. It’s the ONLY Agility 3 ship, the ONLY purebreed Interceptor in the game without a PS5 pilot!

I never said the A-Wing shouldn't have an I5 pilot, just that it doesn't strictly need one to be playable. The blocker role is an obvious one, but besides that: Even it tops out at I4, doesn't that still mean you can play Jake like the Soontir Fel you obviously want him to be against ships at I3 and lower? And say he was I5 like you're asking; against Fel and Vader it would make absolutely no difference. If your bid was a bit lower than your opponents, he'd have to go first against Guri and Boba anyway.

The Scyk and the v1 do indeed have I5 pilots, but that doesn't fundamentally change the ships' role. Besides, I'd spend 40 points on Jake over 58 on the Grand Inquisitor any day. The generic Inquisitor is quite possibly my favourite pilot in 2.0 so far, and he's pretty similar to Jake in both stats, dial, action bar and action economy, and funnily enough has the exact same cost. Barely had a bad game with this guy, but then I never just chuck him at the enemy as if he were a Bomber or an X-Wing, or expect him to reliably outmaneuver Guri and Luke.

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58 minutes ago, Okapi said:

 The generic Inquisitor is quite possibly my favourite pilot in 2.0 so far, and he's pretty similar to Jake in both stats, dial, action bar and action economy, and funnily enough has the exact same cost. 

Yep that's my favorite ship by far, insanely good. And extremely comparable to Jake.

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2 hours ago, Icelom said:

What? There are no other double repositioning ships, and no more open dials.

What's the better blocker in the faction? In the game it's the tie interceptor (slightly more flexible double repositioning).

 

No, it's CLEARLY the scum falcon.  Jumpmaster 2.0 amiright?

Back to the A-wing.  I have played it, more specifically the generics.  It was in quite literally the first 2.0 f same I played, and it did quite well.  The ship is fantastic, and the pilot abilities are as well.  It offers on of the best ways to get double mods, and can even net 4 actions for a squad.  You want it to be an interceptor, and it is.  I'm going out on a (very short) limb here and saying that you think you need to move last to win.  YOU DO NOT.  An ace can move first, and still win, if you know how to use them.  I have played A-wings, and did in 1.0 as well.  They only fail if you attempt to out joust an opponent, or get too fancy with them.

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4 hours ago, ForceM said:

Unless the mission really was to eliminate Rebel aces from the meta. But that would be a really dumb thing to do. Especially from the selling standpoint if you want to get new players to the table. Rebels are the heroes of Star Wars. They can not tell anyone that they have no heroic extremely skilled aces because of faction identity.

1. Luke called,he wanted me to remind you that he's double repositioning behind you.

2. Luke called again, wants to make sure you know he is in the core set.

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2 hours ago, Test Pilot said:

Out of curiosity, how are yall building out a generic Inquisitor? Bare bones? @Okapi too?

Fire Control + Homing missiles

Fire Control + Proton rockets

But it really does not need those upgrades, the only reason its got fire control on there is that fire control is dirt cheap, and when you do get a chance to grab a lock it's nice to have. (or have a way to get the lock jendon for example).

But they are really good naked as well. They are just an efficient and obnoxious ship, that single force every turn is just obnoxious to your opponent, no matter what you are sitting with mods, often focus +force and that lets you modify well twice on defense or once on defense once on offense while still repositioning.

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4 hours ago, Test Pilot said:

Out of curiosity, how are yall building out a generic Inquisitor? Bare bones? @Okapi too?

I've tried a few things, with varying degrees of success. He's fine naked, but I always get an itch to stick on some upgrades. So far I've tried these:

Heightened Perception: Not great. I thought firing at I7 would help it out against high I aces (thread relevant, I guess), but in most cases I found that either I wasn't getting shot at all, in which case it wouldn't be relevant, or I wouldn't be able to take them out, and so I'd rather have the token for defense.

Sense: This one is expensive, but potentially really good if you have some way to take advantage of it. If you've got Strikers, Interceptors and especially Phantoms, it's great, but tricky to use.

Homing Missiles: The ship has no linked lock (same issue as Jake), so you either have to rely on the force token for defense, or grab the lock when you're behind the enemy, or on the way out of the first engagement. When you have it though, it's great. 1 auto damage on Guri, with no dice rolled and no tokens spent? Great! Fully modded four dice attack with no range bonus? Great!

Fire-Control System: Same as HM, mostly. This is probably my upgrade of choice if you're only getting one though, as it takes less time to set up, and works at R1, where the ship really shines. In my experience it's best to just single out a target (ideally one with agility 0-2) and hug that rather than switch around. With low I interceptors (and I've concluded on this with both v1s, A-Wings, Interceptors, Fangs and StarVipers*) I nearly always want to do a sharp blue, reposition to wherever I'm mostly likely to block someone and/or get a shot, and focus. Getting greedy and going for the lock up close is dangerous, and I've burned myself on that many times. Four hits > three blanks > dead Inquisitor is not THAT uncommon, so make that reposition count.

Supernatural Reflexes is way too expensive for a 40 point ship. I've tried it on the Grand, and while he's hilarious to fly (roll, focus, stress, 1-turn, clear stress, roll), he gets expensive real quick for a ship with only a 2-dice attack. Instinctive Aim I've never seen used on any ship, but if we get a decent missile (and I hope we will, since missiles are currently much weaker than torpedos, which I think is partly the reason why v1s, x1s and A-Wings are considered weak right now), it might see play. Advanced Sensors could be fun, but again, expensive, and with low I you'll want to link. I've personally never tried Clusters or Concussions, but on paper they seem weak. Proton Rockets are interesting, but with FCS you've now suddenly hit 50 points, the attack only works once, and is tricky to line up. Though, now that I think about it, it could potentially be strong against Boba and especially Redline. Might try it out.

