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Children of the Empire Spoilers + Unicorns

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8 minutes ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

Come again? 

Emphasis mine. I don't see any demanding here. In fact, I think I've seen more ranting from you against any minor clan inclusion in the game than I've seen from the combined minor clans supporters actually demanding anything. 

We get it. You don't like minor clans. No sense in continuing to go to such lengthy monologues in beating the dead Horse Clan. 

Okay, let me explain this to you in other terms.

Let's say you are on a train. And the train is very clearly heading to the north.

And you already heard on the radio that the bridge to the north has fallen down and that if it goes in that direction and does not divert, it will derail and go over the cliff into the ocean.

And you try to explain "The bridge is gone, you are driving over a cliff-- you should divert the train now!!"

But, the conductor ignores it and passes up the chance to divert the train, clearly indicates they are just going to keep heading directly for where that bridge used to be.

So you get the attention of the people on the train. You take out your phone and bring up the reports and warn all the passengers that the bridge is out, that if the train keeps heading in that direction it will fall into the ocean and be destroyed.

And what do you hear?

A passenger saying "So, we are going to keep heading north, right?"

And the conductor says "Well, I can't confirm that for sure, but we sure aren't taking any detours and I like whats on the other side of that bridge."

So you try to explain one last time in exhaustive detail that IF the train keeps heading north, the train WILL be destroyed-- no "ifs", no "ands", no "buts"-- the train cannot fly and with that bridge gone, it will fall down and be destroyed.

And then someone says, "Stop ranting and raving!! Just because you don't like the shops on the northern end of the bridge, doesn't mean we shouldn't just keep heading there. I don't see anyone demanding as loudly as you that the train keep heading north."

It is a matter that the train cannot fly and is not going to get over that non-existent bridge and yet is very clearly and obviously heading in that direction whether there is "loud demand" for it or not. Clearly the conductor is bowing to those demands, regardless of whether you personally consider them "loud". And so long as the conductor is trying to crash and destroy the train, it is worth trying to alert people that their action is going to destroy the train.

 

There was a time I actually liked minor clans, if it felt like there was any room for them I wouldn't be opposed. But a year in any the game feels thread bare regardless of which clan you are making a deck for. Because holdings in the old sense of gold/honor economy have been removed from the game, character cards take on a much greater role. And one has to use between a third to nearly half of the currently existing faction if they are going to make a deck. There really isn't a whole lot of choice. And things are even worse when it comes to attachments and events because they are now mostly exclusive to a clan. And you have to use more than half of those in existence if you are making a pure clan deck. And one can, or rather must, do splash, but that generally means running only 3 copies of a conflict card from another faction. There are only a handful of neutral ones, and of those a couple of the few neutral events there are have already been declared so overpowered that they have been restricted.

 

A year into the game, 2 entire expansion cycles finished and yet the game feels so very constricted when one is building a deck. Far more so than it ever did in the CCG era because of all the extra restrictions placed on deck building. Interjecting into this a bunch of useless character cards that won't really be usable and have to be printed in a set of however many minor clans would be utterly disastrous. Even in the CCG era when many more cards were being printed, any given minor clan was rarely ever represented by more than a single card and were only printed once so many cards for the factions were printed that they just need common slot junk that wouldn't affect the game much to fill their card packs with.

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@TheHobgoblynSo far, the only example of minor clan cards in the LCG are the handful of Mantis cards we have.  How does anything you've seen in that small sample of cards lead you to the conclusion that adding more minor clan cards into the game would be a catastrophic design choice?

Also, it appears you are a supporter of Imperial cards and want more of them added to the game.  How is that any different than someone wanting more minor clan cards?

Not being snarky here.  I'm genuinely curious as to why one seems ok to you and the other doesn't.  

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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5 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Okay, let me explain this to you in other terms.

Let's say you are on a train. And the train is very clearly heading to the north.

And you already heard on the radio that the bridge to the north has fallen down and that if it goes in that direction and does not divert, it will derail and go over the cliff into the ocean.

And you try to explain "The bridge is gone, you are driving over a cliff-- you should divert the train now!!"

But, the conductor ignores it and passes up the chance to divert the train, clearly indicates they are just going to keep heading directly for where that bridge used to be.

So you get the attention of the people on the train. You take out your phone and bring up the reports and warn all the passengers that the bridge is out, that if the train keeps heading in that direction it will fall into the ocean and be destroyed.

And what do you hear?

A passenger saying "So, we are going to keep heading north, right?"

And the conductor says "Well, I can't confirm that for sure, but we sure aren't taking any detours and I like whats on the other side of that bridge."

So you try to explain one last time in exhaustive detail that IF the train keeps heading north, the train WILL be destroyed-- no "ifs", no "ands", no "buts"-- the train cannot fly and with that bridge gone, it will fall down and be destroyed.

