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Koing907

Thane Kyrell, I have never been more tempted to quit X-Wing.

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3 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

And in your opinion the most NPE you’ve ever had playing the game is an X wing that can flip a crit?

Yes sir. To be specific, a Pilot who can look at a ship's damage cards, and pick a crit, by spending one attack dice result that isn't a blank. The X-Wing isn't the issue.

*Edit*

Having thunk about it. I would find a change where Thane has to pick the crit face down randomly, an acceptable balancing change.
I'd be happier if it was also limited to a hit or crit effect, no focus results.
 

Edited by Koing907

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So many people that doesn't understand what NPE (Negative Playing Experience) means. It has NOTHING to do with power level or how difficult it is to beat or play around or anything like that (I do blame the op a bit here for referencing Nym and Miranda). Something can be one of the weakest things in the game and still be NPE. I'll take an example from Hearthstone, early in the game Priest was considered one of the weakest classes and one of the weakest cards Priests had where a spell called Mind Vision (1 mana -  Put a copy of a random card in your opponent's hand into your hand). This is a card that has never been used in any competitive deck but where still considered by many as such a negative playing experience that they would resign on the spot against any Priest playing it.

Is that rational? No. Does spending hours trying to explain why it's not powerful accomplish anything? No because the reason the other guy did not enjoy playing against it has nothing to do with how powerful it is, only what feelings it invokes when playing against it.

I haven't played against Thane so I can't really comment on how I would feel playing against it but reading his ability I can understand why someone would consider playing against it would make for a negative experience.

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I love TIE Interceptors. They’re one of my favorite ships in he game, and have been since day 1. To me the biggest NPE ever was Dengaroo, with 4-lom and Zuckuss crew on Dengar. No matter how well you flew, you’re still eating a 3 or 4 dice shot, where your tokens don’t matter, and your dice have to be rerolled. When you have Soontir and Carnor and see Dengar across from you, and know you have _zero_ chance and likely will be lucky to get shields off on one ship? And if you do get a shot on Dengar the odds are he takes off a ship with his revenge shot are high?

That is a NPE. 

Trajectory Sim Nym with Interceptors is an NPE. But with my double ion TIE/D’s it was fine. So there is some relative space here.

Thane ain’t even in the same ballpark. Because there is a readily available solution, fly better. He may make life miserable for the already hard upon Decimator or Ghost. And, really, that may be true. The answer then needs to be ‘find a way to kill him first’. He’s not invulnerable. He’s not even particularly hard to kill, he’s an X-wing. A good one, potentially, but his ability means nothing if you don’t have damage cards to flip.

So if you are flying something at particular risk, like a ship with no shields or low agility and tons of hull? Do what you must to take care of him before his ability can wreck you. Almost anything has a solution to his ability. So consider that when you make your list. How do you deal with things. How do you deal with barrage bombers, Super Luke, Super Vader, Juke Defenders/ Phantoms, 4-lom, Boba, Palob, Guri, Wedge, Thane, TIE swarms, 3 and 4 X’s, Redline, Sloan’s swarms, Strikers, Scum Falcon, Soontir. All things you are very likely to see at any given time. In fact the odds of facing at least one of these in any matchup is going to be extremely high, on the order of probably 90%. I think one match out of 30+ 2.0 has not had at least one of these. So have a plan, fly what you like but have a plan for any of these things.

Is your advantage numbers? Initiative? Alpha? Arc Dodging? Range control? Action economy? Efficiency? Token denial? Dice mods (including reducing or increasing dice pools)? What is your plan? If you don’t have a plan, don’t have an idea, even one as general as ‘force them through rocks to split fire while flanking and sending X ship as bait’ then don’t complain about an NPE.

Have a plan. If your plan doesn’t work, consider what you could do differently. I can guarantee you there is an answer. Almost any halfway intelligently made list can find a solution for Thane. Thane does not invalidate any ship, pilot, or list the way Dengaroo did. 

Thane is fine. If you see Thane, Wedge, Biggs, and another X, all firing at I5&6 against you? Don’t joust it head on. Find some advantage you can take, and use it.

