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'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Negative Buzz Amplified by Russian Trolls, Study Finds

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46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It‘s the culmination of his character arc, and that‘s why the examples with Gandalf or Obiwan fall flat.

Were we even watching the same movie?  In TFA, Finn heads to Starkiller Base to rescue Rey.  In TLJ, he wants to leave the fleet, in part, to protect Rey.  He returns to disable the tracking system and protect the fleet.  Why should his character suddenly do a complete 180 and switch to hatred as a motivation?  Sure, he hates the First Order; who doesn't?  I'm sure Holdo hated the FO too.  But to say that hatred is his driving motivation there simply doesn't work.

Also, as stated before, if Finn's motivation were hatred, then his plan makes absolutely no sense.  He hates the FO so he's going to do a suicide attack on a piece of artillery and...set their attack schedule back a a tiny bit?  At that point in the movie, time is far more precious to the Resistance than to the First Order.  Buying time for the Resistance makes sense; hindering the First Order doesn't.  Again, if he were attacking, say, Phasma, hatred might be a believable motivator.  Finn seeing her and thinking, "I will kill her if it's the last thing I do," would make perfect sense.  But to go after a single piece of equipment with incredibly situational usefulness, which doesn't seem like it's likely to play much more of a role in the FO's larger plans?  It staggers belief for hatred to drive him thus.

As for Finn not listening to Poe's order, that was reckless and foolish, but understandably so, especially if--whether right or wrong--he thinks Poe is incorrect about it being too late.  If he's doing it to protect the Resistance, it makes a certain amount of sense (especially since it's just a continuation of what they were sent out to do in the first place).  If he's doing it out of hatred, it's just imbecility.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

if both options were truly equal (which I think they are not), and one is just the better movie, why then not take that interpretation anyway?

I agree that both options are not equal, but if they were, I would still choose the "selfless sacrifice" reading for precisely this reason.  I can forgive a lot of things in movies.  I can forgive a character contradicting a previously established point.  I can forgive a character letting his emotions cloud his judgment to a certain extent.  I cannot forgive turning a character of seemingly normal intelligence into a moron simply due to poor writing.  I am simply taking the interpretation I find more palatable, based on everything I've seen in the movies up to this point.

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35 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

We are actually Russian bots trying a different technique to divide the fanbase...

Interesting discussions that analyze a movie in-depth divide fanbases?

I disagree with you guys and think you're wrong, but I certainly don't hate you.  If I felt hatred for every single person who disagreed with me, why, there would be nary a superlaser siege cannon left on this entire planet!

Edited by JJ48

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1 minute ago, JJ48 said:

Were we even watching the same movie?  In TFA, Finn heads to Starkiller Base to rescue Rey.  In TLJ, he wants to leave the fleet, in part, to protect Rey.  He returns to disable the tracking system and protect the fleet.  Why should his character suddenly do a complete 180 and switch to hatred as a motivation?  Sure, he hates the First Order; who doesn't?  I'm sure Holdo hated the FO too.  But to say that hatred is his driving motivation there simply doesn't work.

I didn't say that hatred becomes his driving motivation overall. I say that - in this scene - he releases all the pent up hatred of all his life in general, and of the past few days since the village in Jakku in particular.

The flip is also not happening in this scene. The flip is building up over the Canto Bight arc, which is also btw why that arc is not pointless. He has a premature culmination when he says "Rebel Scum", but, and here the movie is again more complex than movies in general are, but his arc doesn't stop there. It shows us how he goes too far, from running away to fighting. And that conflict culminates in his pointless sacrifice which is based in his hatred, and that is when Rose helps him to the actual fulfillment of his character arc when his motivation is corrected and he now learns and realizes that he should not fight with motivation based in hatred but in love.

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5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Interesting discussions that analyze a movie in-depth divide fanbases?

When there is actual reasonable discussions going on, hopefully not. When the extremes of both sides continually label the other side and refuse to accept other opinions, that’s when division happens.

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7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I didn't say that hatred becomes his driving motivation overall. I say that - in this scene - he releases all the pent up hatred of all his life in general, and of the past few days since the village in Jakku in particular.

