A Discussion About Investigators We Do & Do Not Have

[Assussanni 528]

3 minutes ago, Moon-beast King said:

I was surprised not to see Monterey Jack in the Forgotton Ages core set. He wasn't in the Dunwhich Legacy, was he in the Path to Carcosa?

Nope, no sign of the Archaeologist in any of the deluxe boxes yet.

[rsdockery 537]

No, he hasn't been released yet.

[tsuruki 197]

8 hours ago, Moon-beast King said:

I was surprised not to see Monterey Jack in the Forgotton Ages core set. He wasn't in the Dunwhich Legacy, was he in the Path to Carcosa?

Yeah, my guess is that we'll first see him in a novel, to be announced in 3 weeks.

[tsuruki 197]

At this point there's 8 unexplored 2-class combinations left. 

Seeker|Rogue
Rogue|Seeker

These are movement and wealth-explosive factions, Milan, Lone wolf, Streetwise, Education, these guys are gonna be rolling in Perston Fairmont Levels of cash and strong methods to leverage it, then you have Pathfinder and Shortcut and Leo De Luca and Quick Thinking and..... Yeah, absolutely drowning in actions and cash. I'm predicting some extra deck limitations and interesting stat lineups, personally I bet that the Rogue|Seeker is gonna have a relatively low intellect and be more fighty/sneaky then clue-y, basically a Roland mirror, "Whenever you evade an enemy discover 1 clue at your location"? Seeker|Rogue on the other hand I wouldn't be surprised to see acting in a support role a-la Minh, perhaps and in-built ability to share resources?

They opened the can of worms of funny statlines on 2-class investigators in Diana and Preston, statlines that don't total 12 stats, I'm guessing this trend will continue. The exact investigators? I'm guessing Monterey Jack for one.
 

Mystic|Rogue

Yeah, no idea. it took me a while to learn to like Sefina (And I really like her now, tarot for the win!) but I really don't know what this combination has to offer. Spells + actions and money? I hope it's sufficiently different from Sefine though. The cool thing about getting the other half of a Class combo is that it really defines/refines the character's role, what does Roland do that Joe doesn't and vice versa. That Magician guy seems like a sure thing, Dexter Drake.

Survivor|Mystic

We already have the other combo and manipulating tokens, manipulating tests doesn't seem a theme for her moreso then other mystics/survivors. Wendy and Mateo are the only token interacting characters so a combination of their primary classes might be a natural token seal ability of some sort? It'd also be fun to see a left turn and have this one be a high-intellect character with clue collection affinity, a researcher/explorer with a penchant for getting in trouble with the arcane, it'd be a new take on survivors for sure. 

Guardian|Survivor

From the other games we can surmize that this'll be that cop on Close call, Tommy Muldoon. From the outset I can see typically high strength guardian attacks and survivor cards that scavenge poor token draws going well together. Another 2-2-4-4 statline? 3-1-4-4?

Survivor|Seeker

The only /seeker(2) character so far is Roland and his intellect is just 3, there is plenty of design space for a cluey survivor or flexy seeker and this seems like the right place for either of those combinations. A 2-4-2-4 or 2-4-3-3 statline? Card draw and speed + Test manipulation and discard mechanics are proven to be good in Minh, I expect that to continue here.

Mystic|Seeker

Speed and spells baby, though this one is definitely going to be completely defined by the statline, high Willpower or High intellect? Marie exists so it probably cannot be equal, perhaps a mechanic that boosts Intellect by the number of spells you have in play?

Guardian|Mystic

This one is hard, I dont actually see much potential here, the two most expensive factions spliced together. Diana has a whole cancellation theme going and is pushed a bit away from relying just on mystic tricks, so I guess the ability is going to define this one too.

 

[Eldan985 360]

Guardian Mystic is still my choice for Lilly Chen. If I had to make a few more guesses for what she can do, martial arts could be something simple like +1 bonus damage if you attack with no weapon. Or something more involved. I like the idea of some kind of mechanic where she could spend spell charges to charge up her punches, but that might be a bit too... Shonen. 