I tell ya, people forgot how to apply tactics!

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The people at my LGS have pretty much figured out to kill Thane immediately. He dies fast. I might trigger his ability a few times a night if I'm super lucky. 

He's totally beatable, and often pretty underwhelming in a lot of matches. He's not meta warping in the slightest, as any list with decent firepower has a pretty good shot of burning him down in a turn. 

 

Thane is a 6 HP, 2 green dice jouster. I challenge you to find a list that can't burn him down in 1-2 turns. 

 

How you can put this guy on the same tier as freaking mindlinked Asaaj, Genius Nym or a Torpscout is beyond me. 

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18 hours ago, mcgreag said:

So many people that doesn't understand what NPE (Negative Playing Experience) means. It has NOTHING to do with power level or how difficult it is to beat or play around or anything like that (I do blame the op a bit here for referencing Nym and Miranda). Something can be one of the weakest things in the game and still be NPE. I'll take an example from Hearthstone, early in the game Priest was considered one of the weakest classes and one of the weakest cards Priests had where a spell called Mind Vision (1 mana -  Put a copy of a random card in your opponent's hand into your hand). This is a card that has never been used in any competitive deck but where still considered by many as such a negative playing experience that they would resign on the spot against any Priest playing it.

Is that rational? No. Does spending hours trying to explain why it's not powerful accomplish anything? No because the reason the other guy did not enjoy playing against it has nothing to do with how powerful it is, only what feelings it invokes when playing against it.

I haven't played against Thane so I can't really comment on how I would feel playing against it but reading his ability I can understand why someone would consider playing against it would make for a negative experience.

Unfortunately, "how it makes one feel" is far too broad a spectrum to criticize anything by

 

Personally, I hold NPE to a more literal standard ie "a thing that just doesn't let the other player play the dang game". This pretty generally is the most infuriating thing a player can run into in any given game, and I don't see how not letting someone play is good design

One of the best examples is counterspell spam in Magic the gathering, where it literally invalidates anything you do unless you're specifically immune to being countered. 

Anothrr example is mill (deck destruction) in Star Wars Destiny. It spams mitigation so you cant use your dice, and it discards your deck so you can't even play your cards 

In Xwing Miniatures, you'd be looking at things like stress spam or 1st editition ionization. Perhaps the best example, however, would be the 1st Ed turret mechanic that just made your manueverability fairly pointless by almost always allowing your opponent to throw dice at you

 

But Thane? Just because he doesn't have to roll through the green dice of a ship he has to attack (re, have in firing arc)? 

The only NPE there is getting the permanent ion flip crit, and that's a product of (imo) bad design on the damage deck's part FAR moreso than Thane's 

But otherwise? Well, you're still playing the game. He's an arclocked i5, not ps 10 engine nym with night unavoidable genius bombs and TLT

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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5 hours ago, Bonza said:

Thane is a 6 HP, 2 green dice jouster. I challenge you to find a list that can't burn him down in 1-2 turns. 

Challenge accepted.  Of course, it's pretty easy when my red dice average one hit/crit for every five dice rolled.

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21 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Yes sir. To be specific, a Pilot who can look at a ship's damage cards, and pick a crit, by spending one attack dice result that isn't a blank. The X-Wing isn't the issue.

*Edit*

Having thunk about it. I would find a change where Thane has to pick the crit face down randomly, an acceptable balancing change.
I'd be happier if it was also limited to a hit or crit effect, no focus results.
 

So what you want is Thane’s ability to be the exact to Rexler Brath ability, in that regard. While I don’t think it’s necessary I understand but allowing Thane to look at the card makes him unique. Thane is a 2 agility, 6 health ship any focused fire and he melts to most anything.

Edited by Cgriffith
Context

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49 minutes ago, Cgriffith said:

So what you want is Thane’s ability to be the exact to Rexler Brath ability, in that regard. While I don’t think it’s necessary I understand but allowing Thane to look at the card makes him unique. Thane is a 2 agility, 6 health ship any focused fire and he melts to most anything.