I'm not saying v1s and A-Wings are the best ships in the meta, far from it, they are tricky to fly and often just die randomly, but they are fun to fly, can hit hard, and I do think they are more or less perfectly costed. They're the Bloodborne to the X-Wing's God of War. :P I think they're only going to get more interesting as we get more talents, force talents, systems, mods (give the A-Wing a mod slot!) and especially missiles.

* And it really irritates me that E-Wings and TIE Aggressors can't focus and roll/boost.

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Thats interesting! I've been tossing a couple of the generic Barons in my lists lately with Marksmanship and Prockets.  After that first 5 dice attacks they don't do a whole lot, but they are annoying little cockroaches.  I haven't felt that they're hitting at a 40pt level though.  Yall may be changing my mind with the Inquisitors.  I need to give them a shot!

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5 hours ago, Okapi said:

Supernatural Reflexes is way too expensive for a 40 point ship. I've tried it on the Grand, and while he's hilarious to fly (roll, focus, stress, 1-turn, clear stress, roll),

Where does the second roll come from?

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I'm wondering about generic inq with instinctive aim and homing missiles. Roll/focus and they either take a damage or four dice with a focus.

As for A wings, I messed around with four procket phoenix flown in the finger four formation in fly casual and they're still intimidating. Snap shot would be good to let them board control more than the bullseye laser grid.

Of course I messed up maneuvering then they died but prockets in formation is terrifying, you do NOT want to guess wrong and end up in front of it. Brutal to shuttles.

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On 10/21/2018 at 11:06 PM, Icelom said:

What? There are no other double repositioning ships, and no more open dials.

What's the better blocker in the faction? In the game it's the tie interceptor (slightly more flexible double repositioning).

 

The better blocker in faction is any ship that is cheaper. If you need a blocker, you want to pay an absolute minimum. The BR/Boost is nice but already inefficient at the cost. The reason is that in a lot of cases you don’t need a double reposition to block if you know what you are doing. But when you do, it’s of course nice to have. As i said its good, not the best because i prefer to have the points rather than the double repo. So yes, i prefer Bandit Squadron pilot or maybe Zeb Orrelios as you save 4 or 7 points. 7 Points that’s nearly the addition of a proton torp, or other valuable upgrade on your actual heavy hitters. And in a lot of cases you get or don’t get the block anyway...

The best blocker in the game is the Quadjumper. Cheaper than an A, and the Tractor action that enables real traffic jams. You don’t even need to block the ship physically, just be in arc R1 to annoy people.

The basic Interceptor is imho even less efficent. Its 3 attack dice and their cost seem a waste when only blocking. The 1 less hp is also a bad tradeoff.

Edited by ForceM

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On 10/22/2018 at 2:32 AM, Do I need a Username said:

1. Luke called,he wanted me to remind you that he's double repositioning behind you.

2. Luke called again, wants to make sure you know he is in the core set.

Yeah, but where are the second and third ace for such a list?

Most play Wedge, but he can’t be considered as a real ace. He lacks defense and repositioning.

the other factions can pretty easily do double ace with support, or triple ace. Rebels can’t.

Edited by ForceM

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1 hour ago, ForceM said:

The better blocker in faction is any ship that is cheaper. If you need a blocker, you want to pay an absolute minimum. The BR/Boost is nice but already inefficient at the cost. The reason is that in a lot of cases you don’t need a double reposition to block if you know what you are doing. But when you do, it’s of course nice to have. As i said its good, not the best because i prefer to have the points rather than the double repo. So yes, i prefer Bandit Squadron pilot or maybe Zeb Orrelios as you save 4 or 7 points. 7 Points that’s nearly the addition of a proton torp, or other valuable upgrade on your actual heavy hitters. And in a lot of cases you get or don’t get the block anyway...

The best blocker in the game is the Quadjumper. Cheaper than an A, and the Tractor action that enables real traffic jams. You don’t even need to block the ship physically, just be in arc R1 to annoy people.

The basic Interceptor is imho even less efficent. Its 3 attack dice and their cost seem a waste when only blocking. The 1 less hp is also a bad tradeoff.

Not sure how to respond, if you don't see the value in a fast and open dial with a double action (double repositioning or token plus repositioning) in a blocker then you playing a different game then me.

There is no better blocker then something that can go 5 straight into a boost with a focus. If all you are doing with a blocker is blocking and not shooting then enjoy your losses. A good blocker blocks while still accomplishing something else and the a-wing and tie/in are the absolute best at this.

Not taking anything away from the quad I used them quite a bit in first edition and enjoy it in second but it's a very different ship that flies very differently.

 

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1 hour ago, ForceM said:

Yeah, but where are the second and third ace for such a list?

Most play Wedge, but he can’t be considered as a real ace. He lacks defense and repositioning.

the other factions can pretty easily do double ace with support, or triple ace. Rebels can’t.

Sabine is also calling.  Fenn Rau also wanted me to remind you that he is I6 and has coordinate.

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1 hour ago, ForceM said:

Yeah, but where are the second and third ace for such a list?

Most play Wedge, but he can’t be considered as a real ace. He lacks defense and repositioning.

the other factions can pretty easily do double ace with support, or triple ace. Rebels can’t.

Some things are just Aces that move first. I disagree with the notion that i3 and i4 things can't be aces. 

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9 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Not sure how to respond, if you don't see the value in a fast and open dial with a double action (double repositioning or token plus repositioning) in a blocker then you playing a different game then me.

There is no better blocker then something that can go 5 straight into a boost with a focus.

 

Even just 5 straight boost is brilliant.  Out of range -> Blocking is pretty good.

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