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Children of the Empire Spoilers

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Just now, Schmoozies said:
 

Its a solid eject button, Courtier trait is handy.  I would like it better if it bowed the opposing character but you can't have everything

Also, good to see the scholar trait being expanded. 

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41 minutes ago, ElSuave said:

pIWBjTS.png

 

Probably a dumb question, but since him moving home is after the dash, and a board state change can be accomplished after an opponents character moves home, and it doesn't say "while this character is participating in a conflict" before the dash; does he need to be at the conflict?

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Yes, the “then” word makes that if the “move this character home” condition is not satisfied, the rest of the ability can’t be resolved. 

Edit: clarified in the AMA by Brad Andres  

<@!368645682900500482> You cannot fulfill the "post-Then" effect if Sage is not in the conflict. When the game attempts to check whether the ability can be triggered, it only sees: "move this character home," and if you cannot move it home, then the effect will not change the game state, and the ability cannot be initiated.

Edited by Tabris2k

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On 10/23/2018 at 10:12 PM, sndwurks said:

That's not to say that the whole melty-face ninja, insane undead and oni summoning blood sorcerers, half-inhuman monsters crawling out of **** had its place in the Spider Clan which worked. They didn't, and any Spider Clan player from that era will tell you that. Publicly, we knew that the Clan had some serious monsters in its ranks, and the public face had to basically find a way to deal with that. Our solution was to use them as basically weapons against the enemies of the Empire. We offered to hunt down the Dark Oracle of Fire. We offered to make war against the Gaijin. These were like the old Shadow-corrupted shinobi, the Damned, and the other historic forces of corrupted samurai. We just had more of them, because of where we had come from.

Ultimately, however, it was never meant to work. So now, you have players who still wring their hands and decry the Spider Clan as the worst thing to ever happen to the game under AEG, while you have others who, like me, found the Spider Clan players to be welcoming and kind and found the challenge of playing the Demon In Service To Heaven an engaging, mature challenge.

 

And this is where you entirely lose the script.

You want a Shadowlands faction that is specifically not evil, thus destroying what it even means to be corrupted and tainted and marks every previous character who did go crazy or was destroyed or chose death rather than becoming an abomination out to be a "weak idiot" who is lesser than even the most basic and mundane member of the faction.

Moreover, this Shadowlands faction that still worships Jigoku, you know-- the place defined by being the source and destination of all evil, but is somehow "not evil" just ends up creating the need for there to be an entirely separate Shadowlands faction so that the actual evil demon things can well... still be a thing!

And, really, once you decide to purge all the Shadowlands things from the Shadowlands faction, all you are left with is well... basically just the Crab Clan.

If it cannot be done without suddenly dismissing that the taint was ever a curse or a threat or a problem, it cannot be done without effectively becoming a tumor on the setting and effectively necessitating a second Shadowlands faction being introduced simply so there can still be a Shadowlands, and it cannot be done without rendering other clans useless and meaningless-- then it shouldn't be part of the setting.

Regardless if the people obsessed with playing Spider Clan had out-of-character buddies playing other clans in Winter Court and were willing to completely unreasonably roll-over for their friends. A bunch of people acting massively out-of-character to favor what was obviously the current writers pet faction and the one that was the constant center of all the stories... well, it just doesn't impress me much and it shouldn't anyone else.

I get it-- you want to be the "bad guy" but not really the bad guy and you breaking all the rules and violating all the laws is all totally okay, those all are things that apply to everyone else-- not you. You are special.

Well, we already have the Scorpion Clan to be those jerks. There is no need for a second arachnid clan to be doing the same thing. Especially when the sole reason for the Scorpion remotely being able to justify being the absolute worst is that they are trying to protect everyone from the very things that would make up a Spider Clan because those things that make up a Spider Clan are the true threat to the empire.