The flip is also not happening in this scene. The flip is building up over the Canto Bight arc, which is also btw why that arc is not pointless. He has a premature culmination when he says "Rebel Scum", but, and here the movie is again more complex than movies in general are, but his arc doesn't stop there. It shows us how he goes too far, from running away to fighting. And that conflict culminates in his pointless sacrifice which is based in his hatred, and that is when Rose helps him to the actual fulfillment of his character arc when his motivation is corrected and he now learns and realizes that he should not fight with motivation based in hatred but in love.

Well, I still don't see it, but I think it's clear at this point that our differences stem from fundamentally different views of the entire film, so we could probably talk forever without actually getting anywhere.  For now, though, let's return to matryoshka nesting trolls, or whatever this topic was originally about.

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One last thing regarding Finn’s resolve before moving on. The anger and hate is a culmination of all the recent events. The Jakku Massacre, the destruction of the Republic, of Maz Castle, the destruction of the Resistance fleet, the slavery story from Rose, all his past as a soldier for them... 

When the plan to destroy the cannon fail, it’s easy to understand (from my point of view at least) that Finn gets really angry. The First Order always seems to win. He gets a « **** no! Not this time, you’re not gonna win this time! ». Blinded by his anger, he focus too much on the current objective, destroy the cannon, and lose the bigger picture, that it is already too late. But he’s so tired to see the FO always win, so focused on making the FO lose this time that he’s willing to sacrifice himself.

You see it as being stupid, I see it as being blinded by anger, hatred. It can makes us do stupid thing. And that’s a theme from The Last Jedi: our heroes are flawed, they’re not always making the good decision and there is real consequences when you don’t look at the bigger picture and focus too much on the little victory you want to pull.

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47 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Interesting discussions that analyze a movie in-depth divide fanbases?

I disagree with you guys and think you're wrong, but I certainly don't hate you.  If I felt hatred for every single person who disagreed with me, why, there would be nary a superlaser siege cannon left on this entire planet!

Well, I didn’t say it was an effective technique... but since they’re onto us on the hate wagon....

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45 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

The flip is also not happening in this scene. The flip is building up over the Canto Bight arc, which is also btw why that arc is not pointless.

I’m probably one of the few that actually like the Canto Bight arc. It’s such an important part in Finn’s evolution with Rose being his good consciousness and DJ his bad. Join the fight or leave?

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1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

I’m probably one of the few that actually like the Canto Bight arc. It’s such an important part in Finn’s evolution with Rose being his good consciousness and DJ his bad. Join the fight or leave?

I like what they were trying to do with the arc, but I don’t feel the execution worked as well. There are a couple of conveniences I’d change, but the overall purpose I think is sound.

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21 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I like what they were trying to do with the arc, but I don’t feel the execution worked as well. There are a couple of conveniences I’d change, but the overall purpose I think is sound.

It's definetly not perfect (see my comment earlier about BB8 coin shooter...) and there would be little things I would change too, but it's nowhere near the train wreck or pointlessness that some people makes it sound to be.

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I don't think one should forget the impact of Finn's capture, inadvertent role in the discovery of the Resistance shuttles, and near execution on his mindset when he's on Crait and driving that speeder. These are events that can and should change character attitudes and motivations. It is up to other events to revert those changes or create new motivations - which is precisely what Rose saving him does.

And it's clearly a suicide run that wouldn't have worked. I'm surprised that so many seem to think he had a chance, given that we have a shot of his ship and guns melting like hot butter. My theory is that everyone has become so used to that absurd moment in Independence Day and thinks that how it works.

 

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41 minutes ago, redxavier said:

And it's clearly a suicide run that wouldn't have worked. I'm surprised that so many seem to think he had a chance, given that we have a shot of his ship and guns melting like hot butter. My theory is that everyone has become so used to that absurd moment in Independence Day and thinks that how it works.

I've never seen Independence Day, but it doesn't sound completely unreasonable.  The craft doesn't have to make it in intact, so long as enough of it or its melted ruin makes it in going fast enough to mess things up.  Furthermore, whether he had a chance or not is less important than Finn thinking he had a chance, even if he was wrong.  Speaking of heat, though,

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

By the way, Finn quite literally "sees red", a common expression for someone who becomes unreasonable due to anger or hatred

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Red can also indicate fire or danger.  It's red to signify a red beam is burning him up.

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This whole discussion rather begs the question, why is Finn even there in the first place?  "We need to buy some more time, so send out speeders piloted by our pilots, a mechanic, and an ex-janitor."  Granted, the Resistance did just lose many of its best leaders, so...

