Jump to content
Jarval

First Order conversion kit article

Recommended Posts

48 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

Wow, Stridan really supercharges all of these crew cards..

To those commenting on how expensive the Batwing is potentially going to be, remember that the SF is now considerably cheaper (Davy has said this multiple times) with its title being an optional gunner now. You may have more options for decent wingmates along side the Upsilon with those. 

Also who needs to move the Batwing (with that crumby dial) when Stridan's behind the wheel? 

The SF seems impossible to price to be honest. As a 2 dice attack with 6 health it is in Bomber pricing range. The shield go hull ratio obviously adds value and the fact that it has a rotating arc also adds value. 

Without the SF gunner it seems like a 2 front and 2 rear ship but you can only fire your missiles rom mobile which means you need to flip your turret arc forward to shoot forward. 

I think it will 34pts so you can’t have 6 even though it is considerably weaker than the Alpha and Planetary Sentinel. The lowest I is probably 3. 

So to keep it in line with an X-Wing will the gunner be 7pts only? Hard to believe. That also means that Quickdraw, assuming she exists and is still I6 is 45pts base to price her the same as Wedge. That is 3 lower than Miranda though and the bonus attack ability probably puts her ahead of Wedge. Maybe 47pts. Less if the gunner costs more. 

I do feel like Backdraft will be the real winner as they can ignore all gunners and just go for rear arc fighting at a pretty low cost. Maybe 38-40 for I4 or 42-43 for I5 (we didn’t see spoils for this yet right?)

This is all massive speculation. 

Maybe you can bring Upsilon Hux and 3 cheap SFs with Missiles so you can have full mod 3 Attack on the opening. But the missiles probably won’t be much cheaper than the SF gunner. 

Hmmm. Yeah it will be interesting to see how they price all of this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

The SF seems impossible to price to be honest. As a 2 dice attack with 6 health it is in Bomber pricing range. The shield go hull ratio obviously adds value and the fact that it has a rotating arc also adds value. 

Without the SF gunner it seems like a 2 front and 2 rear ship but you can only fire your missiles rom mobile which means you need to flip your turret arc forward to shoot forward. 

I think it will 34pts so you can’t have 6 even though it is considerably weaker than the Alpha and Planetary Sentinel. The lowest I is probably 3. 

So to keep it in line with an X-Wing will the gunner be 7pts only? Hard to believe. That also means that Quickdraw, assuming she exists and is still I6 is 45pts base to price her the same as Wedge. That is 3 lower than Miranda though and the bonus attack ability probably puts her ahead of Wedge. Maybe 47pts. Less if the gunner costs more. 

I do feel like Backdraft will be the real winner as they can ignore all gunners and just go for rear arc fighting at a pretty low cost. Maybe 38-40 for I4 or 42-43 for I5 (we didn’t see spoils for this yet right?)

This is all massive speculation. 

Maybe you can bring Upsilon Hux and 3 cheap SFs with Missiles so you can have full mod 3 Attack on the opening. But the missiles probably won’t be much cheaper than the SF gunner. 

Hmmm. Yeah it will be interesting to see how they price all of this. 

Yeah I think high 30's is a solid guess for a base SF. I think the TIE bombers are a little cheap so I would take that into account for the SF, plus what you said about shielding etc.

The SF gunner I think will be fairly cheap, but not so cheap that its an auto include. Maybe 5pts? Then say its 38pts base, adding a 5pt SF gunner for the extra die out the front brings it in line with an X-wing at 43pts. At 42/44pts with either the gunner or missile, that would leave roughly 70pts for an Upsilon. That seems like a fairly safe estimation but we will see.

I agree in thinking these will be higher initiative generics since they're supposed to be elite units.

Yeah I think Dormitz/Hux alpha strike list will be a thing. I imagine the First Order will bring about a new mag pulse rocket type thing to couple with the SF.

Edited by BVRCH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

A 4 dice primary ship that's also trying to be a crew focused support ship just doesn't sound like it'll work to me. 

Gamewise we'll see how it turns out.  Thematically, it's precisely what I would expect from the First Order, so kudos for that!

5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

That's odd, 8 are 6s and 9s are 5s? Well we all know that 1.0 names and abilities don't have to match their 2.0 counterparts (i.e. Wampa).

Nerfin 9s to 5s 
What a way to make a sequel
Once the buffs arrive
Former 8s will have no equal

They will mix things up
Or "balance" as they call it
And we'll still demand
They put our money in their wallet!

Edited by JJ48

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I kind of expect the final price on a Special Forces with a gunner to be about 44 points.  That's the same as a Grey Squadron Y-Wing with Veteran Turret Gunner and Dorsal Turret, a 2-dice double-tapping ship with rough the same toughness (X-Wing to B-Wing is about the same price, 2 green 6 HP compared to 1 green 8 HP).  It's also the same as a TIE Phantom, which is the Imperial's closest ship to an X-Wing, with it's own sweet trick.