Her usual ability has been something to trade damage for horror or vice versa. That could be her signature card. Meditation. As a fast action, take one horror to heal one damage, or vice versa. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Eldan985

[Duciris 1,347]

I expect Lilly Chen to be Guardian (no bets on other) with the ability to attack with a non-firearm weapon at +1 Fight, +1 Damage.

That might make Knife to valuable, though.

[phorcys12 60]

For Lilly Chen, as a pro in martial art, I see her doing a +1 damage when fighting without weapon. Like a 2 basis damage character. This more fluffy than a user of katana and shuriken, even if this is pretty cool I think ^^ I want her to come soon anyway, I really like the asian savor, as for akachi or minh. 

[Soakman 987]

11 hours ago, Eldan985 said:

Guardian Mystic is still my choice for Lilly Chen. If I had to make a few more guesses for what she can do, martial arts could be something simple like +1 bonus damage if you attack with no weapon. Or something more involved. I like the idea of some kind of mechanic where she could spend spell charges to charge up her punches, but that might be a bit too... Shonen. 

Her usual ability has been something to trade damage for horror or vice versa. That could be her signature card. Meditation. As a fast action, take one horror to heal one damage, or vice versa. 

As far as charging attacks, that’s pretty much what torrent of power already does. I was sort of wondering what a mystic with a restriction on not including spells (like a reverse Carolyn of sorts) would look like but I’m not sure that’s lily mostly because of clarity of mind. You could probably still make use of the practiced, charms, and Auguries. I almost see her as more a survivor mystic due to improvised weapons and alter fate.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Soakman

[rsdockery 537]

6 hours ago, Soakman said:

As far as charging attacks, that’s pretty much what torrent of power already does. I was sort of wondering what a mystic with a restriction on not including spells (like a reverse Carolyn of sorts) would look like but I’m not sure that’s lily mostly because of clarity of mind. You could probably still make use of the practiced, charms, and Auguries. I almost see her as more a survivor mystic due to improvised weapons and alter fate.

Inspiration!

[Eldan985 360]

Why spells 0-5? I mean, a quick look at Arkham DB shows me that the only L4 or L5 mystic card that isn't a spell is Grotesque statue, but why explicitely forbid her that? 

 

And I still think I'd rather have her as a guardian than a mystic. My suggestion would be something like 

 

Mystic 0-2

Guardian 0-5

Restriction: may not take firearms. 

 

I mean, let me handle this, if it bleeds, I've had worse, Monster Slayer (not a good card, really, but thematic)? 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Eldan985

[Soakman 987]

Thematically there are some interesting out-of-class non-mystic spells that make a good fit with Lilly.

Alter Fate, Guiding Stones (prophecy foretold), suggestion, feed the mind.... guiding stones would not work well for her with a low int. Though. I also think her ability is too strong. And if you're going for extra attack/damage when you don't have anything equipped, I still feel like survivor is the way to go as they are the class that turn the tables. And it would synergize with improvised weapon, because it does not take a slot to use.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Soakman

[Eldan985 360]

  I mean, true, but there's some out of class cards that would fit well with almost any investigator. And overall, I still think the high level guardian cards make more sense for her than high-level spells. 

[rsdockery 537]

5 hours ago, Eldan985 said:

Why spells 0-5? I mean, a quick look at Arkham DB shows me that the only L4 or L5 mystic card that isn't a spell is Grotesque statue, but why explicitely forbid her that? 

I was playing off the idea of "Mystic Carolyn." She can't take Mystic spells, but she can take other spells.

1 hour ago, Soakman said:

Thematically there are some interesting out-of-class non-mystic spells that make a good fit with Lilly.

