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Duciris

A Discussion About Investigators We Do & Do Not Have

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Having overthought this too much, I will share my results.

On the subject of multiclass investigators (investigators with deckbuilding options of 0-5XP Class A & 0-2XP Class B), we've seen 9 so far.

Guardian|Seeker:  Roland Banks
Seeker|Guardian:  N/A
Seeker|Rogue:  N/A
Rogue|Seeker:  N/A
Rogue|Mystic:  Sefina Rousseau
Mystic|Rogue:  N/A
Mystic|Survivor:  Agnes Baker
Survivor|Mystic:  N/A
Survivor|Guardian:  William Yorick
Guardian|Survivor:  N/A
Guardian|Rogue:  Leo Anderson
Rogue|Guardian:  "Skids" O'Toole
Rogue|Survivor:  N/A
Survivor|Rogue:  Wendy Adams
Survivor|Seeker:  N/A
Seeker|Survivor:  Mihn Thi Phan
Seeker|Mystic:  Daisy Walker
Mystic|Seeker:  N/A
Mystic|Guardian:  N/A
Guardian|Mystic:  N/A

I wasn't expecting them to do both Multiclass A|B & B|A, however Leo & "Skids" mirror each other.  Ignoring that, we're missing a Rogue-Seeker and a Mystic-Guardian mash-up.

I'm not really expecting them to cookie-cutter 20 of the 55 investigators so that we have all possibilities, just thought I'd bring my findings to the discussion table.

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I agree. I've been looking for the other combinations as well, although I was not surprised to see the five "pure class" (Dunwich) investigators come out early. The current trend in Keyword investigators is frustrating since some of them (Blessed for example) really don't offer anything yet, it's more of an IOU for future expansions.

In order to fit in everything that's implied by the above, I think they're planning VERY long term, probably another 3-4 years' worth of deluxe expansions at least.

 

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8 minutes ago, CSerpent said:

Is Norman a Seeker|Mystic or a Mystic|Seeker?

He's weirder.  He's 0XP Seeker & 1-5XP Mystic, plus up to 5 0XP Mystic.

I'm tempted to play him in an upcoming Carcosa campaign, but I think Daisy and Ursula are stronger Seekers candidates.

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2 hours ago, Duciris said:

He's weirder.  He's 0XP Seeker & 1-5XP Mystic, plus up to 5 0XP Mystic.

I'm tempted to play him in an upcoming Carcosa campaign, but I think Daisy and Ursula are stronger Seekers candidates.

I played him along side Skids in Carcosa.  It was mostly fine, but he ended up alone in the penultimate scenario and wasn't fast enough.

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One thing that remains to be seen is whether some of the preview investigators' unusual deckbuilding requirements will be mirrored in the other investigators that come out with them.

What I mean by this is that the Core set and Dunwich have completely consistent deckbuilding for their investigators - 5/2 for Core and mono-class/5 flex for Dunwich. At that point it seemed possible that each new deluxe would have a consistent gimmick for the investigators it added. After that, though, things got a bit more unusual.

Mark, Akachi, Mateo, Ursula and Calvin all have single class + 'any class, one keyword', with different level restrictions on the keyword cards, potentially based on how powerful that keyword is - but they came out across both Carcosa and Forgotten Age and we see the same in Silas from the promos, so it's not like that was the "theme" of deckbuilding for Carcosa or whatever, and Leo, Sefina, Yorick and Minh all have the same deckbuilding style as Core - 5/2. Meanwhile, Finn and Marie have deckbuilding that is kind of like a more restrictive version of the Dunwich five, but with the Keyword option of Mark et al as well - though since all the Illicit cards so far are Rogue or Finn signature cards anyway, Finn's requirements are currently just a strictly inferior version of Jenny's. However, while these newer deckbuilding requirements aren't consistent across a single Deluxe box, there are multiple people with the same kind of requirement limitations.

 

But then we have Carolyn and Norman representing approaches unlike any other investigators. As already stated, Norman has a completely new approach, where he starts out as one class, a Seeker with a smattering of Mystic, but as he upgrades he becomes more and more Mystic - kind of like he's leaving behind his old life as a scholar and embracing life as a sorcerer - it's an evocative set of requirements that almost tells a story with the mechanics.

