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ForceM

The A-wing is where they dropped the ball

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Supernatural Luke, or Sabine in attack shuttle seem both pretty fun and arc-dodgey to me. Both are being heavily played in Rebel lists right now.

I agree that A-wings are a bit lackluster at the moment, but there is definitely no need for panic since they will surely get a bunch of new pilots once they're reprinted.

And Jake or Arvel are both quite interesting even today..

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23 hours ago, ForceM said:

And the first tournaments show us that aces lists are still top tier. There are also generic and swarm lists doing well but it’s mainly T-95s and Quadjumpers.

I'm sorry?  How many tournaments?  The fate of the meta is utterly hinged to how many we have had? Because if it wasnt done at these events then it can't possibly do well. 

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22 hours ago, Kelvan said:

Late to the party, early to the A-Wing Fan Club. 

Agree to disagree. It's a high class surprise blocker. That's at least the role I prefer on it. Give me back Snap Shot/Juke Awings!

Sad to agree here. I want the utility of A's to be mechanically valuable (surprise blockers), but I miss the double-talent uniqueness more. 

I thought that alone made Rebel A's one of the coolest ships in 1.0. 

They're JUST an A-Wing! How much are ya gonna break the game by giving them multiple talents? (Which aren't even as ridiculous as they were in 1.0).

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I didn't feel like reading the entire thread but I'm hopeful for some good stuff whenever the RZ1 is eventually rereleased. Specifically, I'm hoping for Hera since she's a hot shot A-wing pilot in canon and her current ability would be pretty sick on an A-Wing (granted, she might not have that ability if that happens). I know there are probably some other solid a-wing pilots in canon now and I think they could still pull from legends some to fill out a pack but Hera is the one I know.

It is disappointing that one of the named pilots they brought over got such a change to their ability.

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5 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I'm sorry?  How many tournaments?  The fate of the meta is utterly hinged to how many we have had? Because if it wasnt done at these events then it can't possibly do well. 

People that were there already have carved out a large chunk of the meta in reality. There are always some lists that perform, and we can see what that is right now.

Drea Quadjumper Z95 lists, Imperial aces of all sorts, with and without support, Jonus Bombers, and on other Tournaments where you don’t need Boba Crew (just watched Crossroads livestream), also Boba/Guri or Boba with other support. There are some more variations but that’s where the meta will be for the next months.

Rebels are underrepresented including on the top tables because they are probably the weakest faction right now, even if that’s not the discussion for this thread. But what is really a pity is that what you see from rebels is that they have no variety. Luke, Wedge, Sabine or another filler ship. And for Coruscant also some rebel Z-95 swarms because mantatory Leia.

Don’t get me wrong i am very happy the X-Wing is finally where it should be. But i didn’t see any B-Wings, K-Wings. Very few Y-Wings and ARCs. And most importantly. No A-Wings anywhere. Not even as blockers.

An ace A-Wing would immediately change that. Because it would fit very well with Luke and Wedge points wise, so you could make an all high PS Rebel list if you wished to. (Granted, Coruscant needed a crew slot for Rebels)

Like I said. They dropped the ball on it because they wanted to artificially limit the ship for some weird faction identity blah to which they keep on some ships but not for others. The Y-Wing and ARC both get (the same!) PS5 pilot on ships where nobody needs it, but the ship tailored for high PS does not get one. Makes no sense at all.

To make it clear, i am overall very happy with 2.0. But still really sad that A-Wings don’t cut it, and it needs to be said loudly.

Edited by ForceM

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40 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

I didn't feel like reading the entire thread but I'm hopeful for some good stuff whenever the RZ1 is eventually rereleased. Specifically, I'm hoping for Hera since she's a hot shot A-wing pilot in canon and her current ability would be pretty sick on an A-Wing (granted, she might not have that ability if that happens). I know there are probably some other solid a-wing pilots in canon now and I think they could still pull from legends some to fill out a pack but Hera is the one I know.

It is disappointing that one of the named pilots they brought over got such a change to their ability.

That is actually exactly what i am hoping for. She already has the right Initiative and what would be a totally bonkers Pilot skill for an A-Wing. With that many Blue and a nice selection of Red moves, she would be unblockable and a swiss precision delivery system for Prockets and Bullseye arc abilities.

Plus, she piloted the ship in Canon...

Something more. In the Fly Casual app, they had mods for first edition where you could take her in an A-Wing. Awesome fun i can tell you.