So how much will the Special Forces Gunner cost?  Eight points, same as Veteran Turret?  They're pretty similar, but SFG gets a bonus, while restricted to one ship.  That'd put the cost of a Special Forces TIE at about 36 points, 4 points more than a naked Y-Wing.  Hrm.  Is 36 right, presuming 2/2/3/3?  Dial is better than a Y-Wing by a tiny bit.  About the same toughness.  Barrel roll is white, and rotate is linked.  That's worth 2-points at least.

But then again, Veteran Turret Gunner allows a same-direction double-tap, and that seems like the kind of thing they'd want to have be more expensive than the 3-dice shot.  So maybe VTG at 6 points?  That's probably enough of a discount to make it default.  Then a 44-point SF with Gunner costs 38 without filling the slot, and that starts to feel expensive to me.  Maybe these things will be cheaper with the gunner than I'd have thought.

I keep thinking that 34-36 points is the right price for them, and 6 points is the right price for the gunner.  That said, I think having with the gunner is a thing they won't allow (they didn't let in 5 X-Wings, only Kihraxz, which have no tricks and a weak shield/hull ratio).

//

As to the Upsilon not being cheap, I just can't imagine a 4-dice ship coming in at less than 55 points, maybe not less than 60.  Better actions than a Lambda are worth about 4 points (two each for Target Lock and white Jam), two more shields are worth about 8 points.  So that's 12 points, and you'd be up to (43+12)=55 before factoring in the better dial and the 4-dice primary weapon.  It doesn't have a rear arc like a Lambda, and it can't spin around like a U-Wing, but the raw numbers on it are just so much higher.  At 58 points, you could fit three generics with Advanced Sensors, and we know they priced Lambdas and U-Wings one point more than a 4-ship list with Advanced Sensors.  I dunno.  4 red dice mean that a thing has to be kind of expensive. YV-666 stayed at 58(29) points, so it really doesn't seem out of place for this to stay at 60.  I think that's just going to be too expensive to put up with that trash dial on a ship with just a front arc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

So I kind of expect the final price on a Special Forces with a gunner to be about 44 points.  That's the same as a Grey Squadron Y-Wing with Veteran Turret Gunner and Dorsal Turret, a 2-dice double-tapping ship with rough the same toughness (X-Wing to B-Wing is about the same price, 2 green 6 HP compared to 1 green 8 HP).  It's also the same as a TIE Phantom, which is the Imperial's closest ship to an X-Wing, with it's own sweet trick.

So how much will the Special Forces Gunner cost?  Eight points, same as Veteran Turret?  They're pretty similar, but SFG gets a bonus, while restricted to one ship.  That'd put the cost of a Special Forces TIE at about 36 points, 4 points more than a naked Y-Wing.  Hrm.  Is 36 right, presuming 2/2/3/3?  Dial is better than a Y-Wing by a tiny bit.  About the same toughness.  Barrel roll is white, and rotate is linked.  That's worth 2-points at least.

But then again, Veteran Turret Gunner allows a same-direction double-tap, and that seems like the kind of thing they'd want to have be more expensive than the 3-dice shot.  So maybe VTG at 6 points?  That's probably enough of a discount to make it default.  Then a 44-point SF with Gunner costs 38 without filling the slot, and that starts to feel expensive to me.  Maybe these things will be cheaper with the gunner than I'd have thought.

I keep thinking that 34-36 points is the right price for them, and 6 points is the right price for the gunner.  That said, I think having with the gunner is a thing they won't allow (they didn't let in 5 X-Wings, only Kihraxz, which have no tricks and a weak shield/hull ratio).

//

As to the Upsilon not being cheap, I just can't imagine a 4-dice ship coming in at less than 55 points, maybe not less than 60.  Better actions than a Lambda are worth about 4 points (two each for Target Lock and white Jam), two more shields are worth about 8 points.  So that's 12 points, and you'd be up to (43+12)=55 before factoring in the better dial and the 4-dice primary weapon.  It doesn't have a rear arc like a Lambda, and it can't spin around like a U-Wing, but the raw numbers on it are just so much higher.  At 58 points, you could fit three generics with Advanced Sensors, and we know they priced Lambdas and U-Wings one point more than a 4-ship list with Advanced Sensors.  I dunno.  4 red dice mean that a thing has to be kind of expensive. YV-666 stayed at 58(29) points, so it really doesn't seem out of place for this to stay at 60.  I think that's just going to be too expensive to put up with that trash dial on a ship with just a front arc.

Well Dorsal Turret is a full arc not a partial one. 

