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Gibarian

Why would anyone fly a Jumpmaster?

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2 hours ago, Duskwalker said:

Nope, it was still massively overpower after the second nerf. It took them 3 attempts to reign it in, so this time, they didn't want to take any chances. We will probably see a price decrees at some point, but many players associate the ship with bad play-experience and bad game design, so FFG wants to keep it out of the meta for now.   

Could someone remind me of the specific nerf phases? They never messed with the dial in 1.0, did they? The red right turns in 2.0 are what seem like a bridge too far. The predictability of only having one sloop direction is also bad.

Was it:

Nerf Phase 1: Deadeye depowered

Nerf Phase 2: Manaroo depowered, EPT removed from Contracted Scout?

Nerf Phase 3: Torpedo/Astromech slots removed?

Or is that timeline missing some of the changes and/or putting them out of order? Was there an Attanni Mindlink nerf in there somewhere too (that indirectly hurt Jumpmasters despite being targeted at other builds)?

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Basically after everyone hated it so much for being overpowered/undercosted for so long in 1E, FFG decided to pass it around the office and let everyone take a shot at it with the nerf bat for 2E, resulting in one awful, awful ship.

(Also don't forget it only has a single turret arc to the YT's two...)

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Actually the 2nd nerf didnt really do anything. The third nerf is what killed it.

First nerf: Deadeye small only
Second nerf: Manaroo R1 only
Third nerf: Punched its upgrade bar (i think it lost BOTH torps and the astro with the title adding astro back in)

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3 hours ago, Gibarian said:

Could someone remind me of the specific nerf phases? They never messed with the dial in 1.0, did they? The red right turns in 2.0 are what seem like a bridge too far. The predictability of only having one sloop direction is also bad.

Was it:

Nerf Phase 1: Deadeye depowered

Nerf Phase 2: Manaroo depowered, EPT removed from Contracted Scout?

Nerf Phase 3: Torpedo/Astromech slots removed?

Or is that timeline missing some of the changes and/or putting them out of order? Was there an Attanni Mindlink nerf in there somewhere too (that indirectly hurt Jumpmasters despite being targeted at other builds)?

IMHO, if it had had the 2.0 dial with the 1.0 specs, it probably would have been what was originally intended.

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Why?  Because Torpedoes > Missiles.  I honestly think anyone flying a Jumpmaster without a Torpedo is doing it wrong.  9 HP behind 2 green dice is a pretty tanky torpedo carrier.  It seems balanced against other similar ships.  Punisher, K-Wing, and Kimogila all have their own tricks (K-Wing has a double turret and SLAM, Punisher can throw bombs, Kimogila has a good front arc primary weapon--and all have reload), and the Jumpmaster has a weakness in it's dial, but that can probably be overcome through proper flying in a lot of situations.  Additionally, the Jumpmaster no longer has tricks to get target locks easily, or to turn around without stress.  At a fair price, it'd be a balanced ship.

Which points to the main issue issue: that the Jumpmaster is overpriced, and the scum YT-1300 is wicked underpriced.  Freighter Captain and Contracted Scout should both be like 49 points.  Han Solo at only 54 points is absurd.  If the two ships were fairly priced against each other, the Jumpmaster begins to make more sense.

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Problem is unless you also have missiles or another torpedo slot, torpedos arent that great either.

Either dive into R1 to deny Ptorps, which if they have Punishing One is still a 4die attack but lacks the crit mod and you get a R1 attack back (or just roll out of arc easier than at a distance) or avoid R1 like the plague to avoid AdvPTorps.

This is part of the reason the Gunboat, Punisher, Bomber, and Scurrg (to an extent, kimo too) are a bit more deadly. They can run the tools to stay a problem regardless of range. Gunboats use Ion Cannons but same idea, if you dive into my face you are gonna hurt but if you dont you are gonna hurt anyway.

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17 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Problem is unless you also have missiles or another torpedo slot, torpedos arent that great either.

Either dive into R1 to deny Ptorps, which if they have Punishing One is still a 4die attack but lacks the crit mod and you get a R1 attack back (or just roll out of arc easier than at a distance) or avoid R1 like the plague to avoid AdvPTorps.

This is part of the reason the Gunboat, Punisher, Bomber, and Scurrg (to an extent, kimo too) are a bit more deadly. They can run the tools to stay a problem regardless of range. Gunboats use Ion Cannons but same idea, if you dive into my face you are gonna hurt but if you dont you are gonna hurt anyway.