And then someone says, "Stop ranting and raving!! Just because you don't like the shops on the northern end of the bridge, doesn't mean we shouldn't just keep heading there. I don't see anyone demanding as loudly as you that the train keep heading north."

It is a matter that the train cannot fly and is not going to get over that non-existent bridge and yet is very clearly and obviously heading in that direction whether there is "loud demand" for it or not. Clearly the conductor is bowing to those demands, regardless of whether you personally consider them "loud". And so long as the conductor is trying to crash and destroy the train, it is worth trying to alert people that their action is going to destroy the train.

much to fill their card packs with.

And just to finish this analogy when you get to the sight of your suspected disaster you discover that your massive bridge outage that you have been ranting and raving about has been either repaired or never happened because the conductor who has the knowledge of the full course that the train is following and has been in communication with the local support network at the bridge and beyond was able to confirm that everything was okay and that there was no need to divert, and that if the repairs had not been completed before they got to the point of no return (which is still a fairs ways down the line) he still had plenty of places that they could stop or divert so there is no reason to start spreading a panic before they get to that point.  Moral of the story don't give into loudest voice in the room that claims they have all the answers based on their limited view of the situations,  but let the experts that have the full scope of the background details do their job.

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That's one of the worst uses of analogy to represent a case I've ever seen. Just to remind everyone, analogy is often considered the weakest form of argument, primarily because it is only as strong as the compared elements' equivalency.

In this case, you're stating that the bridge 'definitely is out,' but it's really a lot closer to, "You've read, or decided through your own experience, that the type of bridge construction used is insufficient to support the weight of your current train," by which I mean, there's not definitively a problem, it's just your opinion. In light of that one simple change, the rest of the people taking you less seriously makes a lot more sense.

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I don’t really have a horse in this race ..... 

but if they release a load of minor clan characters, then I’d like it if they were all clan aligned. Ie Fox character(s) were released, but it(they)  are crane clan characters, with fox clan as a trait. 

 

Eventually there could be a yoritomos alliance(not mantis) stronghold that would let you use all minor clan characters.  

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3 hours ago, JolOfNar said:

I don’t really have a horse in this race ..... 

but if they release a load of minor clan characters, then I’d like it if they were all clan aligned. Ie Fox character(s) were released, but it(they)  are crane clan characters, with fox clan as a trait. 

Actually, I was thinking this exact same thing. Let’s suppose Hotaru’s husband appears as card. It will be a Crane card, but will have “Fox Clan” as a trait. 

It also would be cool if some of the Mantis cards would be Crab clan aligned, to simbolize their actual alliance. 

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26 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Actually, I was thinking this exact same thing. Let’s suppose Hotaru’s husband appears as card. It will be a Crane card, but will have “Fox Clan” as a trait. 

It also would be cool if some of the Mantis cards would be Crab clan aligned, to simbolize their actual alliance. 

That would be sweet. It would add flavour to the minor clans through their alliances. Adds a new dimension of prizes for storyline prizes, could get allying characters from minor clans to join you. 

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21 hours ago, JolOfNar said:

I don’t really have a horse in this race ..... 

but if they release a load of minor clan characters, then I’d like it if they were all clan aligned. Ie Fox character(s) were released, but it(they)  are crane clan characters, with fox clan as a trait. 

 

Eventually there could be a yoritomos alliance(not mantis) stronghold that would let you use all minor clan characters.  

I expect that if anything, THIS is how we are going to see Minor Clans, probably as part of a Dynasty Cycle. Similar to how the Elemental Cycle gave all the Great Clans some Shugenja, I expect to see a cycle give them all Courtiers, then all Bushi, THEN we will get a cycle which will include a bunch of Minor Clan Characters with a sub-theme attached to them which plays well with their parent faction, but is its own unique thing.

A Fox Clan sub-theme for the Crane Clan which focuses on using Holdings and Shugenja to gain Honor.

A Falcon Clan sub-theme for the Crab Clan which focuses on repeatable debuffs for your opponent using Events.

A Centipede Clan sub-theme for the Phoenix Clan which uses Glory-related spells.

A Badger Clan sub-theme for the Unicorn Clan which mills cards off your Dynasty deck for combat advantage.

A Dragonfly Clan sub-theme for the Dragon Clan which pays Fate to rings to "tell the future", i.e. prevent cards from being played in Conflicts.

It will be a rough fit for the Lion and the Scorpion, honestly, due to both those Clans having such an antagonistic history with Minor Clans (see: The Three Man Alliance, history of Tonbo family and Tsuruchi, etc), but I am sure they can do something appropriate for the storyline and game.

For the time being, however, I am eagerly awaiting the new Imperial cards so I can finally make my Imperial deck.