And having seen a timeline where they were allowed to run rampant despite clearly being against everyone else's best interests and no one raising a finger to stop them-- well, we saw what happened. They destroyed the empire. As it was always clear they were inevitably going to do. So now we have a new timeline and there is no need to rush this one to the same dark, bitter end and blow up this Rokugan 4 generations earlier than the original.

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For the record, @TheHobgoblyn, I have always preferred the elements of the Spider Clan which were evil but not Tainted. The Spider Clan monks working to educate and protect the lowliest members of society because doing so proved the dogma of Bushido to be a hollow lie. The members of the Susumu family who served Tengoku faithfully while simultaneously serving Jigoku faithfully, inspired by the example of the one who did so successfully, even at the cost of his own life. The best part of Daigotsu's story is when he returned from death and was unable to become Tainted because Emma-O held onto that section of his soul, and yet still he served as the leader of the Lost and the high priest of Fu Leng.

The Scorpion Clan are very rarely "evil". Their whole philosophy is centered around the concept of being willing to sacrifice everything in the name of loyalty to your lord. This is not "evil", though many of its actions certainly are. This is performing evil in the name of a "good" ideal. The Scorpion Clan are the Vampire: the Masquerade analogue to the Crab Clan's Werewolf: the Apocalypse version of 1990's Anti-Heroes. They are good guys, doing bad things for the greater good.

The Spider Clan were, at their most playable in the RPG, bad guys in the service to the Empire, who held no illusion to any concept of "the greater good". Their morality code was different than the standard society, and modeled after an honestly demonic code of conduct concerning itself with victory at all costs. The Empire proved to be stronger than Jigoku on multiple occasions, after all, so if you moral code is all about joining the winning team, why would you not join the Empire? In many ways, the Spider Clan functioned best as the Evil Dragon Clan, not the "tainted Crab / Scorpion Clan", questioning and challenging the Empire's traditions while fostering individuals of excellence.

The problem came down, repeatedly, to the fact that during the AEG tenure of this game, most players did not want a nuanced evil faction in service to the Empire (and not a "greater good"). They wanted their anti-social scary monsters looking to burn the world down, and AEG favored that majority. As I have said time and time and time again...

The Rokugan you describe, and the Rokugan that is frequently asked for, is "Lord of the Rings / Game of Thrones with Katana". And the Spider Clan does not work in that Rokugan, because that Rokugan has a VERY dichotomous good vs evil world.

The Rokugan that a functioning Spider Clan belongs in is "Romance of the Nine East Asian Kingdoms (who are color-coordinated for your convenience)", where Jigoku is as much a necessary part of the cosmos as Tengoku, and those who serve Jigoku knowingly are simply the different side of the coin than those who serve Tengoku, and having both take the knee before the Daughter of Heaven (and thus the Champion of Ningen-Do, the realm of mortals) proved that Rokugan was greater than both Jigoku and Tengoku, because Jigoku would never kneel to Tengoku... but it did kneel to the Empress.

And funny. You say that everyone just rolled over in Winter Court IV to make room, playing themselves entirely out of character... but there was an Imperial Heir who was fostered into the Spider Clan. There was an entire generation of Samurai who grew up and came of age in a world where the Spider Clan existed, where a major reason why the Empire was able to rebuild after the Destroyer War was the wealth of natural resources taken from the Colonies (source: Chosen of the Emperor by Shawn Carman) thanks to the Spider Clan's Conquerors forging the path through the jungles and ruins, where the Spider Clan had stood shoulder to shoulder with the samurai of the other Great Clans against the threat of the Fallen and the threat of the Dark Naga. It made sense for the Crab Clan and the Scorpion Clan to hate the Spider Clan unreasonably, and for the Lion Clan and Phoenix Clan to do their best to ignore their existence. But the Unicorn Clan, who were their allies even before they became a Great Clan? The Mantis Clan, who had previously extorted Great Clan status from the Empire by making a similar threat as Daigotsu's on the Second Day of Thunder and whom had leadership (Yoritomo Aranai) who was a member of both Clans? The Dragon Clan, who had been given the task of teaching this new Great Clan how to live, grow, and learn? While I admit that the Crane Clan siding with us was unexpected, as was the Imperial Families siding against us, I will amount those to the actions of certain players. 