Right now the first functional mod is that they brought back Tycho with his old ability. I tried him and i can tell you at PS5 at 42 points where they put him, with that ability and what talents we have, i find him exactly right. Not too strong or weak. They could have left him in the game like this and nobody would have batted an eye.

Edited by ForceM

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14 minutes ago, ForceM said:

An ace A-Wing would immediately change that. Because it would fit very well with Luke and Wedge points wise, so you could make an all high PS Rebel list if you wished to. (Granted, Coruscant needed a crew slot for Rebels)

How...was there in 1.0 ever a time were an A-wing ace was a high level pick in a big tournament. A worlds runner up made it with a PS1 A-wing.
An ace will give you options. but a straight up 2 attack high PS ace does not make sense in high level play. 

Also lists within waves have changed quite a lot between big tournaments lists. In 1.0 way more high level A-wing lists were at PS1 than any other, although never top tier lists. You can find them on this forum. This may all change in 2.0, but making calls this early....

And just for the record, I played the crap out of Psycho Tycho as ultimate arc dodger and his tail of stress tokens dragging behind him, but he was never competitive. Although... one of my favourite, hopefully he will be in an expansion.

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I get what they were doing with the A-Wing, but I don't exactly like it either. I'm hopeful for what we'll get in the reprint but I am concerned we might not be seeing Tycho making a comeback since there's a lot of nu-canon pilots who have used A-Wings: Hera, Shera Bay and Ahsoka are all possible pilots. Shera would be actually pretty good in an A-Wing, it'd be an interesting way of upping your firepower on the cheap. I'm actually kind of surprised Hera wasn't put into an X-Wing to be honest, but whatever.

Whilst them dropping the second talent slot from the A-Wings was a dissappointing, I do kind of understand that Vectored Thrusters is meant to be pseudo representing PtL and actually having two talent slots could result in something ridiculous and unbalanced... somehow? It's an A-Wing for gods sake.

But that's besides the by. My main problem with A-Wings aside from the lack of high PS ace is the lack of Mod slot. Why in the name of christendom does the most modified fighter in canon, to the point that there are versions of it with bespoke hand crafted wood panelling in the cockpit, not have a mod slot? Why can't I put an extra shield or hull on this? Would Afterburners really be so broken? I have exactly the same problem with the Fang Fighter not having one as well.

 

I also feel that the B-Wing is in a godawful spot as well thanks to it losing the crew slot, and a torp slot, and now it has two cannon slots. Why. Why does it have two cannon slots when none of them are really any good? It currently occupies that position that the E-Wing had with Corran Horn in that they have one good pilot in the form of Keyan Farlander Tem Numb.

 

I really want to see what we get for the reprints because as it stands the A and B wings are wounded animals, one half of a combo that currently does not exist.

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5 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

Ahsoka are all possible pilots

If Ahsoka pops up Rebel side I really hope they give Zuccus and/or the Findsmen back their Force Sensitivity...

Edited by Hiemfire

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1 hour ago, Mward1984 said:

 I'm actually kind of surprised Hera wasn't put into an X-Wing to be honest, but whatever.

she only flew one once in the series, same for the Y-wing. she flew the VCX-100, the attack shuttle, and the A-wing a bunch of times.

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I'm of the opinion that they will be doing the As blister sooner than later and intentionally have reigned it in a bit to take a chance to see it or in the wild and get an idea of where to go with it. Of the ships that could go from zero to broken, the A is a big one. To me it's just like first where the same thing happened and they kept having to tweak it up to make it viable. Caution may be appropriate in the design of a ship that has THE best dial in the game, even if it does only have two attack and a meager Hull/shield setup. I would say the limitation of boost-must-be-last is more than a little annoying though, and it would have been nice to be able to link any action on your bar off of a boost as well. Boost>Target Lock feels like something this ship wants to have the option to do and it's unfortunate that it can't natively. And really there's not much to fix that right now.

It's tricky to get the ships identity as an intercept chassis while the TIE interceptor needs to be distinct itself. Like, you want the A to have the Interceptors ability because man that'd be great right? The Int has the apex ability of what we consider to be required of an arc dodger: Boost or roll directly linked to the other. But A's MUST roll first. And that is a huge handicap for a ship that wants to be a heavy hitting Rebel with only the two primary. It's stuck in this weird role of being a jouster that doesn't have the gun it needs, and being the arc dodger champ when it can't always dodge. I think faction identity won this time. But I'm hopeful that the new pilots they make will bring some great flavor to what is a solid start. Way better than the FirstEd version anyway.