Rexler Brath has to hit, and has to be evading to trigger. That's very different from Thane's trigger.

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11 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Rexler Brath has to hit, and has to be evading to trigger. That's very different from Thane's trigger.

Which makes Thane unique, Thane also doesn’t get a focus/evade option with every engagement phase. Thus his lower point cost. Only 2 green dice and 6 HP with any focus fire melts, Thane is now where as difficult an matchup as you are making it. He has great synergy with other T-65 pilots, two of which Luke and Wedge that are much more of a threat than Thane.

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3 hours ago, Koing907 said:

Rexler Brath has to hit, and has to be evading to trigger. That's very different from Thane's trigger.

So... I agree that Thane is annoying. So are other ships, 1e and 2e. If 2e Thane has you ready to quit, you might just need to. I'm not saying you SHOULD quite, but maybe step back and calm down a little? As a player that lives a mostly shield-free lifestyle (punishers and bombers) he's super annoying, but he's defeatable. Thane isn't meta defining, if he was, we'd be seeing him in every rebel list regardless of other content. It's not like he's Lowhricky or Biggs.

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6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Unfortunately, "how it makes one feel" is far too broad a spectrum to criticize anything by

 

Personally, I hold NPE to a more literal standard ie "a thing that just doesn't let the other player play the dang game". This pretty generally is the most infuriating thing a player can run into in any given game, and I don't see how not letting someone play is good design

One of the best examples is counterspell spam in Magic the gathering, where it literally invalidates anything you do unless you're specifically immune to being countered. 

Anothrr example is mill (deck destruction) in Star Wars Destiny. It spams mitigation so you cant use your dice, and it discards your deck so you can't even play your cards 

You can always counterspell the counterspell and mill has weaknesses too like cards you can play from your graveyard or effects that hurt your opponent when forced to discard. Not seeing the problem there as some of you don’t with Thane. ?

Granted Thane is no counter spell but there is counters to anything in games if you look and should there not be one the offending effect should be banned. Also to continue the analogy RDW is one the mightiest archtypes in magic and it is based on kill your opponent first as I have seen several suggest for Thane. Point being you see things as npe that I don’t and vice versa so viva la diversity. 

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you can't counterspell the counterspell if you don't have counterspells, which is basically everyone who isn't blue.

destiny also doesn't have graveyard tech or anything that hurts your opponent when forced to discard.

Meanwhile, Thane can be arc-dodged by anybody. Sure, some ships more easily than others, but his arc is completely standard. Basically, he has nothing in common with the aforementioned card mechanics because you do not have to include specific **** just to counter an NPE strategy.

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

you can't counterspell the counterspell if you don't have counterspells, which is basically everyone who isn't blue.

destiny also doesn't have graveyard tech or anything that hurts your opponent when forced to discard.

Meanwhile, Thane can be arc-dodged by anybody. Sure, some ships more easily than others, but his arc is completely standard. Basically, he has nothing in common with the aforementioned card mechanics because you do not have to include specific **** just to counter an NPE strategy.

Agreed.  The real trouble comes when you have a card or strategy that can only be beaten if you build your list specifically to beat that card or strategy.  I don't think we've seen that yet in 2.0.

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

you can't counterspell the counterspell if you don't have counterspells, which is basically everyone who isn't blue.

?

Just like Thane, you need to play against the possibility.  A blue player who always has 2 ready Islands is tipping you off.  Or, wait for him to tap out of mana, then play your critical spell.

At least with Thane, you know from the beginning. . .

Image result for lethal weapon will somebody shoot this prick

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5 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

you can't counterspell the counterspell if you don't have counterspells, which is basically everyone who isn't blue.

destiny also doesn't have graveyard tech or anything that hurts your opponent when forced to discard.

Meanwhile, Thane can be arc-dodged by anybody. Sure, some ships more easily than others, but his arc is completely standard. Basically, he has nothing in common with the aforementioned card mechanics because you do not have to include specific **** just to counter an NPE strategy.