The Spider Clan represented a fundamental change in the setting of L5R, because once you defeat the Shadowlands at the Second Day of Thunder... what is the point of even having them in the game?

Also, as a note, Jigoku is not the source of evil. It is the source of chaos. The first evil was the Lying Darkness, and technically, Jigoku was originally just the realm of chaos until it was itself changed by the Lying Darkness and Fu Leng. See: the history of the Rakshasa, the Time of the Five Races, the creation of the universe, the creation of the First Oni, and the like. All of which were written AFTER the Second Day of Thunder, and thus could be considered retcons of the original Shadowlands concept as presented in 1st Edition L5R.

Though seriously, if we are going to keep arguing this, we really should move to a different thread so people can look at their spoilers in peace.

Edited by sndwurks

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I can't speak for anyone else, but, everyone knows that I'm a Shadowlands fanboi and I enjoyed what I felt the Spider Clan represented, even though it was executed poorly.  After trying to take the empire by force, for centuries, Fu Leng took a different approach to finally claim victory.  It's entirely plausible, just not well done. 

The shell of this story is not a bad one, but, it's in the past so lets see what happens in the new lore.  I do suspect there will be some similarities because ultimately I feel it's necessary for Fu Leng to become a part of Rokugan, besides just the big bad, in order for Rogukan to survive against the outside world. 

By rejecting Fu Leng and pitting him as the constant enemy of Rokugan, it ultimately weakens the empire, long term.  Since Rokugan is not progressing, they become vulnerable to the outside world. The Unicorn have been back for 200 years.  If nobody is willing to embrace, or at least explore, the new wonders the Unicorn came back with 200 years ago, they are essentially sticking their heads in the sand and simply trying to maintain the status quo, when it's clear that is no longer a tenable situation.  If Fu Leng rises and it takes the combined might of the remaining clans to defeat him, would it not be better to strike a bargain with him to ensure that whatever comes to Rokugan in the future has to deal with Fu Leng as part of the combined might of Rogukan?

Fu Leng  and the Spider Clan are the redemption story nobody wants to admit they want, because it means they have to come to grips with what a crappy place Rokugan actually is.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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4 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but, everyone knows that I'm a Shadowlands fanboi and I enjoyed what I felt the Spider Clan represented, even though it was executed poorly.  After trying to take the empire by force, for centuries, Fu Leng took a different approach to finally claim victory.  It's entirely plausible, just not well done. 

The shell of this story is not a bad one, but, it's in the past so lets see what happens in the new lore.  I do suspect there will be some similarities because ultimately I feel it's necessary for Fu Leng to become a part of Rokugan, besides just the big bad, in order for Rogukan to survive against the outside world. 

By rejecting Fu Leng and pitting him as the constant enemy of Rokugan, it ultimately weakens the empire, long term.  Since Rokugan is not progressing, they become vulnerable to the outside world. The Unicorn have been back for 200 years.  If nobody is willing to embrace, or at least explore, the new wonders the Unicorn came back with 200 years ago, they are essentially sticking their heads in the sand and simply trying to maintain the status quo, when it's clear that is no longer a tenable situation.  If Fu Leng rises and it takes the combined might of the remaining clans to defeat him, would it not be better to strike a bargain with him to ensure that whatever comes to Rokugan in the future has to deal with Fu Leng as part of the combined might of Rogukan?

Fu Leng  and the Spider Clan are the redemption story nobody wants to admit they want, because it means they have to come to grips with what a crappy place Rokugan actually is.

 

so glad you are a fan but please put this on another topic listing. thanks! 

