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Traj Sim too cheap?

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I guess if your only game plan is to joust something face to face it's a bit game warping.  But otherwise between the shift to system phase for bombing vs activation and the fundamental change to protons no longer going under shields it doesn't make it feel oppressive.  

Yes, seismic is definitely a huge area of control, but you still know that the punisher has to be pointing that direction.  

If Redline were projecting protons during the activation phase like Nym used to be able to...we'd have hard conversations with the developers be screaming our heads off on the internet.

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18 minutes ago, NervousSam said:

As in the 'i dont get to roll defense dice against it' type of damage. You get how big an area seismics hit now right?

the answer is "bigger than every other bomb in the game" for anyone that doesn't wanna play along. 

when you can hit a target with a bomb that is damned near range 3 from where you drop, thats an issue. 

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12 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

The white reload permits them allot more freedom with how they use their bombs. Instead of waiting for near certain hits they can fire them off on strong suspicions of what the opponent is going to do. Allot harder to justify doing so if you only have a couple of charges to work with an cannot replenish them. Bombs also aren't the only muliti-target weapon they can use. Cluster and Concussion missiles are useful against multiple targets.

For some reason, I thought Reload didn't work on devices, but I guess I was wrong.  At the very least, Disarm should last through the System Phase and prevent dropping/launching devices.

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3 hours ago, SOTL said:

But everything is annoying to face.  That's why you put it in your list: to annoy opponents.

Sure, but covering such a big area in auto dmg is pushing it

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I think people are confusing the theoretical max effectiveness of trajectory bombs with their real life effectiveness. No doubt that it is a strong option for the punishers (literally the worst 1.0 ship), but it's not like they lack counter play. The timing change for deploying devices makes them easy to dodge for most small based ships. Not only can you reposition before the bomb explodes, but you'll be able to set all your dials knowing exactly where the bombs can be deployed, barring some Jerjerod shenanigans. 

Lets be real though, the only reason we saw a lot of launched bombs was because Redline was very popular and the upgrades are cheap and effective. The only reason we saw a lot of Redline was because he is the best proton torp carrier in the game, and everyone was running proton torps because they are amazingly powerful. Proton Torps are where you should be expecting a price increase first, as they were everywhere. 

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9 hours ago, intoxicatedALF said:

Can’t speak for punishers a lot, though after flying against redline a bit he feels a little undercosted.

I have nothing wrong with how Trajectory sim is costed in general. On a Scurrg that can’t reload or fire Torps/missile in combination with launched bombs, 3pts feels right. I think Trajectory sim may only feel undercosted when equipped to a punisher speficially. 

Its actually 7pts and a cost of a crew on a scurrg, cause seriously, what astromech is worth it on a scurrg right now? Havoc shoulda been free or maybe 1pt. Trajectory should be 5 or 6pts.

6 hours ago, william1134 said:

I don't enjoy flying against ships with traj simulator.  If I approach from the front ill get a bomb in my face. If I flank and attack from the rear, you get a bomb out the back.. Its not easy and I don't enjoy rolling no dice to defend myself.

You need to work on approach. Come in at 45 degrees, make the ship bank to face its arc toward you and it cant launch bombs at you.

Also realize, punishers and scurrgs and brobots are medium base and can only do a 1 straight or else turn away cuz they will get hit too. This gives you a lot of information. Also, if it appears your ships are going to be flying into a "bomb zone" and they elect not to toss a bomb, this is more good information for you cause they probably coming in hot with their squad. NOT dropping/launching a bomb is a lot of good info to predict enemy ships movements. If they dont drop a bomb and your ship is behind them, wonder why, and look around the table and maybe you will see Soontir or Vader lined up for a 3 or 4 straight flanking you.

Traj sim is a good mechanic that keeps Swarms from running rampant in the game.

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I for one am glad to finally see Punishers get their day in the sun (and I hope it continues in some form as I like them). 

Life conspires to keep me off the table, so I’ve not gotten any TS play in 2.0 yet. Maybe I am just having a grumpy morning, but I am reading some of these posts as: I want to play my game without my opponent’s game making me change up.  

If TS bombs are hurting your list, perhaps they are the rock to your scissors.  For me, the answer is finding some paper for your side (as changes to your list and/or tactics) and not reducing  all the rocks to sand. 