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3 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I expect that if anything, THIS is how we are going to see Minor Clans, probably as part of a Dynasty Cycle. Similar to how the Elemental Cycle gave all the Great Clans some Shugenja, I expect to see a cycle give them all Courtiers, then all Bushi, THEN we will get a cycle which will include a bunch of Minor Clan Characters with a sub-theme attached to them which plays well with their parent faction, but is its own unique thing.

A Fox Clan sub-theme for the Crane Clan which focuses on using Holdings and Shugenja to gain Honor.

A Falcon Clan sub-theme for the Crab Clan which focuses on repeatable debuffs for your opponent using Events.

A Centipede Clan sub-theme for the Phoenix Clan which uses Glory-related spells.

A Badger Clan sub-theme for the Unicorn Clan which mills cards off your Dynasty deck for combat advantage.

A Dragonfly Clan sub-theme for the Dragon Clan which pays Fate to rings to "tell the future", i.e. prevent cards from being played in Conflicts.

It will be a rough fit for the Lion and the Scorpion, honestly, due to both those Clans having such an antagonistic history with Minor Clans (see: The Three Man Alliance, history of Tonbo family and Tsuruchi, etc), but I am sure they can do something appropriate for the storyline and game.

For the time being, however, I am eagerly awaiting the new Imperial cards so I can finally make my Imperial deck.

I know personally as an old school Yoritomo's Alliance player I would hate to see the minor's dealt with this way as all you are doing is essentially turning the minor into vassal families for the great clans.  I wouldn't mind seeing them as neutrals with some sort of buff if they are played in certain clans (reduce fate cost by 1 if you are X clan, or add an additional fate when they enter play).  The main thing for me would be keeping them neutral so that when we eventually see an option for running an Alliance deck (which is actually my preferred method over just straight to Mantis as a great clan) they have the option of using the minors. 

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Some Minor Clans are admittedly just thinly-veiled satellites for Great Clans anyway. See, Monkey Clan and the Tonbo. However, having them made as Great Clan cards seems bad. I'm sure some die hard Fox were already frothing from the mouth when they joined the Mantis in oL5R, worst still when if they join the Crane (even if just as a card). 

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What about giving minor clan characters influence cost as neutral characters, with roles that allow you to ignore their influence cost. Crane with Fox Alliance role could use any number of Fox cards, but without using the role to make an alliance, they would be giving up their conflict deck splash for it.

Or for more leniency, if you want to associate some minor clans with great clans by default, give them card text saying, "Costs 0 Influence in Crane Decks."

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My only concern with adding roles is getting them balanced. If you don't put an element or keeper/seeker on it, the role (at least for now) will have a hard time competing with the official roles. On the other hand, if you add roles that include elements or keeper/seeker, then how do you keep them from devaluing/diluting FFG's locked roles system?

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57 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Or for more leniency, if you want to associate some minor clans with great clans by default, give them card text saying, "Costs 0 Influence in Crane Decks."

there's an interesting thought. I wonder if instead of card text though, there could be a "living document" updating periodically for which great clan(s) each minor clan is linked to for that benefit? Add it as a layer of player decision points like roles, so they can potentially influence their clan allegiances. 

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2 minutes ago, Kaito Kikaze said:

there's an interesting thought. I wonder if instead of card text though, there could be a "living document" updating periodically for which great clan(s) each minor clan is linked to for that benefit? Add it as a layer of player decision points like roles, so they can potentially influence their clan allegiances. 

I don't like having off-material information like that, but it's served clan roles well enough and it's probably merited here too. Each clan could have a list of 'alliances' that it gets some number of bonus influence for, or static rules text allowing ignoring of influence cost. There's a lot of room to work with if you've got a living document.

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I think if it had any sort of in-game effect, I'd definitely be against it myself. But as a deck building rule, I think it would best be presented in a separate space from the card text, like any other deck building rule. I'd even say that could be put right in the rrg, but that might lead to unnecessary updates to the document just to change that bit. 

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3 hours ago, Coyote Walks said:

Ah, just when I thought the "Screw you, old Mantis players!" attitude had died down....

I'm sure I still have something alcoholic left over from the "When someone complains about the existence of the Spider Clan..." drinking game somewhere...

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1 minute ago, sndwurks said:

I'm sure I still have something alcoholic left over from the "When someone complains about the existence of the Spider Clan..." drinking game somewhere...

Oh please that was just a poor bastard version of the "Mantis aren't really a Great Clan" drinking game.

 

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3 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Oh please that was just a poor bastard version of the "Mantis aren't really a Great Clan" drinking game.

 

Never said it wasn't. We just perfected it. ?

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So, I missed that whole section of lore. What does the Spider Clan bring the Empire? Apparently they received their status after saving the empire from something, but isn't part of their core to divide and destroy it, if not completely corrupt it with the shadowland taint?

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