Alter Fate, Guiding Stones (prophecy foretold), suggestion, feed the mind.... guiding stones would not work well for her with a low int. Though. I also think her ability is too strong. And if you're going for extra attack/damage when you don't have anything equipped, I still feel like survivor is the way to go as they are the class that turn the tables. And it would synergize with improvised weapon, because it does not take a slot to use.

She kind of has to have a low int, doesn't she? Thematically, she wants decent-to-good will, combat, and evade, which would make int the dump stat. Makes perfect sense, too, given she was raised in a monastery; remember that, despite its icon, intellect is less about book learning and more about general investigative ability.

As for her ability being powerful, that was intentional. Remember that she can't access most high-level attacks, so she's relying on that ability for all her damage. She's also quite limited in her soak options, since most assets interfere with her fighting style (Mind and Body is meant to help her out there, but it's only a singleton).

Lastly, I couldn't fit her weakness in the attachment limit, even with eye-searingly bad quality, but it was a standard "add to your threat area" treachery with "Forced--At the end of the round, place 1 doom on the nearest valid enemy" and "[Reaction] When you defeat an enemy: Flip each doom token on it to its clue side and place it here. If there are 3 or more clue tokens on Ancient Conspiracy, discard it."

[Khudzlin 734]

1 hour ago, rsdockery said:

I was playing off the idea of "Mystic Carolyn." She can't take Mystic spells, but she can take other spells.

With those restrictions, she can take all Mystic spells, because they fit the "Spell cards level 0-5" clause.

[rsdockery 537]

Just now, Khudzlin said:

With those restrictions, she can take all Mystic spells, because they fit the "Spell cards level 0-5" clause.

She can't. It's in the Deckbuilding Restrictions section: No Mystic spells.

[Khudzlin 734]

2 minutes ago, rsdockery said:

She can't. It's in the Deckbuilding Restrictions section: No Mystic spells.

I missed that (it's an uncommon section). My bad.

[Eldan985 360]

I didn't see that either, my apologies.

 

That would make her selection quite weak, though? There's only like 5 non-mystic spells above level 0 out there.  And she can't take any other high level cards. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Eldan985

[rsdockery 537]

9 minutes ago, Eldan985 said:

 That would make her selection quite weak, though? There's only like 5 non-mystic spells above level 0 out there.  And she can't take any other high level cards. 

True. Part of the difficulty is that she shouldn't have a lot of equipment, being a martial artist and all, so most of her power should be front-loaded. She's a very good fighter without any investment, so the trade-off should be that she can't invest as much; otherwise, she's just your average monster-hunter, except she ignores Corrosion and whatnot. It's a tricky balance that can't be hit with something I made in a half-hour on a whim.

Hm... What if she also had Spirit 0-5? That would give her access to several powerful high-level events, all of which are perfectly in-theme for her. It also follows up on her Guardian/Survivor access, without also giving her high-level weapons or other assets.

[Soakman 987]

26 minutes ago, rsdockery said:

True. Part of the difficulty is that she shouldn't have a lot of equipment, being a martial artist and all, so most of her power should be front-loaded. She's a very good fighter without any investment, so the trade-off should be that she can't invest as much; otherwise, she's just your average monster-hunter, except she ignores Corrosion and whatnot. It's a tricky balance that can't be hit with something I made in a half-hour on a whim.

Hm... What if she also had Spirit 0-5? That would give her access to several powerful high-level events, all of which are perfectly in-theme for her. It also follows up on her Guardian/Survivor access, without also giving her high-level weapons or other assets.

I think Tactics or Improvised would work better than Spirit. But most of all of these suggestions are driven by survivor selections. Even spirit cards are really. Why are we so convinced she'll be a guardian?  If you like a lot of the guardian events, Make her a Mystic/Survivor, with spells 0-5, no mystic spells, and tactics (lvl 0-1 gives you a couple more interesting options). It opens up her card pool while inherently preventing weapon selections. If you are using Lilly, a LARGE portion of guardian cards are going to be useless to you, especially with the ability on the card as it is. I cannot think of a weapon short of the flamethrower or Lightning gun that might be better than just punching in her case. 