In my estimation, a balanced game is one that ends CLOSE whether I win or loose. If I squash every opponent, either I am playing broken stuff against inferior lists or I am mismatched with the current skill level of those players; the same goes for me if I am taking a beating time again and again. 

If you are lamenting TS ?, how much of your ire comes from getting utterly destroyed compared to not winning as handily as you would like?

 

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When the concept of variable points costs was first introduced, Punishers were the first ship I thought about.  In 1e, they were ridiculously overpriced, because they needed to add a lot of upgrades to do their damage.  But if the Punisher base chassis was cheap enough, it could be flown as an efficiency ship without upgrades.  So there's a bit of a bind.

Enter the concept of Variable Points Costs.  My hope was they'd set the price of a base Punisher without upgrades high enough that it isn't really flown for efficiency, but give the Punisher reduced cost on the ordnance upgrades it needed.  Upgrades clearly don't have the same value on different ships.  This wasn't the direction they went, and I can kinda see why.  Their variable pricing so far has been really straightforward, only keyed into agility or base size.  I get it, that's a fine way to go.  Part of me still wishes there were more variable prices.

And perhaps a ban-list.  No Trick Shot on scum Han Solo would be my first suggestion.  Too many dice for too cheap, but only because of the stack.  Han without Trick Shot and Trick Shot without Han are probably close enough to fairly priced, but the synergy is too strong.  Anyhow, this is off topic for this thread, so moving on...

I'm fascinated by the thought of combining a Nym with Captain Jostero and a bomb-launching IG-88 B (since the squad can't afford a partner robot, B's gunner-type effect with an Ion Cannon seemed like the best to me).  I'm sure a TrajSim IG-88 B is paying a fair price for their launches, perhaps unlike Redline or Deathfire.

So maybe the Punisher needs a cost increase, or maybe on a few pilots.  Maybe TrajSim needs to be variable in its pricing.  Double-cost on a ship with reload, for example.  That'd future proof a few things, like if there's ever some kind of upgrade to gain reload on a launch-capable ship.

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The issue (in my opinion) is that there is no opportunity cost or trade-off for taking trajectory simulator.  Unlike on the Scurgg, where you have to pay for a title and sacrifice the crew slot, most ships do not need to give anything up to take a cheap trajectory simulator.  In my opinion, the trajectory simulator card should remove/replace a torpedo slot, or remove the modification slot (taking away ablative plating or shield/hull upgrades).

If trajectory simulator is going to impose hard choices on the opponent, then the decision to include it in a list should put a hard decision on the player using it.

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7 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:

The issue (in my opinion) is that there is no opportunity cost or trade-off for taking trajectory simulator.  Unlike on the Scurgg, where you have to pay for a title and sacrifice the crew slot, most ships do not need to give anything up to take a cheap trajectory simulator.  In my opinion, the trajectory simulator card should remove/replace a torpedo slot, or remove the modification slot (taking away ablative plating or shield/hull upgrades).

If trajectory simulator is going to impose hard choices on the opponent, then the decision to include it in a list should put a hard decision on the player using it.

What ships all can take it and use it though? Punishers are the obvious ones, Scurgg with title, the IGs can, and probably something something rebel.

The only "problem ship" is Redline, but we have a single meme tournament where Boba wasn't there that seemed to highlight that issue.

This is probably a good discussion to have started, but we won't really know for a couple months how things will shake out. Redline definitely seems really good, but I think that is more on the back of I5 plus full mods on a torpedo than it is trajectory sim + bombs.

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Punishers are a little undercosted compared to their equivalents in other factions, especially Redline. But they aren't crazy broken, TS should be 6-7 and even then it's still an amazing control piece even without dealing damage.

 

The designers have honestly done a pretty good balancing job and the great thing about 2.0 is the ability to change point values, every ship has a sweet spot no matter how good/bad they might seem to be. The first point evaluation in January was always bound to have the most changes with so much just being released, after that I expect it to just be a few key pilots/upgrades here and there to stop crazy cheap cards dominating. TS is one of those cards some players hate, I actually really like using it and have had a blast flying with and against the likes of Deathrain, but the Punishers and TS need to go up to bring other things in as viable options a little more. The Lok Revenant at 8 points more than the generic Punisher seems poor value for sure.

