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The A-wing is where they dropped the ball

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Or, or, now hear me out, maybe that they did not design all the stuff for the old ships for the conversion kits. That certain restrictions prevented them from getting all the old stuff in. 

Which, btw, we still do not know how they are going to handle the extra pilots and the upgrades, when it comes to the later re-releases. I think outright assuming that we will have to buy full expansions is a bit of a leap. 

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Alright here’s my idea that I haven’t heard yet. Replace vectored thrusters with this: Treat all hostile ships in your (V) (front arc) as though they were in your bullseye arc. And give the A-wing another talent slot. Make crackshot, predator and proton rockets awesome again!

Edited by Tvboy

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46 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Alright here’s my idea that I haven’t heard yet. Replace vectored thrusters with this: Treat all hostile ships in your (V) (front arc) as though they were in your bullseye arc. And give the A-wing another talent slot. Make crackshot, predator and proton rockets awesome again!

Up the chassis cost by 15 pts while you're at it.

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They honestly just needed to give it 3 red dice and call it a day. Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to really happen ever, so they'll probably just slap another missile slot on it so it can take barrage rockets. 3 Dice, 4 HP doesn't break the game on a Fang or a Striker, so I don't see why it would break the game on an A-Wing. It also could stand to see restoration of its double talent slot, so that Hera can take both outmaneuver and elusive when they release her. For the time being, the pros of the A-Wing simply do not outweigh its cons.

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12 hours ago, Sithborg said:

I think outright assuming that we will have to buy full expansions is a bit of a leap. 

While I know we've had statements that make it seem we won't have to do this... FFG has done some frustrating things and have sometimes gone against things they've said (or at least were believed to have said) before and I wouldn't be surprised.

9 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Replace vectored thrusters with this:

This sentence is one of the issues I have with your idea.

Plus, what you replaced it with really would make the ship's cost go up and I think that is the opposite of most of our desires, and counter to what the A-Wing seems to be in lore.

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24 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

This sentence is one of the issues I have with your idea.

Plus, what you replaced it with really would make the ship's cost go up and I think that is the opposite of most of our desires, and counter to what the A-Wing seems to be in lore.

Don’t increase the cost. Vectored thrusters is a dumb ability anyway. Moving fast for the sake of moving fast isn’t worth a stress the majority of the time. Until they give us an I5 pilot or missiles that aren’t garbage, the A-Wing is a jouster. Give it back its jousting tools. 

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This thread ought to be renamed "Every rebel ship not named Luke is where they dropped the ball". Sure, there are some decent stand-outs like Wedge, Sabine, and Thane, but in comparison to what Imperials and to a lesser degree, Scum, have access to at the moment, the faction is a dumpster fire. I don't know who thought that it would be okay to give imperials such an insane amount of dice and health, while Rebels can't even fly 5 generic X-wings because that would be unfair. If you set up rebels across from Barrage Bombers, Redline, Whisper, or any of the other under-priced imperials, you are playing a game that is rigged against you.  I'm tempted to pick-up a scum conversion and a Fang just so I can actually start winning games through maneuvers, actions, and positioning rather than just losing because of the list builder again.

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Holy crap guys.

They literally just made it so they can adjust point costs on the fly and you're ALREADY begging for changes to text?! Text changes are the clunkiest, most disruptive way of balancing the game, and I for one would be glad to see them only touch it in extreme cases where a mechanic is broken at any reasonable cost.

If A-wings are really that useless, all they have to do is drop them a couple of points. I think a 2-point decrease across the pilots would go a long way, especially given the lack of options Rebels have in that price range.

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8 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

If A-wings are really that useless, all they have to do is drop them a couple of points. I think a 2-point decrease across the pilots would go a long way, especially given the lack of options Rebels have in that price range

They would need to drop the price of Scyks accordingly. A-Wings have a better dial and action availability than Scyks...

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2 hours ago, Giledhil said:

They just made a new edition nerfing stacked defenses and reinforce action, so that 2 dice attacks mean something again. I'd rather see other options to make those ships matter.


