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dragon76

Quick Question about Training Upgrades in RTL

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Once again, still working my way through the rules of RTL and came across another less than clear point concerning heroes and training.

It says that heroes may acquire one new skill or two trait upgrades when they choose the Train/Recup action for a game week.

In a city, this means either taking one of the skills available, or two of the traits available as designated on the map.

In a Secret Master area however they also have the option of upgrading their Health or their Fatigue once per level of the Campaign. 

My question is if they are in a Secret Master area can they upgrade both:

Health or Fatigue

and

Skill or two traits

Or should it be read as Health or Fatigue or Skill or two traits?

Looked through the FAQ and couldn't find anything on this in particular and while it may have already been answered in the forums I couldn't find it.

Thanks for your patience and help.  It is much appreciated.

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I don't think there is a FAQ for this, but in my game (which I am OL'ing) I read the health/fatigue upgrade as something you can do in addition to your normal skill / trait dice training in the same game week.

I read it as "( Health/Fatigue ) *and* (Skill or Dice)", considering that the heroes are only going to do this once per campaign level and only at a specific area. The other option is to say "( Health/Fatigue ) *or* (Skill or Dice)", and then the heroes have to spend a second week training.

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dragon76 said:

Once again, still working my way through the rules of RTL and came across another less than clear point concerning heroes and training.

It says that heroes may acquire one new skill or two trait upgrades when they choose the Train/Recup action for a game week.

In a city, this means either taking one of the skills available, or two of the traits available as designated on the map.

In a Secret Master area however they also have the option of upgrading their Health or their Fatigue once per level of the Campaign. 

My question is if they are in a Secret Master area can they upgrade both:

Health or Fatigue

and

Skill or two traits

Or should it be read as Health or Fatigue or Skill or two traits?

Looked through the FAQ and couldn't find anything on this in particular and while it may have already been answered in the forums I couldn't find it.

Thanks for your patience and help.  It is much appreciated.

One up grade only. 
Each is an 'option'. Something they can 'opt' to do.

When you train normally, you have Option A and Option B. When you train in a secret master you have option C - oh, and option A and option B. The natural usage of this 'and' is clearly exclusive (a list) due to C also being described as an 'option'.

The and can be taken as inclusive, without being technically incorrect (I think), but it is a very bad way of wording it that goes against natural usage.Not that the way they have worded it is good anyway, since it can be misinterpreted, but given the way the other rules work and the natural usage it beggars belief that they could really have meant heroes to be able to double train.

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From the RtL book:

If the hero party ends their game-week
movement in a Secret Master Area, nothing happens
immediately. However, if the heroes choose a Recuperate/Train
action while at a Secret Master Area, they have the option to
improve their maximum wounds or maximum fatigue. See
“Secret Training” on page 23 for detailed information. Heroes
can also opt to learn skills or improve their traits at Secret
Master Areas, in similar fashion to training at a city’s Training
Ground. See “Hero Upgrades” on page 23.

This makes me think that you can do both in a training week. The "can also opt" really seems to be saying that you purchase the health/fatigue upgrade, then train skills or dice.

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Nakarashi said:

 

From the RtL book:

If the hero party ends their game-week
movement in a Secret Master Area, nothing happens
immediately. However, if the heroes choose a Recuperate/Train
action while at a Secret Master Area, they have the option to
improve their maximum wounds or maximum fatigue. See
“Secret Training” on page 23 for detailed information. Heroes
can also opt to learn skills or improve their traits at Secret
Master Areas, in similar fashion to training at a city’s Training
Ground. See “Hero Upgrades” on page 23.

This makes me think that you can do both in a training week. The "can also opt" really seems to be saying that you purchase the health/fatigue upgrade, then train skills or dice.

 

 

Or it means that training for Skills and Trait dice is also available at Secret Training grounds and that you have to choose which one you do.

Definition of Opt: choose: as an alternative over another.

Also: semantically related to besides, in addition, likewise, as well

I'm sorry, but based on the actual definition and semantic usage of the words there is no way "can also opt" means that you can do health/fatigue and then also train skills or dice.

If you put in the definitions you get: Heroes can in addition as an alternative learn skills or improve their traits at Secret Master Areas, in similar fashion to training at a city’s Training Ground. See “Hero Upgrades” on page 23.

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Of course after posting I had been re-reading the rulebook and had found the additional information under Secret Master Area's where it does list them as options (should all be under training IMO and should be more clearly detailed I'm thinking).

As a result of that, and what's been said I'm definitely leaning towards the training resulting in a choice between the three options rather than the heroes getting two of the three options the first time they make it to a Secret Master area at each level of the campaign.

To me this feels more balanced.

Appreciate the help.

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I'm definitely with Nakarashi on this one.

They have the option to (A) or (B). Heroes can also opt to © or (D).