I did miss the Destiny disclaimer on your mill scenario so apologies on that. I do not nor will I have any interest in Destiny. Do they have cards now that straight mill or is it still dependent on dice rolls?

The counterspell point stands though, many if not all the colors have counters now they are just not usually as powerful or cheap as counterspell, ergo the Ratatouille principle of anyone can do it with varying difficulty is still valid.

@Darth Meanie made a good point too about counters. Part of the strategy in a counter deck is bluffing. Do I have a counter, I left the right mana open. You can bluff plenty in a concealed card game. Thane gives you an option to not really bluff but he does have the ability of control or damage not many ships can do both. He can be extremely flexible and unpredictable in the right hands.

Thane on the table also can do one thing that no other Xwing really can. He can leave his foils closed 100% of the time and remain a threat. If you use him as a straight control piece and have other heavy hitters he can simply run around flipping crits and still be a valuable member of your team.

I just personally don’t like a weighted ability like his. Is it broken? No. Is it stronger than it should be? Possibly. It does depend greatly on your opponents ships. It’s much better against certain things than others.

I do find it interesting that several people have found it difficult to use. It’s a single result shot, at range 3 arc possibilities, obstacles be damned, it just seems more a victim of rebel weakness or low hull meta than all that hard to land. All rebels need is a good damage dealer and anything with 3 hull or more can be at the mercy of dealt cards. 

All this talk has me determined to make a good squad with him now, just wish the rebels weren’t circling the bowl. A good fast bomb layer could be fun with a Thane sniper.

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

 

I do find it interesting that several people have found it difficult to use. It’s a single result shot, at range 3 arc possibilities, obstacles be damned, it just seems more a victim of rebel weakness or low hull meta than all that hard to land. All rebels need is a good damage dealer and anything with 3 hull or more can be at the mercy of dealt cards. 

 

It's hard to use because Thane is so easy to kill. 

Also, it's kind of a 'win more' ability. If you've covered your opponents list in damage cards, chances are you're already ahead or in a good place. 

He's good because he's a relevant late game threat, not because he's an unanswerable force. Don't let him get to late game and you'll be fine. 

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On 10/16/2018 at 2:54 AM, mcgreag said:

So many people that doesn't understand what NPE (Negative Playing Experience) means. It has NOTHING to do with power level or how difficult it is to beat or play around or anything like that (I do blame the op a bit here for referencing Nym and Miranda). Something can be one of the weakest things in the game and still be NPE. I'll take an example from Hearthstone, early in the game Priest was considered one of the weakest classes and one of the weakest cards Priests had where a spell called Mind Vision (1 mana -  Put a copy of a random card in your opponent's hand into your hand). This is a card that has never been used in any competitive deck but where still considered by many as such a negative playing experience that they would resign on the spot against any Priest playing it.

Is that rational? No. Does spending hours trying to explain why it's not powerful accomplish anything? No because the reason the other guy did not enjoy playing against it has nothing to do with how powerful it is, only what feelings it invokes when playing against it.

I think you hit the nail on the head. NPE is about how you opponent experiences the game or ability.

I would add that how a player feels about an experience is facilitated by what the game makes you expect. The reason why Dash, Dengaroo or Nymranda was an NPE in 1.0 was because they "broke the rules" in ways that you weren't made to expect by other game abilities. It's not that there weren't counterplay. Only that it wasn't the game you "signed up for".

I would argue that Thane does not break away from what you should expect in the game. Rexler Brath and Zertik Strom flips crits. Maarek Stele allows you to choose a crit. Gideon Hask and Del Meeko punishes you for having taken damage. Optimized Prototype spends dice results for an offensive effect. Thane's combination might be unique, but not extraordinary.

Of course you are allowed to feel bad about an experiece with Thane, but if you do, I would encurage you to evaluate why that is, because to me it looks like he is well within the "core" ruleset.

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3 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Okay, this has all finally been understood to be a simple case of "fly better, know your opponent's threat."

Back to business. Great job by FFG for designing a fairly priced x-wing pilot that make opponents pay for choosing to go after the wrong one. Case closed.

You must be new to the internet. :D Welcome!

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