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7 hours ago, Uramov said:

 

Probably a dumb question, but since him moving home is after the dash, and a board state change can be accomplished after an opponents character moves home, and it doesn't say "while this character is participating in a conflict" before the dash; does he need to be at the conflict?

It is implied by the dash that you need to have this character in the conflict but I agree that reminder text would be helpful to new players.

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3 hours ago, BayushiFugu said:

It is implied by the dash that you need to have this character in the conflict but I agree that reminder text would be helpful to new players.

 Except it doesn't because we have a bunch of characters that use the same template and don't need to be in the conflict. Granted they're generally shugenja, but that doesn't mean they don't have the same templating. I'm happy with the explanation that the "Then" qualifier is needed to resolve the rest of the effect, and glad that I have a handy reminder to look for it in the future by being wrong in this instance.

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6 hours ago, BayushiFugu said:

It is implied by the dash that you need to have this character in the conflict but I agree that reminder text would be helpful to new players.

The dash actually has nothing to do with the participation, as previously mentioned its the fact that you must first move him home THEN move the other character home that makes his participation mandatory.

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On 10/24/2018 at 2:46 PM, sndwurks said:

The Rokugan you describe, and the Rokugan that is frequently asked for, is "Lord of the Rings / Game of Thrones with Katana". And the Spider Clan does not work in that Rokugan, because that Rokugan has a VERY dichotomous good vs evil world.

I OBJECT! Game of Thrones has an intensely complex morality! Anyone who's read Martin's other works like say...

In the House of the Worm, Bitterblooms, And Seven Times Never Kill Man, The Way of Cross and Dragon, Tuff Voyaging, This Tower of Ashes, Sandkings, Nighflyers [also the red comet is a volkron] Dying of the Light, and Men of Greywater Station.

Look... all I'm saying is that Martin is a communist hippy. All of his books, including AGoT are basically "war sucks and everyone is going to keep dying and keep killing each other until they realize that war sucks"

BTW.. I completely 210% agree with your rant. Spider needs to be that nuanced evil! Someone wicked, almost heartless in action but someone you almost agree with... like say... The Meatbringer from In the House of the Worm, or Arkin Rorque from Dying of the Light, Tully Moon who arguably is the hero of the story, imho; from Manna from Heaven

Seriously... the audiobook is on YouTube it's only 2 hrs

Edited by Foxtrot Four

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Dang, that's some serious fate pressure. Too bad it's military only, so they can attempt to break it on a political swing. Still, if you can hold it off, I'd happily toss a card to remove a fate. This is a great one to trigger twice with that Crab Engineer, too.

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There's probably a million reasons why the game would break from such a bizarre mechanic... but can you imagine the insanity that would unfold if Crab ever got a card/ability where they can make themselves considered defending/ the defender during a conflict they've declared as the attacker?

Something thematic for the whole "a strong offense is the best defense" concept. 

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4 hours ago, AradonTemplar said:

Dang, that's some serious fate pressure. Too bad it's military only, so they can attempt to break it on a political swing. Still, if you can hold it off, I'd happily toss a card to remove a fate. This is a great one to trigger twice with that Crab Engineer, too.

Just another reason to splash unicorn  and play the card that switch the conflict type (I've forgotten the name). 

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1 minute ago, Jamadman said:

Just another reason to splash unicorn  and play the card that switch the conflict type (I've forgotten the name). 

Captive Audience. It feels a little unfair to hold political delegates captive, and then threaten them with ballista. But not entirely out of line for the Crab!

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5 hours ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

There's probably a million reasons why the game would break from such a bizarre mechanic... but can you imagine the insanity that would unfold if Crab ever got a card/ability where they can make themselves considered defending/ the defender during a conflict they've declared as the attacker?

Something thematic for the whole "a strong offense is the best defense" concept. 

Finally a good use for Kaiu Inventor ^^

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The issue with Heavy Ballista is that how can it even fire from one province to the next? It should have been Magical Nuke Ballista if it was meant to fire a target anywhere in the Rokugan world. -_-'

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