I just can’t see how the SF is much more expensive than an X-Wing though they did say the dial was better. Yes it can become more costly with efficiency upgrades like FCS but that should be reflected in the base cost. 

I-value matters but the base X-Wing is I2 and 41pts. The SF could be the same at 42pts. So gunner at 8 and ship at 34. You can neither spam 6, nor 5, but you could spam 5 with Missiles. 

It would be cool if the SF was 10 and the base was 32 so you could run 5 with the VTG. Note that with the VTG you can double tap forwards with two 2-die attacks. Great? Maybe only on the Talent versions with Juke. 

It would be nice to make a choice between gunners so it’s not all SFG but that is where pricing gets hard. 10pts for an upgrade from 2 to 3 dice does seem pretty  standard though. 32 is more than the bomber and Aggressor which is shares a similar statline with. The bomber should maybe go up 1 and the Agressor down 1-2, but that really just changes which ships are in the Barrage swarm. 

32 means you can spam 6 though and even as a 2 Attack ship I can’t see that happening because they have the possible rear arc. That really means 34 is the minimum. But higher than that feels like a stretch. 

I think the main reason the article is kinda meh is because it is about crew when they have one crew carrier. 

The FO, SF and Silencer are what I’m more interested in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know a lot of people seem to think Phasma is useless, but she's one of the only ways to reliably induce stress on your opponent in 2.0. In 1.0 there were tons of other options that were better than Mara Jade, but so far, none of them have survived the transition to 2.0.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Freeptop said:

I know a lot of people seem to think Phasma is useless, but she's one of the only ways to reliably induce stress on your opponent in 2.0. In 1.0 there were tons of other options that were better than Mara Jade, but so far, none of them have survived the transition to 2.0.

 

Yep, something for them to consider: Major Stridan with Ion Cannon + Phasma and Thanisson. A 4 dice Ion Cannon that at range 2-3 can Ionize + Stress lock a target down. At range 1 that ups to a 5 dice ion cannon with the ability to stress lock... You ain't getting away from that until you kill it.

 

Edit: Misread. Stridan can coordinate out to range 3 or do other boosts to their friendlies depending on the upgrade... 

Edited by Hiemfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Yep, something for them to consider: Major Stridan with Ion Cannon + Phasma and Thanisson. A 4 dice Ion Cannon that at range 2-3 can Ionize + Stress lock a target down. At range 1 that ups to a 5 dice ion cannon with the ability to stress lock... You ain't getting away from that until you kill it.

Or more likely, it kills you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm kinda disappointed about the upsilon dial. It sucks.

With that dial You can't expect to fire more than 2 or 3 times a game (if you are lucky)

I do not understand why they do not change it.

It was the upsilon problem in 1.0 and they decided to ignore it.

Maybe ffg thought:

Mumble mumble.... how do e fix the upsilon.... ALL the other shuttles get benefit and usefullness giving them k turns or rear firing arc and we know it' s the right way to go but maybe upsilon it's a different ship... let's try another way! let's add a CANNON slot that no one will use! Let's boost the only unusefull thing of this ship! Great idea genius! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Manolox said:

I'm kinda disappointed about the upsilon dial. It sucks.

It does and it doesn't. It's still massively better than the lambda dial. Yes - that ship now has a popgun stuck to it's backside - but the upsilon has white turns. A 4-dice ion cannon is tasty, too - or (if you can boresight someone) a 5 dice heavy laser cannon of "I'm sure I was inside a starship a second ago".

A big question will be if any tech appears to help mitigate the effects of stress (pattern analyser, primed thrusters, stuff like that), because between Hux, Thannisson, and Upsilon dials, you're going to be dealing with stress a lot.

More significantly, the potential to have Snoke and Kylo together would require an Upsilon to have 3 crew slots. Meaning it should be able to be quite a capable platform if not acting as the force user's ride.

The free tokens from hyperspace tracking coming at the end of setup is nice - it means low initiative pilots can still get them. However, because only large ships can take it, it does mean you can't easily deploy ships at the end of Dormitz' 'chain' unless they're high initiative themselves - so she'll be most useful with Kylo Ren, Blackout and Midnight, I guess. Or else reprise the 'batwing squadron' of Dormitz and two hyper-jumping generic upsilons. Could be rather interesting, in fact - setting up with Dormitz' assistance means they get whatever angle you like and with collision detectors they can really come at you from unexpected angles on the first turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

A big question will be if any tech appears to help mitigate the effects of stress (pattern analyser, primed thrusters, stuff like that), because between Hux, Thannisson, and Upsilon dials, you're going to be dealing with stress a lot

There is "Muse" aka Epsilon Leader, while they already nerfed its ability to only effect one ships I guess it was done specifically to not be too powerful when combined with Hux.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, mcgreag said:

There is "Muse" aka Epsilon Leader, while they already nerfed its ability to only effect one ships I guess it was done specifically to not be too powerful when combined with Hux.