Survivor has some ideal picks for a martial artist: Able-Bodied, Cornered, Bait and Switch, Cunning Distraction, Hiding Spot, Fight or Flight, Improvised weapons/barriers, On your own, Rise to the Occasion, Resourceful, Stunning blow (how much more on the nose can you get), Waylay, Not without a fight... etc etc etc.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Soakman

[rsdockery 537]

13 minutes ago, Soakman said:

 Survivor has some ideal picks for a martial artist: Able-Bodied, Cornered, Bait and Switch, Cunning Distraction, Hiding Spot, Fight or Flight, Improvised weapons/barriers, On your own, Rise to the Occasion, Resourceful, Stunning blow (how much more on the nose can you get), Waylay, Not without a fight... etc etc etc.

On Your Own is level 3, so a Mystic/Survivor wouldn't get it. I agree with the rest, which is why I've been trying to get her Survivor access (though she doesn't get Cornered in my build). And I actually did consider giving her Tactic access, but the highest-level Tactic we have is Barricade (***).

35 minutes ago, Soakman said:

If you are using Lilly, a LARGE portion of guardian cards are going to be useless to you, especially with the ability on the card as it is. I cannot think of a weapon short of the flamethrower or Lightning gun that might be better than just punching in her case. 

She's still got Vicious Blow, all the various Guardian clue tricks, If It Bleeds and Emergency Aid for healing, Trusted/True Grit/Xavier for healing, Beat Cop, etc. (as well as a bunch of great Tactics, but she gets those in either version).

As for her ability, yeah, I was a little worried about going overboard there. The reason she might want a weapon is that she'd be able use accessories and armor alongside it, and I was afraid a +2 wouldn't be enough incentive to eschew all that.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if I should drop her base combat to 3 (and boost her Will to 4 as compensation), so her ability puts her at 6 skill rather than 7. That puts her on par with Mark at level 0 and most other Guardians after the first few scenarios. A bit of a shame that it makes events worse for her, though, but needs must.

(If I were to go with Mystic/Survivor with Tactics access, I'd probably also boost her intellect to 2, making her a 4/2/3/3.)

[Allonym 954]

In honesty, the design seems highly weak in general. With an int of 1 and no access to any consistent investigation alternatives (Lockpicks or Rite of Seeking), her only role in a team is monster-hunter. In the first scenario she might be alright, able to essentially have an unrestricted Machete attacking at 7 if she has no assets in play, but she'll quickly fall off a cliff in terms of effectiveness. Consider that her fighting ability if she's holding a flashlight (and she had better, if she wants to be able to contribute in any way except monster-hunting and occasional events) is equivalent to Mark Harrigan with a machete, and Mark will get much stronger as he gets exp and access to big guns, or Timeworn Brand and Reliable, or whatever, and he can buff himself up with Sophie to pass tough intellect tests, and he has good card draw economy. I don't see this investigator being able to contribute to a team effectively after the first couple of scenarios.

[Soakman 987]

I dunno. I've never been much of a Lilly fan, but even as a guardian, scene of the crimes and evidence will net you a fair amount of clues so long as you are not planning on being the primary investigator. She's a bit of a one-trick pony, but sometimes it's the trick you would like to have.  Not having access to flashlight without crippling your fight is pretty bad though, but you can always take desparate attack or whatever that new survivor card is to throw it away and get your bonus back. And personally, with a flashlight, +2 and +1 damage is still better than I see on a lot of investigators carrying a flashlight... or at least as good.