Then we have Carolyn, my favourite investigator. Her deckbuilding requirements are utterly bizarre. For the unaware, she's a Guardian despite having only 2 Combat, and like Finn she's only allowed up to level 3 in her own class. She is allowed up to 15 level 0-1 Mystic and/or Seeker cards, but any number of cards levels 0-5 from any class that "heal horror". In addition, she's got a pretty major deckbuilding limitation in that she is not allowed any Weapon cards above level 0 (making her the only investigator in the game who is not allowed certain Neutral cards). This means she can theoretically have upgraded cards from all 5 classes, but has an identity completely at odds with the normal job of her main class, and usually starts with only a small minority of cards in her deck actually being from her main class.

 

I would be fascinated to know whether these deckbuilding mechanics will appear on other investigators, either across an entire cycle (like if all 5 investigators in the expected Dreamlands cycle have esoteric, counterintuitive 3-class split requirements like Carolyn, say a Seeker who ends up as a Guardian/Survivor monster basher and can't investigate for toffee) or scattered here and there (like if we see several other investigators like Norman, say, Amanda Sharpe the Student starts as a Survivor but learns to become a scholarly Seeker). It might be that these are just one-off weird restrictions - but if that's the case, we could also expect lots of other off-the-wall investigator types instead of just filling out the roster with 5/2 and one-class-plus-appropriate-keyword restrictions. Lola is clearly a unique case as she's perfectly balanced between all the classes, but we might also see other neutral investigators - for instance, someone whose deckbuilding requirements are purely keyword or card text-based without any reference to a class (Charlie Kane, Neutral 0-5, Ally cards 0-3, Cards that allow you to "Gain resources" 0-5?).

 

One final thing to note is that the other parts of investigator mechanics seem to change depending on deckbuilding. The baseline for investigators seems to be total 12 stat points and total 14 Health/Sanity. The Dunwich investigators all have 1 additional total Health/Sanity compared to other investigators (apart from Pete who is obviously a special case), which I can only assume is to make up for their more restrictive deckbuilding requirements. Akachi and Mark both have 1 extra stat point, which might be to help round out their flexibility or make up for their limited deckbuilding options. Carolyn is down 1 stat point compared to the norm, but has an extra point of Sanity/Health - I'd personally say that San/HP is less valuable than stats overall, but it's not clear whether this is just because the designers think her deckbuilding restrictions are very powerful, or whether it is also there to reinforce her tanking/support role. Pete is also down 1 stat point but again it's a special case because of Duke. Calvin and Lola are both down to 6/6 Health/Sanity, which seems to be a way to counteract their extreme flexibility (of course, in Calvin's case, it also directly limits the power of his investigator ability).

 

The point of my post, essentially is to point out how I see the underlying thought processes behind investigators and that there's other factors to take into account beyond simple class identity, as well as to ask whether other investigators might end up being in the vein of the weirder promo investigators, and whether other investigators might have equally but differently non-standard restrictions. There's a really broad possible design space being showcased with investigator classes and deckbuilding, so I don't think there's necessarily any reason to assume that other investigators will fill in the blanks in the existing pattern of design.

Edited by Allonym

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10 minutes ago, CSerpent said:

One addendum to all of that: Rex has an anti-Trait rule -- no Fortunes.

He does indeed, but I couldn't really find a place to mention it. It's not as a big deal as Carolyn's no weapons, since it (so far) only prevents him taking a handful of Survivor and Rogue cards with his 5 flex slots. To me it's just a little flavour thing rather than any significant part of his mechanics.

By the same token, it would also be fun to talk about what kind of other flavour restrictions might exist in future - or indeed flavour deckbuilding benefits, as Mateo's "Blessed" card allowance is more like a little bit of extra fun than anything major in how you build his deck (compare with Silas' "Innate" allowance, which is core to his character alongside his investigator ability).

Edited by Allonym

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This isn't exactly wholly accurate (Dunwich investigators, and so on) but I've had this sheet for a while where I track what fits. Nothing much to add beyond how I felt like Carolyn could almost be played as a Guardian/Mystic hybrid, depending on party...

Screen Shot 2018-10-09 at 11.56.24.png

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12 hours ago, Allonym said:

But then we have Carolyn and Norman representing approaches unlike any other investigators. As already stated, Norman has a completely new approach, where he starts out as one class, a Seeker with a smattering of Mystic, but as he upgrades he becomes more and more Mystic - kind of like he's leaving behind his old life as a scholar and embracing life as a sorcerer - it's an evocative set of requirements that almost tells a story with the mechanics.