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Of course this conversation is had only when Punishers are the most viable bomber, lol. But seriously, the systems phase is glorious. No longer do you resign yourself to the fate of perfect info PS10 bombing, but even the lowliest Alpha Squadron can provide counterplay! Furthermore, the proton nerf to 1 crit instead of 1 faceup is amazing. For the 8 pt invested in shooting that upfield, you take only 1 shield away. For comparison, Crackshot is only 1 pt, Juke is 4pt, and Outmaneuver is 6 pt: all but the first are reusable, but the subsequent proton bombs are easily counterplayed. Sure, it scares shieldless aces and stealth device carriers away or to flank, but a punisher is not going to terrify a good player with even 1 shield. If focus-fired, they vaporise. Heck, look at Coruscant gameplay with Redline: the world's top players know that Redline is amazing, but is all the same mortal. Thus, when needed, they were rather cagey with him.

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Yes, punishers can perform a reload action to regain a bomb charge, but that leaves them unable to shoot (as with all reloads), and if your target for the reload action is redline's bombs, not his proton torps or prockets, then I'd humbly suggest you might be using redline wrong.

And as said above, an over-committed redline is a dead redline. TS is great, but when you use it, it does a pretty good job of indicating where you aren't going to be. Honestly, I prefer my Redline w/ double ordnance and FCS. Hop in for an attack run, leave a bomb on the way out while reloading and setting up for the next pass.

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1 hour ago, wurms said:

Also realize, punishers and scurrgs and brobots are medium base and can only do a 1 straight or else turn away cuz they will get hit too. This gives you a lot of information.

@wurms Actually, the new medium base means that the Punisher cannot even do a 1 forward without taken the lunched bomb to the face.  So, when using Traj Sim, the Medium base ship has to either turn away (as mentioned) taking it out of the current round's fight (unless really lucky positioning happens) or a Full Stop which would then deny him any actions and leave him open at Range 3.

Of course, throw some Ablative Plating on there and you are good to go.  I feel the Punisher gets rightly costed with the Ablative Plating being almost necessary to properly use Traj Sim.

Maybe I am just Punisher biased, but I am just so happy I get to fly my favorite ship finally... and three of them at that.  (Redline + 2 Cutlass)

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I use punishers a lot - tragedy simulator shouldn’t be in the game - it’s too good - tie fighters can not face it. I dropped a ghost in one turn - three proton bombs followed by 2 fully modded proton torpedoes and one single modded - 14- 15 damage 

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18 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:

I use punishers a lot - tragedy simulator shouldn’t be in the game - it’s too good - tie fighters can not face it. I dropped a ghost in one turn - three proton bombs followed by 2 fully modded proton torpedoes and one single modded - 14- 15 damage 

They could make it unique like bomblet was in 1.0?

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21 hours ago, freakyg3 said:

I use punishers a lot - tragedy simulator shouldn’t be in the game - it’s too good - tie fighters can not face it. I dropped a ghost in one turn - three proton bombs followed by 2 fully modded proton torpedoes and one single modded - 14- 15 damage 

That's the fault of the VCX player for putting themselves in a position where they can get shot by 3 proton torpedoes. 3 damage from the bombs vs 12 damage from the torpedoes can't really be blamed on the launched  mines  bombs.

Edited by JasonCole
WORDS MATTER

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2 minutes ago, JasonCole said:

That's the fault of the VCX player for putting themselves in a position where they can get shot by 3 proton torpedoes. 3 damage from the bombs vs 12 damage from the torpedoes can't really be blamed on the launched mines.

 

True - they tried to joust me but I think it might still be a little too strong with too many upgrades

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v5!s!191:114,136,-1,-1,-1,69,71,103:;192:114,136,-1,-1,-1,69,71,103:;193:114,136,97,-1,-1,69,71,103:&sn=Punisher&obs=yt2400debris0,yt2400debris1,yt2400debris2

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1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

What ships all can take it and use it though? Punishers are the obvious ones, Scurgg with title, the IGs can, and probably something something rebel.

The only "problem ship" is Redline, but we have a single meme tournament where Boba wasn't there that seemed to highlight that issue.

This is probably a good discussion to have started, but we won't really know for a couple months how things will shake out. Redline definitely seems really good, but I think that is more on the back of I5 plus full mods on a torpedo than it is trajectory sim + bombs.

I think if Boba had been present, he would have done some work on the Redline squads.

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