Edited by ForceSensitive
Clarity

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On 10/13/2018 at 8:58 AM, MalusCalibur said:

Maybe I'm being hopelessly optimistic (and that really would be a first), but I think these overreactive posts need to stop. We've barely had 2.0 for five minutes and already I've seen complaints that **** near everything is overpowered or underpowered, clamouring for major buffs or nerfs with barely any supporting evidence, based usually on a handful of anecdotes alone.
It is extremely premature to declare any ship 'DoA' or 'dead for the whole edition', especially given that a)new upgrades that previous ships can use will be coming all the time (look at the Gunner slot for example - currently fairly useless unless you have a turret), b)new pilots for ships will be coming with their individual expansions (so Tycho may well be returning, in the A-Wings' case), and c)points and slots can be adjusted if the need is determined to be great enough, to prevent any ship from being worthless forever once enough significant evidence to support that decision exists.
Until then, can we all stop asking for sweeping changes to ships based solely on limited personal experiences and knee-jerk reactions?

Its a discussion board, which exists for players to share opinions and discuss them.  If players like something or dislike something theyre welcome to talk about it so long as they follow the forum rules.  

seperately, you may be underestimating the number of people who feel let down by FFG in one way or another, because thats what these posts are about.  FFG is speeding up the release schedual on a game that hasnt even finished being converted and has had playtesting issues already. that in combination with the other 2.0 issues can be frustrating. people are gonna be salty if they feel the things they like are being pushed out of the game or ignored

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4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Its a discussion board, which exists for players to share opinions and discuss them.  If players like something or dislike something theyre welcome to talk about it so long as they follow the forum rules.  

seperately, you may be underestimating the number of people who feel let down by FFG in one way or another, because thats what these posts are about.  FFG is speeding up the release schedual on a game that hasnt even finished being converted and has had playtesting issues already. that in combination with the other 2.0 issues can be frustrating. people are gonna be salty if they feel the things they like are being pushed out of the game or ignored

Yeah, you’re absolutely right.

As i said, i am really happy so far with 2.0 and what it brought. I play all factions, so for me there is always a good choice.

But they really put some of the rebel ships in a pretty bad spot and that also needs to be said. The A-Wing to me is the epitomy of what went wrong. Ship identity was really massacred under the banner of faction identity. A faction that just does not need another PS4 Focus giver, but is in dire need of an affordable ace.

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On 10/13/2018 at 12:59 PM, heychadwick said:

A-wings are fantastic flankers.  Get them to a spot on the sides that will give them a good field of vision and if anyone wants to go for them, they put themselves in a bad position to go for you.   Even if you sacrifice an A-wing while the rest of your list kills/cripples the rest of their list, it's worth it.  It's a cheap ship that can usually last pretty well with just a Focus for self-defense (or a good enough dial to get out of the way).  

At the UKTC I ran Wedge, Blount, a Bandit, Outmaneuver Prockets Jake and Intimidation Arvel and played them exactly as you describe here - running the Zs and Wedge in a block and whipping the A-Wings in off the wing, forcing my opponents to commit one way or the other. It was pretty effective against everything except ****ing Boba-Guri. It's a bit headachey because you're out PS-d by almost everyone but because there are blockers and your opponents have to concentrate on one half of your list first it's actually not as bad as you'd think.

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8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Its a discussion board, which exists for players to share opinions and discuss them.  If players like something or dislike something theyre welcome to talk about it so long as they follow the forum rules.  

seperately, you may be underestimating the number of people who feel let down by FFG in one way or another, because thats what these posts are about.  FFG is speeding up the release schedual on a game that hasnt even finished being converted and has had playtesting issues already. that in combination with the other 2.0 issues can be frustrating. people are gonna be salty if they feel the things they like are being pushed out of the game or ignored