Exactly.  He reflects his novella arc (or is it the reverse) so well.

We should also be seeing previews of the next cycle any day now (unless they're saving it for next weeks Arkham Nights) so we should have more information to aid in our speculation.

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8 hours ago, zooeyglass said:

This isn't exactly wholly accurate (Dunwich investigators, and so on) but I've had this sheet for a while where I track what fits. Nothing much to add beyond how I felt like Carolyn could almost be played as a Guardian/Mystic hybrid, depending on party...

Screen Shot 2018-10-09 at 11.56.24.png

I don't know if it's just on my end, but I can't open that image as anything larger than the thumbnail in your link...

Either way, Carolyn really doesn't work as a hybrid of two classes in the same way - if anything, she feels closer to a Seeker than anything else, but with all the tanking, support and non-combat tricks of Guardian and stat boosts of Mystic (and she absolutely loves Alyssa Graham...). She really is a pretty unique three-class blend. To my mind, "hybrid Mystic/Guardian" means "Shoots things like a guardian but also uses spells like a mystic", and despite her Novella, Carolyn shouldn't shoot anything at all (I like to think of her dream .45 as being a version of level 0 Shrivelling...).

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I love speculating about investigators, but there's only one that I currently care about, and it is Patrice Hathaway.

I feel like she is going to be a mirror of Sefina. In other words, a Mystic/Rogue - As a famous violinist, I can see cards like "Watch This!" and other resource generation cards being in line with Patrice, but I'm not sure how the overall illicit side of things would fit with her.   It would be interesting to see her as a Mystic with access to Gambit keyword cards (only 3 atm). 

I could also see her as a high willpower Survivor/Mystic that includes lvl 0-5 'song' cards (though Song of the dead is the only one). But if you take this angle, you could really make her anything, even a high willpower Survivor/Seeker that can include Song cards. 

She has a lot of potential, and her ability (in other Arkham Files games) nearly always includes a way to send or receive clues which has interesting mechanical applications in the LCG. Imagine an ability that could generate clues at a location, give them to other players who may need them to open new locations, or even send them to your seeker to enhance his/her "I've Got a Plan!"

With my luck she won't come out for another 3 or 4 cycles, but she and Gloria are next in line on my most wanted list.

Edited by Soakman

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Oh weird, @Allonym, I actually edited my post with a link to the original but it never seemed to go in: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EPw3l7eMAabE7VIFRjdNI9tJYSdXCibfhECZ3nYe1tg/edit?usp=sharing it's here. The restriction for attachments is so small that it was only a thumbnail I posted. 

@Eldan985 Jacqueline Fine, the psychic, in Eldritch Horror gains clues when people gain conditions - she learns more as bad things happen! Is that what you mean? 

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Jacqueline Fine, yes. That's who I was thinking about. In Eldritch Horror, she also has the abiltiy to trade clues with another investigator anywhere on the world map. Seems back in Arkham Horror, Patrice Hathaway had an almost identical ability.

That said, are there enough situations where it matters who has the clues for that ability to be useful? I mean, there's all the "investigators in this area may spend clues to advance", but even then, it's usually just one or two moves to get there and I have a feeling situations where that is made difficult by a monster or similar are a bit too rare. 

 

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57 minutes ago, Eldan985 said:

Jacqueline Fine, yes. That's who I was thinking about. In Eldritch Horror, she also has the abiltiy to trade clues with another investigator anywhere on the world map. Seems back in Arkham Horror, Patrice Hathaway had an almost identical ability.

That said, are there enough situations where it matters who has the clues for that ability to be useful? I mean, there's all the "investigators in this area may spend clues to advance", but even then, it's usually just one or two moves to get there and I have a feeling situations where that is made difficult by a monster or similar are a bit too rare. 

 

I'm not sure, but it's something that could use a little experimentation and playtesting. Seekers also have a card that permits them to redraw if they drop a clue. 

In Arkham the board game, Patrice's ability let anyone use her clues at any point in the game. This may be more useful as an ability as you wouldn't need to 'trade' them prior to the investigators turn. Either way, thematically and mechanically she's got a lot of options and I'm curious how they're going to design her.