But do they matter again?  I mean, the Coruscant results certainly revealed almost no 2-Die Attack ships present, and about the only one getting any love is the ultra-cheap Quad-Jumper which is more of a filler utility blocker that throws out tractor tokens.  There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but they tend to be 2-Attack ships that have ways to boost their attack value or deal other means of damage (e.g. bombs, barrage rockets, etc.).

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1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

If you set up rebels across from Barrage Bombers, Redline, Whisper, or any of the other under-priced imperials, you are playing a game that is rigged against you.

I set up Rebels across from Redline and Whisper, along with Deathrain, and won. It may have been an uphill fight, but you’re making a fairly broad statement that isn’t well backed up.

And no, I wasn’t flying a single Rebel that you listed as an exception.

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43 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


But do they matter again?  I mean, the Coruscant results certainly revealed almost no 2-Die Attack ships present, and about the only one getting any love is the ultra-cheap Quad-Jumper which is more of a filler utility blocker that throws out tractor tokens.  There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but they tend to be 2-Attack ships that have ways to boost their attack value or deal other means of damage (e.g. bombs, barrage rockets, etc.).

At least they arent nullified like they used to be.

They still need to be cheap or have something more (TIE fighter squad synergy,  bombs, prockets, etc. ). That's why I'm all for the return of the dual Talent for the A-wing. 

But getting 3 dice easily like barrage rockets is an error imo; this upgrade tends to be an auto include for ships who can take it., and just make them another 3 dice jouster.

Edited by Giledhil

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53 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They would need to drop the price of Scyks accordingly. A-Wings have a better dial and action availability than Scyks...

Cross-faction comparisons are tricky. While I agree A-wings would win in the one-on-one comparison with a naked Scyk in that case, that doesn't necessarily mean Scyks wouldn't be efficient enough for the role they play in Scum lists. "Cheap cannon carrier" may be worth the slightly less efficient chassis.

 

Edit: My gut tells me that small point adjustments, especially decreases, should be focused on within faction balance (making sure this pilot/upgrade has a role to play within a faction). Larger point adjustments, especially increases, should be focused on across faction balance (making sure this pilot/upgrade is not skewing the overall meta game and putting certain factions at a disadvantage). But that's just a thought and I'm not a game designer so....

Edited by WAC47

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1 minute ago, WAC47 said:

Cross-faction comparisons are tricky. While I agree A-wings would win in the one-on-one comparison with a naked Scyk in that case, that doesn't necessarily mean Scyks wouldn't be efficient enough for the role they play in Scum lists. "Cheap cannon carrier" may be worth the slightly less efficient chassis.

1. You missed the "Tinfoil" and secondary part in "Cheap tinfoil secondary carrier".

2. If you want to bring empty slots into the equation, I'll raise you A-Wing = cheap, extremely quick, and agile missile boat...

3. Cross faction comparisons are not as tricky as you state and are necessary to try and achieve/maintain balance between the factions...

Charging premiums for empty slots is bull, or did you like the 2 point "tax" on the bare A-Wing after Chardan Refit came out.

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I had hoped that the designers would lean into the idea of having super speedy little buggers zipping around, and give them something like the ability to use a 2-speed template when they perform a boost.  That would make them phenomenal at flanking and getting to where they are needing on the map (or bugging out when necessary).

As it is, I haven't tried any A-Wings in my games yet...  I will get around to trying them in a game at some point, I suppose.  I do look forward to having more ace options when they release the next expansion.

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4 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

This thread ought to be renamed "Every rebel ship not named Luke is where they dropped the ball". Sure, there are some decent stand-outs like Wedge, Sabine, and Thane, but in comparison to what Imperials and to a lesser degree, Scum, have access to at the moment, the faction is a dumpster fire. I don't know who thought that it would be okay to give imperials such an insane amount of dice and health, while Rebels can't even fly 5 generic X-wings because that would be unfair. If you set up rebels across from Barrage Bombers, Redline, Whisper, or any of the other under-priced imperials, you are playing a game that is rigged against you.  I'm tempted to pick-up a scum conversion and a Fang just so I can actually start winning games through maneuvers, actions, and positioning rather than just losing because of the list builder again.

Unsubstantiated whining about faction bias does not a discussion make.