Seeing Hux's new rules, if paired with Epsilon Leader's old ability it'd be a bit ridiculous. Hux no longer being locked to focus is potent enough (although I suspect TIE/fo will kind of miss his sawn-off-autoblaster ability).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, we know the number of dials you get for each ship in the First Order Conversion Kit (http://xwing-miniatures-second-edition.wikia.com/wiki/First_Order_Conversion_Kit), which gives us some insight into how much things might cost.  Specifically, you get dials for the following:

  • 7 – TIE/fo Fighters
  • 5 – TIE/sf Fighters
  • 3 – TIE/vn Silencers
  • 3 – Upsilon-class Shuttles

Which should give a good baseline for the most any of the the lowest Inititative generic pilots for each ship should cost.

  • TIE/fo - 28 points (to get 7 in a list)
  • TIE/sf - 40 points (to get 5 in a list)
  • Silencer and Upsilon - 66 points (to get 3 in a list)

And there's a decent chance that any of those generics will be at least a few points cheaper to allow for some upgrades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I blame you entirely for this. 

The most balanced crew upgrade, as everything should be. 

2RDoIeb.png

 

You were so close.

"If you do, snap your fingers.  Then, roll one attack die for each ship.  On a hit or crit result, destroy that ship "

Edited by gamblertuba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jarval said:
  • 7 – TIE/fo Fighters
  • 5 – TIE/sf Fighters
  • 3 – TIE/vn Silencers
  • 3 – Upsilon-class Shuttles 

The TIE/fo is a lot cheaper if that's the case. I guess you're relying on the TIE/fo itself without Sloane or Howlrunner, but it's a heck of an upgrade over the TIE/ln if you're able to field 7 of the lil' buggers.

TIE/sf - yeah I can see 5, if they're essentially a modified TIE bomber without the spec forces gunner.

3 generic TIE/vn and Y are basically unchanged, so not surprising.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The TIE/fo is a lot cheaper if that's the case. I guess you're relying on the TIE/fo itself without Sloane or Howlrunner, but it's a heck of an upgrade over the TIE/ln if you're able to field 7 of the lil' buggers.

TIE/sf - yeah I can see 5, if they're essentially a modified TIE bomber without the spec forces gunner.

3 generic TIE/vn and Y are basically unchanged, so not surprising.

The /fo was 15 points in 1.0. Since the TIE/ln got half a point cheaper, it seems reasonable for the First Order version to get a bit of a discount too. It's not like the generics saw all that much table time in 1.0 anyway. Honestly, can hardly remember seeing any of them at all besides Omega Leader, except when I stubbornly field Epsilon Ace and Omega Ace, because, well, somebody had to take responsibility. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Okapi said:

The /fo was 15 points in 1.0. Since the TIE/ln got half a point cheaper, it seems reasonable for the First Order version to get a bit of a discount too. It's not like the generics saw all that much table time in 1.0 anyway. Honestly, can hardly remember seeing any of them at all besides Omega Leader, except when I stubbornly field Epsilon Ace and Omega Ace, because, well, somebody had to take responsibility. :P

One of my favourite squads - just because it was so much fun to use - was Epsilon Leader, Epsilon Ace, and 4 x Epsilon Squadron Pilots. It often caught people off guard just how good the little things are, especially hugged up around 'Leader' (albeit that's justifiably not a thing anymore... binning off 5 stress a turn including your own was just terrifying, and back-to-back segnor's loops is just unfair.)

Edited by Magnus Grendel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

One of my favourite squads - just because it was so much fun to use - was Epsilon Leader, Epsilon Ace, and 4 x Epsilon Squadron Pilots. It often caught people off guard just how good the little things are, especially hugged up around 'Leader' (albeit that's justifiably not a thing anymore... binning off 5 stress a turn including your own was just terrifying, and back-to-back segnor's loops is just unfair.)

A friend of mine was running this a lot in the last few months of 1st Edition, and it was surprisingly legit.  Advanced Optics really transformed how much of a threat the FOs were.

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Push the Limit (3)
Advanced Sensors (3)
Advanced Optics (2)
Autothrusters (2)
First Order Vanguard (2)

Epsilon Squadron Pilot (15)
Advanced Optics (2)

Epsilon Squadron Pilot (15)
Advanced Optics (2)

Epsilon Squadron Pilot (15)
Advanced Optics (2)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I figure it is easier to dust your opponent than their ships. 

Yes, but if you dust your opponent's ships, they have to clean up the dust, if you dust your opponent, you have to clean up the dust.

And pack away their stuff.

It's a minimum-effort-required thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...