I think an interesting weakness might counter her ability in some way and help counter it... like Burden of Responsibility, which might take up a hand, a body, and an accessory slot. As an action, you must give control of Burden of Responsibility to another investigator at your location if able and add a resource to it from the token bank. When there are 3 resources on Burden of Responsibility, remove it from the game. This is just a rough idea, but it would be interesting to see Lilly struggling with letting others help her with her burden. And if you pass it to another investigator, it means that you won't have to spend all 3 actions yourself to get rid of it at the potential of disarming other investigators. It also has the additional side-effect of keep Lilly out of other people's locations if she wants to relieve herself without disrupting her friends.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Soakman

[Assussanni 528]

Off the top of my head, if you want a weaponless fighter who also has spells, her ability could be “Action: Fight. You get +1 combat and deal +1 damage for each asset you have in play that occupies an arcane slot.” Since this would make her have a 3 damage “weapon” for 0xp you’d probably want to keep her base combat score quite low, so that xp would go into cards that boost combat. It might also finally make Book of Shadows (3) useful to someone! Or keep her combat high but limit it to once per turn if you don’t want to remove the need for weapons.

Her weakness could be an asset that takes up the double arcane slot (gasp, it has been in the rule book since the start and still hasn’t been used), has some nasty effect, and can’t leave play until some condition has been satisfied... That’s pretty vague, sorry, I’m not really familiar with Lily’s backstory.

[rsdockery 537]

2 hours ago, Allonym said:

In honesty, the design seems highly weak in general. With an int of 1 and no access to any consistent investigation alternatives (Lockpicks or Rite of Seeking), her only role in a team is monster-hunter. In the first scenario she might be alright, able to essentially have an unrestricted Machete attacking at 7 if she has no assets in play, but she'll quickly fall off a cliff in terms of effectiveness. Consider that her fighting ability if she's holding a flashlight (and she had better, if she wants to be able to contribute in any way except monster-hunting and occasional events) is equivalent to Mark Harrigan with a machete, and Mark will get much stronger as he gets exp and access to big guns, or Timeworn Brand and Reliable, or whatever, and he can buff himself up with Sophie to pass tough intellect tests, and he has good card draw economy. I don't see this investigator being able to contribute to a team effectively after the first couple of scenarios.

All good points, though I agree with Soakman about Guardians gathering clues. Flashlight may have been crucial once, and it's still very good for certain investigators, but nowadays you've got enough alternatives that you don't need to run it in every deck. Besides, at 3+ players, it's perfectly viable to run a pure fighter who never collects a single clue, so long as the rest of the team can investigate at least moderately well. I've done it myself, and I've played with people who've done it.

I feel like this does confirm that she need Guardian access. She doesn't need to be better than Mark (as I said before, if she can outfight Mark without playing a single card, she's ovepowered), but she needs to be good enough that she's not a pure gimmick (sorry, Ms Hayes).

39 minutes ago, Soakman said:

I think an interesting weakness might counter her ability in some way and help counter it... like Burden of Responsibility, which might take up a hand, a body, and an accessory slot. As an action, you must give control of Burden of Responsibility to another investigator at your location if able and add a resource to it from the token bank. When there are 3 resources on Burden of Responsibility, remove it from the game. This is just a rough idea, but it would be interesting to see Lilly struggling with letting others help her with her burden. And if you pass it to another investigator, it means that you won't have to spend all 3 actions yourself to get rid of it at the potential of disarming other investigators. It also has the additional side-effect of keep Lilly out of other people's locations if she wants to relieve herself without disrupting her friends.

That's an interesting weakness, to be sure. Not sure how to make it work thematically. I guess it would need the Curse trait?

[Allonym 954]

2 hours ago, Soakman said:

I dunno. I've never been much of a Lilly fan, but even as a guardian, scene of the crimes and evidence will net you a fair amount of clues so long as you are not planning on being the primary investigator. She's a bit of a one-trick pony, but sometimes it's the trick you would like to have.  Not having access to flashlight without crippling your fight is pretty bad though, but you can always take desparate attack or whatever that new survivor card is to throw it away and get your bonus back. And personally, with a flashlight, +2 and +1 damage is still better than I see on a lot of investigators carrying a flashlight... or at least as good.