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1 hour ago, Eldan985 said:

Jacqueline Fine, yes. That's who I was thinking about. In Eldritch Horror, she also has the abiltiy to trade clues with another investigator anywhere on the world map. Seems back in Arkham Horror, Patrice Hathaway had an almost identical ability.

That said, are there enough situations where it matters who has the clues for that ability to be useful? I mean, there's all the "investigators in this area may spend clues to advance", but even then, it's usually just one or two moves to get there and I have a feeling situations where that is made difficult by a monster or similar are a bit too rare. 

 

Patrice Hathaway

  • Arkham Horror
    •  Inspiring - Any Phase: Patrice may allow the other investigators to spend her Clue tokens, even if they are not in the same location or world.
    • Ominous Dreams - Any Phase: Patrice gains 1 Clue token each time a gate opens. She also gains 5 Clue tokens when the 9th space on the Ancient One's doom track is filled.
  • Eldritch Horror
    • Action: You may spend 1 Clue and 1 Focus to improve 1 skill of your choice.
    • When you close a Gate during an Other World Encounter, gain 1 Clue and 1 Focus.

Jacqueline Fine

  • Arkham Horror
    • Unique Ability: Precognition - Mythos: Once per turn, when a mythos card other than "The Story Continues…" is drawn, Jacqueline may spend 2 Clue tokens to discard that mythos card without effect and draw another one instead. The second mythos card then takes effect.
  • Eldritch Horror
    • Action: You may trade any number of Clues with an investigator on any space.
    • Once per round, when another investigator gains a non-Common Condition, you may look at the back of that card and gain 1 Clue.
1 hour ago, Soakman said:

I'm not sure, but it's something that could use a little experimentation and playtesting. Seekers also have a card that permits them to redraw if they drop a clue. 

In Arkham the board game, Patrice's ability let anyone use her clues at any point in the game. This may be more useful as an ability as you wouldn't need to 'trade' them prior to the investigators turn. Either way, thematically and mechanically she's got a lot of options and I'm curious how they're going to design her.

What card is that?

***

And my favorite,

Diana Stanley

  • Arkham Horror
    • Unique Ability: Trusted Sister - Any Phase: You cannot lose your Silver Twilight Lodge Membership.
    • Dark Insight - Any Phase: Gain 1 Sanity or 1 Stamina each time a doom token is added to the Ancient One's doom track.  In addition, gain 1 Clue token each time the terror level rises.
  • Eldritch Horror
    • Action: If there is a Cultist Monster on your space, discard all Monsters on your space or move the Cultist Monster to any other space.
    • Reduce the horror of Monsters you encounter to 1.
  • Mansions of Madness 2e
    • When you would suffer 2 or more Horror, suffer 1 fewer instead.
  • Elder Sign
    • Each time Diana defeats a monster she gains 1 clue token at the end of the Resolution phase.

I would expect her signature card to be relating to the Silver Twilight Lodge.  Maybe something that helps on Parlay actions or that helps evade Humanoid enemies.

Her signature weakness may be something like Debt to the Lodge, which causes her to discard 1 of her controlled (in-play) allies or take 3 Horror.

Her ability may be something that reduces the non-direct horror she receives by 1, to a minimum of 1.

For deckbuilding, I feel she has claim to all classes except Guardian, so I'm really unsure.  Probably something involving Ritual traited cards.

 

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1 hour ago, CSerpent said:

02302.jpg

 

Being primarily a true soloist myself, I wouldn't want to see an investigator whose ability is only useful on a team.

03150.png04154.jpg

^ These cards were also along the lines I was thinking of, but particularly quick study.

Understandable about the solo player thing, but we already have some characters that are primarily support oriented like Carolyn and Minh. Yes, they can be played in solo, but so could Patrice depending on her deck build or ability. You could also do something with her like as an action move a clue at a connecting location to her current location or from her current location to a connecting location. 

 

EDIT: Diana is my partner's favorite investigator, so I am also pretty excited to see what they do with her too.

Edited by Soakman

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2 hours ago, Eldan985 said:

Diana Stanley... something along the lines of "Cultist enemies at your location gain aloof"? Or humanoid enemy, if cultist is too specific. 

You generally want to engage cultists, though, since they usually advance the agenda or otherwise harass the investigators just by existing.

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