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emeraldbeacon

Sense - when to measure?

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I'm wondering at what point I'm allowed/required to measure range, to tell if a ship is an eligible target for Sense... along with the timing on when I spend my force token.  There's lots of interlocking situations...

  1. Do I get to check the range to ships before I select one, or do I have to select a ship first, THEN check the range?
  2. If that ship is more than R1 from me, can I spend a force to still target it, or does Sense "fail" at that point?
  3. When do I have to spend the force token:  before, or after I measure?
  4. What do I do if I sense something, a presence I've not felt since...?

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Reading the card it looks to me like you decide which range bracket you want to choose a ship from, pay the force token if the bracket requires, then measure the range to the desired target ship. If that falls outside the chosen bracket then the action fails and you only have the distance to the target and not what their planned maneuver is. That is useful in and of itself though, and might be part of the reason for the cost of the ability.

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36 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

...If that [ship] falls outside the chosen bracket then the action fails...

Notably, Sense isn't an "action" per game terms, but I get what you're saying.

My question arises, because some similar abilities, like Acquiring a Lock, allow you to measure to all eligible targets, at which point you select one.

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Just now, emeraldbeacon said:

Notably, Sense isn't an "action" per game terms, but I get what you're saying.

My question arises, because some similar abilities, like Acquiring a Lock, allow you to measure to all eligible targets, at which point you select one.

From the way Sense is worded I think you choose the ship and if it isn't in the range bracket you payed for then the attempt fails resulting in the dial not being revealed.

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Ya you choose a ship at 0-1, if you chose to spend a force you chose a ship at 0-3

So you decide if you want to spend a force token or not then you choose a ship in that given range band. 

At least that's my reading of it.

 

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That's rather straightforward @Icelom. The questions brought up in here are more of a sort - if I'm willing to pay the range 3 tax of the card, do I pay in order to measure, or do I measure in order to establish the price? 

As per paying costs (RR.p2) rules, I'd say - if you were trying to use the "extended" Sense but fail to find a single ship in the 0-3 range, the rules would prevent you from paying the cost. 

Here comes the fun part though - the card isn't limited to the enemy ships and there is no game state in which no ship will be found in the 0-3 range... So barely missing on the range would default you to paying a Force Token for... looking at (one of) your own dial(s).

 But that's given under assumption that selecting a ship is part of the effect's resolving. If selecting one is effect's prerequisite, then measuring should be allowed before payment. 

Edit: Yeah, and then there comes that part again - you can ALWAYS default this effect to selecting your own ship equipped with Sense. So while it's still ambiguous to me when exactly do we measure ranges as a part of an effect with a given cost, in the context of Sense it doesn't make us much of a difference. You either stick to range 0-1 for free risking you're going to look up your own dial, or pay to extend the range to 0-3 but still taking on the same risk. 

Edited by ryfterek

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You have to spend the force first, this is an instead that happen before you choose.

Then you choose, and like Lock, you measure to everything and then choose a valid ship. So yes like ryfterek said, you can't fail, because you can at least choose the Sense ship.

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It seems logical to me that you start by choosing the Range band - 0-1, or 0-3 by paying a force - then, once that's established, you measure to all relevant targets and choose one that's eligible.

At least the card says "look at" and not "reveal", because if you had to show your OWN dial to an opponent, that would be pretty unfortunate. :)

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Sense isn't two effects.  There is one effect you can spend a charge to transform into another, more powerful effect.  Since there is only one effect here, it will fall under Once-Per-Opportunity.

You only have one chance at your initiative in the System Phase to use the effect of Sense, and how to use it.  To measure range 0-1, then to to spend a Force for more range, would be attempting to use Sense twice.

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i interpret it like this:

during the systems phase, at your initiative, you announce that you're using the ability.

you measure range (using the range ruler, of course, just like you would for target locks. there is no restriction that you could only measure at range one).

you may then spend a force charge to choose a ship at range 2-3 rather than at range one.

you then either pick a ship or you don't, since the card says "may".

i still think you have to pick a ship to spend the force charge. that doesn't matter though, since you're always at range zero of yourself.

if you sense something, a presence you've not felt, be vigilant and take heed. there is no try, only perfect information. ^_^

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I wouldn't hate a general clarification about abilities like this, but Coordinate, Jam, and Lock in the Rules Reference all start by saying you can measure range to any and all of the things in the class of stuff you'd target, so I expect Sense lets you start by measuring range to any and all ships, before you have to make any decisions at all.

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2 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I wouldn't hate a general clarification about abilities like this, but Coordinate, Jam, and Lock in the Rules Reference all start by saying you can measure range to any and all of the things in the class of stuff you'd target, so I expect Sense lets you start by measuring range to any and all ships, before you have to make any decisions at all.

I partially agree... I think you should get to check all eligible targets, then pick one.  I do, however, think you need to commit to the range band first, before measuring.  Either accept the Range 0-1 slot, or spend the force for Range 0-3... THEN check for all eligible targets (yourself included).

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My interpretation (and, admittedly, I can't find anything to really back this up) is that you measure range on "choose a ship at range ____", since that is the point at which you need to know range. Any earlier than that doesn't make much sense, since it would allow you to "pre-measure" things. But after that would be impossible, since you can't chose a valid ship until you know the range. So it stands to reason that measuring happens as part of "choose".

Working on this assumption, then you'd need to select your range bracket first (and spend the force charge if needed) before measuring. After all, you only get to choose once, since "instead" is a replacement.

That said, I'd be curious to see if anyone can find anything in the rules reference to support or refute that initial assumption.

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22 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

(I just want to say, this is a refreshingly polite discussion in this thread, compared to some of the more contentious disputes on the forums... keep it up, everyone!)

DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO

Edited by nexttwelveexits

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22 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

I wouldn't hate a general clarification about abilities like this, but Coordinate, Jam, and Lock in the Rules Reference all start by saying you can measure range to any and all of the things in the class of stuff you'd target, so I expect Sense lets you start by measuring range to any and all ships, before you have to make any decisions at all.

I see where you're coming from.

From my point of view, the key word is "instead."  To me, this kind of substitution effect is a different kind of choice, and more akin to choosing which action to perform, or which direction of Barrel Roll you'll attempt.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I see where you're coming from.

From my point of view, the key word is "instead."  To me, this kind of substitution effect is a different kind of choice, and more akin to choosing which action to perform, or which direction of Barrel Roll you'll attempt.

Yeah, I guess this is really two questions:

  1. Does the similar structure of Lock, Jam, and Coordinate indicate a general rule that abilities of the form "Choose a [kind of thing] [with range restrictions] and [do something]." allow you to measure to any and all of that kind of thing before you do anything else?
    (I think this is probably a yes.)
  2. Is there something about Sense specifically that requires you to make a decision before you measure anything?
    (I think this is probably a no, but I have less basis for this one.)

 

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