I'm not saying they're anything close to perfect torpedo carriers.  But they'd be fair ones, and that'd be a role they could perform, if they were properly priced.  A lot of the old Jumpmaster lists would use blocking as a tool to prevent range control.  In which case, it's a skill test.  Can the Jumpmaster player block the Range 1 dives, space out their other ships to take advantage.  Can the opposing player out-guess the positions, and so forth.  Being a large-base with a barrel roll is a different and unique toolset for a torpedo boat, but the mere fact of massive over-costing in relation to the capacity of the ship means anyone who tries to use the distinctive Jumpmaster will under-perform due to simply not having the points to build a fair list.

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16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm not saying they're anything close to perfect torpedo carriers.  But they'd be fair ones, and that'd be a role they could perform, if they were properly priced.

That price point needs to be quite low to take a JumpMaster over a Y-Wing if all you're after is a torpedo carrier though - a Hired Gun Y-Wing (the same Initiative as the JumpMaster) is 43 points with Proton Torpedoes, while a JumpMaster is 61.  The JumpMaster does have some perks over the Y-Wing (a shield, an extra green dice, an a mobile arc), but also has arguably a worse dial.  It's tough to see when you'd opt for the JumpMaster at that point differential.

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11 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

I thought 2.0 was supposed to be super-balanced and fair to the point where you could fly whatever you wanted and be competitive.

That didn’t last too long.

We have a few ships and pilots that are going to be adjusted to be viable.

 

In 1.0 we only had a few ships and pilots that were ever viable.

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It's unfortunate that they chose to permanently nerf the dial instead of using the built-in 2.0 balancing using points. I could see them nerfing the dial a little, but, c'mon. 

I think the JumpMaster could use the Sensor slot to give it a boost and an identity among Scum large ships. Imagine Dengar with Advanced Sensors or FCS.... it's thematic for a reconnaissance/scout craft and it makes the ship much more effective despite their best efforts to destroy it.

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You could argue that the 2.0 dial makes it rather unplayable next to other scum ships that are just better eg. Yt-1300 generic. They can rebalance he jumps power level but its stuck with that dial forever. If its relegated to being a torp carrier then it needs to get much better at that for it to be any good.

The 2.0 jumpmaster is a shell of its former self. It is not going to see significant play at the top tournament tables until it gets a buff. Its gone from most hated scum ship to subpar and overcosted. There was some stupidly powerful stuff from other factions in 1.0 but seems like the jumpmaster gets the most hate for ruining 1.0. Deserved or not, you have to agree its been nerfed out of competitive play for now.

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8 hours ago, gjnido said:

Also the timing of R4 agromech was changed to nerf it

Disagree. The ruling change did hurt the Jumpmaster, but that wasn't the reason. The ruling changed because the attack timing flowchart changed and the devs went back over every card that interacted with it and re-evaluated things based on their exact wording.

Edited by Quarrel

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8 hours ago, Jarval said:

That price point needs to be quite low to take a JumpMaster over a Y-Wing if all you're after is a torpedo carrier though - a Hired Gun Y-Wing (the same Initiative as the JumpMaster) is 43 points with Proton Torpedoes, while a JumpMaster is 61.  The JumpMaster does have some perks over the Y-Wing (a shield, an extra green dice, an a mobile arc), but also has arguably a worse dial.  It's tough to see when you'd opt for the JumpMaster at that point differential.

The base being 4 times the size of the Y's (2 smalls by 2 smalls) is a pretty big turn off for using it as a torp boat. The lack of reload as well.

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8 hours ago, RogerWilco15 said:

It's unfortunate that they chose to permanently nerf the dial instead of using the built-in 2.0 balancing using points. I could see them nerfing the dial a little, but, c'mon. 

I think the JumpMaster could use the Sensor slot to give it a boost and an identity among Scum large ships. Imagine Dengar with Advanced Sensors or FCS.... it's thematic for a reconnaissance/scout craft and it makes the ship much more effective despite their best efforts to destroy it.

Like, if 2e Jumpmaster only had one red right turn, instead of both?  A white rotate action that isn't linked?  I still think it'd be a bit pricey at current costs, but probably playable.

I'm less sure a Sensor slot would be right. It'd be potent: Lock or Focus into one of those high-value red moves with Advanced Sensors.  Dengar having FCS for his double-taps.  Personally, the way I'd give it back flexibility would be to have kept the Talent slot on the Contracted Scout.  It could be removed later if it was a problem, but going with Intimidation or Expert Handling would have made a Bumpmaster a lot more plausible.  I mean, generic Kimogila has a Talent slot...  Additionally, I kind of wish there was a "crew or droid" option all ships, rather than Punishing One being the hard switch.  That could have been an interesting ship ability, like how a Scyk gets a Cannon, Torpedo, or Missile.

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