 

But...all Guardians can do that. Every single investigator in the game has some clue gathering events, and all scenarios have locations you can reliably spend a turn investigating using Flashlight, so not taking a Flashlight makes you the worst at gathering clues in the game. And all Guardians have access to ample weapons that are initially comparable in power to her hand-to-hand combat ability, and later on can use various weapons that are exceptionally more efficient. I guess she also has access to "Look What I Found!" and Drawn to the Flame, but so does Zoey, and Yorick can recur investigation tools like the Shovel and use "Look What I Found!", Roland has Seeker investigation tools, Mark can investigate by punching himself in a pinch, Leo already has decent investigative ability. Act of Desparation to throw a flashlight just to get a +1 to hit means that she needs to pack a card for no other purpose, just to be able to be slightly better than base Mark with a machete.

In addition, all of those investigators actually have a really useful Investigator Ability, whereas this investigator merely has something akin to "You start with a Machete in play". Which I mean, not awful but hardly makes for an interesting or effective character. So, I stand by my statement that this can only be a monster-hunter, and scales worse than the other monster-hunters in the game. Her broad deckbuilding spread has potential but I don't think it necessarily leads to something cohesive (whereas Carolyn has the ability to take a unique support role, create a powerful resource engine, tank, lean into mystic, etc.) I feel like Lily needs an investigator ability that does something more unique, as otherwise she'll be playing catch-up with "real" monster-hunters with nothing to show for it, but the idea of her having good combat ability with no setup is still a really good one (and feels very survivor-y, like Ashcan Pete).

In Eldritch Horror, Lily's ability is that she can train all of her abilities better than anyone else, so while she starts out less than amazing at lore, she can quickly get up to a decent level. She can fight pretty well, but isn't completely constrained elsewhere once she puts effort into developing herself. I initially thought about something to do with experience and training between each scenario but that doesn't work well with standalone mode and is kind of awkward and boring, so instead, how about this as an ability spread:

3 Will, 2 Intellect, 3 Combat, 3 Agility. 8 Health, 7 Sanity.

Investigator Ability: [free triggered], take one damage or one horror: Heal one damage or one horror. Limit once per round.

Elder sign: +1. Add 2 resources to Martial Focus.

Signature asset: Martial Focus. Permanent, Talent. At the start of the round, add 2 resources to Martial Focus. At the end of the round, discard all resources from Martial Focus. Resources on Martial Focus may be spent to pay for abilities on Talent assets you control. [Action], spend 1 resource: Fight. Add your [agility] to your skill value for this attack. This attack deals +1 damage. If you fail by 2 or more, take 1 damage.

Signature weakness: Know Your Limits. Flaw. Revelation: Put Know Your Limits into play in your threat area, with 3 damage on it. If there is no damage on Know Your Limits, discard it. Treat the printed text box of all Talent assets you control as blank, and treat all damage and horror as direct damage and horror. Forced: At the end of the round, or after you succeed at a skill test by 2 or more, move one damage from Know Your Limits to your investigator card.

Deckbuilding: Survivor cards level 0-3, Neutral cards level 0-5, Talent cards level 0-2, up to 15 Mystic and/or Guardian cards level 0-1. Additional restrictions: No more than 3 Permanent cards, no Firearm cards.

Basically cannibalised Preston, Carolyn and Jenny to make someone who later on can do anything if she needs to with boosts and who might actually make use of Composure talents. I was also considering Practiced and Developed instead of Talent, as it might be too easy to just get 2 matching boost talents, but then you'd just take Scrapper and Plucky anyway. That was the reason behind the Permanent restriction. The fact that she's disincentivised to take Charisma and likes a strong economy means that she is more likely to use On Your Own, though Peter S. would be an obvious choice with her inherent ability. I considered allowing her to take damage/horror to recharge Martial Focus but that seemed too powerful and too similar to Mark Harrigan. My only concern is that Survivor 0-3 is essentially Survivor 0-5 right now, but 0-2 seems too restrictive and she definitely feels like a Survivor.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Allonym