Of course. But declaring an entire ship as 'worthless forever' just because it doesn't play the exact same way as before is not a point for discussion as much as it is an overreaction. The new rules have barely been out a month and the overwhelming majority of ships have not been re-released, thus any ship lacking a certain kind of pilot (in this case, a high init 'Ace') is hardly a valid complaint given that we know the individual ship expansions (and whatever the 'no miniature' equivalent is) will contain more pilots.
Calling for a roll back on the A-Wing to give it two Talent slots again based on that and a handful of games is not, in my opinon, a valid argument. I would far rather FFG excercise caution with their new point/slot adjustment capability, and not start throwing around a change as big as a double Talent slot which could, and indeed would, have unforeseen consequences with future Talent cards.
That's not to mention the opposite, yet equally anecdotal, evidence of the A-Wing performing just fine and, to paraphrase a local player, being 'so much fun to fly' - the A-Wing being 'DoA' is far from a universally accepted fact of the game, and certainly nowhere near enough evidence exists to substantiate a change as big as the OP is suggesting.
 

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15 hours ago, ForceM said:

Like I said. They dropped the ball on it because they wanted to artificially limit the ship for some weird faction identity blah to which they keep on some ships but not for others. The Y-Wing and ARC both get (the same!) PS5 pilot on ships where nobody needs it, but the ship tailored for high PS does not get one. Makes no sense at all.

You're reading way too much into this. This probably isn't some forced change for faction identity, or whatever. 

I think most people have forgotten that Jake's actual 1e Pilot Skill was only 7, because he had VI absolutely stapled to him. 

Jake Farrell and Arvel Crynyd are two of the three A-Wing pilots we see on screen in RotJ. FFG quite obviously didn't want to convert the entire 1e pilot roster at this time, just like they haven't with the B-Wing, TIE Interceptor and a number of other small base ships. Arvel and Jake were the obvious choices to bring over for now, and Jake's ability needed tweaking the reflect that the A-Wing has been buffed to included barrel roll as standard and a post action boost built into the ship. The net effect of Jake's ability is effectively the same, only he can also pass a focus token to an ally in addition to his own with the right actions. Another buff. His Initiative value is in line with his actual PS from 1e. 

The A-Wing needs an ace, but Tycho is a problem. For one, he's currently not canon (booo!) and we have several other canon A-Wing pilots. For another, his ability is clearly not in line with the 2e power curve. 

So Tycho was not converted because FFG want more development time to rework his ability and potentially to determine his canon status. 

Alternatively, they want to bring a brand new pilot to the A-Wing and are developing that. Hera and Shara are both pre-exisiting with their own abilities, and would be reasonable choices for the A-Wing. But how well do their abilities map to the A-Wing? Does something about them become broken? 

For example, is Shara's ability actually any better than just taking Concussion Missiles? While the cost of her ability might be worth it on the ARC to get 4 red dice, is it too much to only get 3 red dice? 

Rather than deciding to turn the A-Wing into a dedicated blocker, I think it's far more likely that the A-Wing is simply an incomplete ship until it is re-released, and FFG were not sure what to do for its ace yet. 

14 hours ago, Mward1984 said:

It currently occupies that position that the E-Wing had with Corran Horn in that they have one good pilot in the form of Keyan Farlander Tem Numb.

Yo, I'm happy for Ten and Imma let him finish but Braylen Stramm is the best B-Wing pilot of all second edition

Seriously, Braylen's ability is only good but it's consistent. Ten's can be fantastic but you're absolutely stuck if you don't roll an eye. Braylen's will also work on both attack and defence in a single round, Ten's will only ever work on one of them unless your opponent is able to double stress you. 

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11 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Seriously, Braylen's ability is only good but it's consistent. Ten's can be fantastic but you're absolutely stuck if you don't roll an eye. Braylen's will also work on both attack and defence in a single round, Ten's will only ever work on one of them unless your opponent is able to double stress you.  

I don't give a single **** about it being a free focus, it's about being able to remove stress on a B-Wing with it's absolutely godawful dial with pathetic blue and way too much red that I want. But the fact that you can't spend it even if you don't get a focus result any more which is a big nerf for the Pilot Formerly Known As Keyan. Seriously, if they just made it so I could spend a 1 regenerating charge to remove a stress at the end of my turn with no other ability I would like it better.

Edited by Mward1984

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On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 7:59 AM, heychadwick said:

That's because the A-wing had and still has one of the best dials in the game.  It didn't need improvement!  It still doesn't.  

I don't know why everyone gets so caught up on the Init race.  You don't need a high init to work.  It's just a crutch to correct the mistakes you make when planning.  There should be only a couple Init 6 for each faction and the A-wing shouldn't have anyone there.  Also, you don't need Init 5 to make it work. 