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The A-wing named pilots are at least useable. Albeit not amazing. Blocking with arvel is fun and token passing is great with Jake. 

I feel like the "dropped the ball" award should go to the Tie Advanced V1. I cant justify flying any of those pilots. Something just feels wrong about the linked actions or something or the pricing. I dunno what id change. The linked target lock -> evade would be a good start...

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On 10/16/2018 at 9:26 PM, Do I need a Username said:

I think 4 + 2z is the way to go right now.

Now this is interesting. Upthread I mentioned a squad I used that contained 3 Phoenix Sq. Pilots with Concussion Missiles. As I thought about it more, I realized that I may have been able to save 21 points by using Bandit Sq. Pilots instead. It really got me wondering, "What are the differences that make the A-wing more expensive than the Z-95? Do I value those differences?"

For me, the most valuable difference is the dial. I was watching one of the Coruscant Invitational games streamed by Gold Squadron, and a Z-95 had to do a dangerous K-turn close to a rock because it didn't have a Segnor's Loop. Segnor's loops can really open up options if you know when to use them, and is probably my favorite addition to the A-wing. Blue 2-speed turns are also a boon (one we are very familiar with), as is the ability to perform a 1-speed turn + barrel roll + boost. I dig that kind of maneuverability.

The second big difference is the increased agility, which is kind of a mixed bag, I suppose. Honestly, green dice love me, or at least that's the way my opponents and I see it. They seem to fail me only after they've bailed me out a bunch. If you ask me, the increase from 2 agility to 3 agility is worth at least 3 points, with the increase in maneuverability worth another 3-4 points. Those things combined sell it for me.

One caveat is missiles. I just don't know about how valuable they are for a ship that depends on it's green dice. If you're taking shots, you really should be focusing instead of locking, especially if you are initiative 1. Bodhi Rook helps this problem because you can often get locks out of range if just one of your ships is in range of the opponent. Then they can come in with lock and focus. But even without Bodhi or action-stacking abilities, my gut tells me that A-wings are zippy enough that you can get away with the "beta strike," beginning combat with a focus, and then taking locks of opportunity to follow. Still need to test this more. Those low-initiative pilots really do suffer against hypermobile ships like Supernatural Force users, but Vectored Thrusters seems to me to be a great way to just deny Trajectory Simulator users.

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I would much rather see A-wings be defensively strong not offensively. In any video game I have played with them in it they are stupid hard to hit but in return hit back like wet noodles. Maybe something like a title along the lines of if you end your move in an enemy arc you can get a free evade action. Still vulnerable to focus fire and bumping but opens up all your actions for repositioning. A wings are daggers not broad swords. Fast and hard to disarm but it takes a lot of cuts to bring an enemy down with them.

Edited by LordFajubi

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5 hours ago, LordFajubi said:

I would much rather see A-wings be defensively strong not offensively. In any video game I have played with them in it they are stupid hard to hit but in return hit back like wet noodles. Maybe something like a title along the lines of if you end your move in an enemy arc you can get a free evade action. Still vulnerable to focus fire and bumping but opens up all your actions for repositioning. A wings are daggers not broad swords. Fast and hard to disarm but it takes a lot of cuts to bring an enemy down with them.

There's always Elusive. It works better on low initiate pilots than high, especially if you always focus. The 3-sloops help with recharging too 

Edited by Okapi

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9 hours ago, Parakitor said:

Now this is interesting. Upthread I mentioned a squad I used that contained 3 Phoenix Sq. Pilots with Concussion Missiles. As I thought about it more, I realized that I may have been able to save 21 points by using Bandit Sq. Pilots instead. It really got me wondering, "What are the differences that make the A-wing more expensive than the Z-95? Do I value those differences?"

This is exactly the right question to ask! In other words “Are 3 A-wings worth roughly 4-Z-95s?” 

 

I came to the opposite conclusion you did. Mainly because maneuverability does nothing to fulfill the win condition in and of itself, and I don’t think the A-wings superior maneuverability results in significantly more rounds on target/blocks/denied shots than would be the case with a Z-95. And I do not have the same blessed green dice you do :P But obviously that’s just me, you and others may have different experiences! 

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