I see this as two independent choices. Compare with the following:

They have the option to (A) or (B). Heroes can instead opt to © or (D).

"Also" certainly seems to me to be an additional choice that the heroes can make. Given the poor wording in the rules as a whole, I wouldn't be shocked if it's supposed to work the way Corbon and Remy describe, but I don't think it's written that way.

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Or is means that apart from the health and fatigue upgrades that are only available at Secret Training areas, the heroes also have access to training for Skills and Dice.

The counter arguments are really all coming down to what people think the word "also" is supposed to mean.  I personally think from a mechanics standpoint that is very unbalanced to provide the heroes a location where they could basically get a free week of Training in by allowing them to train for two different things in one week.

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It may well work the way you describe, Remy. I'm more disputing the reasoning in Corbon's post and your first post. The "natural usage" or "actual definition" of the words does not support the reading you both describe. At best, the sentence is ambiguous.

As I've said before, though, I think it's more important to worry about what makes sense in-game than to pick apart words in rules that we all know are not very well-written. So if it really messes up the game balance to have a free week of training in this one case, then I'm definitely with you. I'm just not sure one reading really 'works' any better than the other in-game.

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mahkra said:

It may well work the way you describe, Remy. I'm more disputing the reasoning in Corbon's post and your first post. The "natural usage" or "actual definition" of the words does not support the reading you both describe. At best, the sentence is ambiguous.

As I've said before, though, I think it's more important to worry about what makes sense in-game than to pick apart words in rules that we all know are not very well-written. So if it really messes up the game balance to have a free week of training in this one case, then I'm definitely with you. I'm just not sure one reading really 'works' any better than the other in-game.

I'm sorry, but how does the definition of "opt" not support the reading?

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mahkra said:

 

It may well work the way you describe, Remy. I'm more disputing the reasoning in Corbon's post and your first post. The "natural usage" or "actual definition" of the words does not support the reading you both describe. At best, the sentence is ambiguous.

As I've said before, though, I think it's more important to worry about what makes sense in-game than to pick apart words in rules that we all know are not very well-written. So if it really messes up the game balance to have a free week of training in this one case, then I'm definitely with you. I'm just not sure one reading really 'works' any better than the other in-game.

 

Your argument is "that's not what opt means" (which is wrong, but whatever); additionally, you argue that you're not sure.

 

Exactly what is your point here?

Choose A or B.  Additional Options: C or D.  That is how it reads in English.  This is what opt means. Far too wordy and much worse than just listing the **** options, but whatever, it's still defined.

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I'm not saying "that's not what opt means". I'm saying that opt is being applied to the wrong part. It doesn't say to opt between (A) or (B) and © or (D). It says you get (A) or (B) AND you get to opt between © and (D).

I'm sure of my own reasoning, but I'm not trying to force my reasoning on anyone else. I'm all for everyone making up their own minds. What I was saying is that the professed logic did not support the conclusion reached, but that doesn't mean the conclusion is necessarily wrong. Like so many other things in the rules to this game, I think there is more than one "right" answer. I choose to play one way, but I don't think people are "wrong" to play differently.

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mahkra said:

I'm not saying "that's not what opt means". I'm saying that opt is being applied to the wrong part. It doesn't say to opt between (A) or (B) and © or (D). It says you get (A) or (B) AND you get to opt between © and (D).

I'm sure of my own reasoning, but I'm not trying to force my reasoning on anyone else. I'm all for everyone making up their own minds. What I was saying is that the professed logic did not support the conclusion reached, but that doesn't mean the conclusion is necessarily wrong. Like so many other things in the rules to this game, I think there is more than one "right" answer. I choose to play one way, but I don't think people are "wrong" to play differently.

The 'and' can be taken as inclusive, without being technically incorrect (I think), but it is a very bad way of wording it that goes against natural usage (of opt). Not that the way they have worded it is good anyway, since it can be misinterpreted, but given the way the other rules work, and the natural usage (of opt) it beggars belief that they could really have meant heroes to be able to double train.

Due to the multiple uses of 'and' in the english language, we are given two 'options' (sorry about the pun) here.
One 'option' creates consistency with the other wording used in the passage and also consistent with other similar areas of the rules.
The other 'option' ... well, it has nothing going for it except being possible.

Who gets to choose in a group which option to use? One option favours the OL, one option favours the heroes. The OL doesn't get to choose the rules, he's just a player. The heroes don't get to choose the rules, they are just players - and 4-1 odds makes a democratic solution unfair.
If everyone in a group has had an opportunity to make an informed opinion, and all agree, then you can play it either way and it doesn't matter much. If not all agree, or not all have the same opportunity to have an informed opinion, then you need to pick a 'better' solution

...it beggars belief that they could really have meant heroes to be able to double train...

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