I use a Green Squadron with Clusters as a great flanker and formation disrupter.  I usually give him Daredevil to make him a right pain in the butt.  He can zip up and flank people to get shots they never expected.  The only downside to Daredevil is he can't TL and hard turn.  That's why I like Dutch in the list.  

A-wings are fantastic flankers.  Get them to a spot on the sides that will give them a good field of vision and if anyone wants to go for them, they put themselves in a bad position to go for you.   Even if you sacrifice an A-wing while the rest of your list kills/cripples the rest of their list, it's worth it.  It's a cheap ship that can usually last pretty well with just a Focus for self-defense (or a good enough dial to get out of the way).  

Example:  My opponent likes to fly a list with 3 Z-95's, Gavin Darklighter E-wing, and a HWK.  It's a nasty list that does more than you think it would as all those crits starts to add up.  If he flies a loose formation it can be a bit brutal if he gets you in the crosshairs.  My list of two X-wings, Dutch, and above Green Squadron A-wing would have a hard time if I flew right at him.  I set up so the A-wing was on the flank and the others looked like they would joust.  Instead, the A-wing 5 Straight and Boost for 2 rounds to get on their flank while one X and the Y went up the other flank.  X in the middle slow rolled.  The A-wing with Cluster Missile really disrupted his formation and strategy as he had to send the HWK to deal with it.  It allowed me to blast the Z-95's with the rest of my list and take away the strength of lots of cheap shots getting crits in.  I lost the A-wing due to horrible green dice (out of 6 green dice I only got one evade), but he did his job and broke up the enemy formation.

Yeah I agree with this pretty much.

Don't get me wrong, from the standpoint of the A-wing trying to be like the imperial tie-interceptor it irks me that there is no clear "Ace" in this line of ships, esp with a 5+ int or higher.

 

On the other hand, I think one of the biggest things improved in 2.0 is that INT overall matters, and that PS 5 and 6  actually mean something and are special and now you have to actually make hard choices instead of just slapping VI onto everything.

And if maintaining that special INT 5,6 pilot spot for the BEST PILOTS IN THE GALAXY like Vader, and Wedge means only 4 INT in the A-wing line then I'm TOTALLY okay with it.

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If A-Wings were as good as the contrarians in this thread purport them to be, then they would see them doing so on the table. They are bad and the fact that they have made essentially no showing in any of the competitive events so far supports this. The only place where they are the blocking superstar is in the one match where people tested it before moving on to other, real ships.

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20 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

If A-Wings were as good as the contrarians in this thread purport them to be, then they would see them doing so on the table. They are bad and the fact that they have made essentially no showing in any of the competitive events so far supports this. The only place where they are the blocking superstar is in the one match where people tested it before moving on to other, real ships.

While I despise your tone, having played them they are certainly lacking a certain something. Maybe it really is the dual-EPTs that we got so used to with them. Maybe it's because 2 attack dice frakking sucks eight times out of ten, even still. Or maybe I'm just using them wrong.

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35 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

While I despise your tone, having played them they are certainly lacking a certain something. Maybe it really is the dual-EPTs that we got so used to with them. Maybe it's because 2 attack dice frakking sucks eight times out of ten, even still. Or maybe I'm just using them wrong.

 

We aren't getting dual EPT's back. Whilst you could never really break the game with those in 1.0, in 2.0 they probably don't want to have to worry about combo possibilities of something that can combine Talents.

I feel like you're probably right about the attack dice, and it's particularily bad right now because the 1.0 fix for that: Prockets got nerfed pretty hard with it's bullseye only arc change and points increase, which was required when they simplified it's attack dice mechanics. So right now the A-Wing is like a pre-ATC TIE-Advanced.

Two attack dice ships are either ordinance boats, or cheap sacrifical blocking chaff, and since rebels already have headhunters who are cheaper for that role, there's no place for the A-Wing there.

They need access to a high damage missile that only they can make work or at least some way of upping their firepower that doesn't step on the toes of the Resistance A-Wing, although, to be honest since they're different factions now I feel that should be less of a factor. A range 0-1 missile with 4 attack dice and 2 ammo might do it.

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I agree that A-Wings are missing their classical Ace.  I wouldn't be surprised if Tycho comes back at ps 5 once the A-Wing gets released as an expansion.  Right now they are cheap blockers and thats about it.  
But you can have 5 with PRockets now!

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