(Also, is there any particular reason that dragging a bit of your ship through salt would make it more stable?)

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1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Red can also indicate fire or danger.  It's red to signify a red beam is burning him up.

Sure, but the ‚coincidences’ are piling up. It sounds likely to me that the artistic choices in a 1 billion dollar movie are intentional and not just byproducts.

49 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

and an ex-janitor.

Btw, that‘s point that bugs me beyond reason. He‘s not a janitor. He, like probably every soldier ever, had at some point latrine duty. For Finn that was while on Starkiller base. And that‘s not interpretation or opinion, that‘s also mentioned in the YA novel about him. He‘s a trained soldier with one combat mission. Who also had latrine duty at some point.

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

#tell you what, these Russian bots are definitely putting the effort in...

Really? You have the gall to whine about not being taken serious in criticism, that "a great deal of the "defence" for The Last Jedi focuses on attacking people who express their criticisms, not addressing their concerns. The remainder simply pretend the complaints don't exist." and post a video like that? You just reached a new low.

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1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

#tell you what, these Russian bots are definitely putting the effort in...

 

Interesting that you are willing to push your narrative that you just want your concerns addressed, yet when confronted about your double standards, you run away. Come on, man. I use to think you were a chill, alright guy. 

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If I was to resume this thread, FTS Gecko wants his complaints taken seriously, don't want TLJ apologist to make stupid generalisation about people hating TLJ, then goes on to make generalisations about TLJ apologist not addressing the complaints and  people needing to turn off their brain to enjoy the movie, then we have a 2 page of in-depth discussion about the movie addressing a complaint, then out of nowhere he post a video about 'Stupidest Things Said Defending The Last Jedi'... am I missing something?

I'll let everyone make their own judgment on the character.

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2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

This whole discussion rather begs the question, why is Finn even there in the first place?  "We need to buy some more time, so send out speeders piloted by our pilots, a mechanic, and an ex-janitor."  Granted, the Resistance did just lose many of its best leaders, so...

(Also, is there any particular reason that dragging a bit of your ship through salt would make it more stable?)

Well, since the hangar blew up in the Raddus, I suppose there is not a lot of pilots left in the Resistance. And since it's his idea to go out and blow out the cannon, I think it makes sense that he join the offensive. I assume that Rose probably volunteered.

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure, but the ‚coincidences’ are piling up. It sounds likely to me that the artistic choices in a 1 billion dollar movie are intentional and not just byproducts.

The thing is, there are other, perfectly legitimate reasons for the red coloring, both from an immediate story setting (the red laser) and from a symbolic standpoint (heat, burning, death).  A red wash doesn't have to mean anger and hatred any more than it meant that Yoda was angry and full of hate when he talked about there being another hope.

 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Btw, that‘s point that bugs me beyond reason. He‘s not a janitor. He, like probably every soldier ever, had at some point latrine duty. For Finn that was while on Starkiller base. And that‘s not interpretation or opinion, that‘s also mentioned in the YA novel about him. He‘s a trained soldier with one combat mission. Who also had latrine duty at some point.

Finn said his job while at Starkiller Base was sanitation.  That makes it sound like it's more of his actual title, the equivalent of if he had said his job were radio operator or quartermaster.  I'm sure he had combat training, like all soldiers, but that doesn't change the fact that he was, for all intents and purposes, a janitor until he got moved to an actual combat unit.  (Though, even having combat training doesn't really qualify him for piloting a speeder any more than being a janitor does.)

As an example, I'm sure my grandfather had his share of chores to do while serving in the navy.  He still said his job was medic, rather than kitchen detail or deck-mopping.

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9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

A red wash doesn't have to mean anger and hatred any more than it meant that Yoda was angry and full of hate when he talked about there being another hope.

That‘s a good find. But then again, as far as I know GL wasn‘t sure yet at the moment of this Yoda scene who this other was going to be?

9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Finn said his job while at Starkiller Base was sanitation.  That makes it sound like it's more of his actual title, the equivalent of if he had said his job were radio operator or quartermaster.  I'm sure he had combat training, like all soldiers, but that doesn't change the fact that he was, for all intents and purposes, a janitor until he got moved to an actual combat unit.  (Though, even having combat training doesn't really qualify him for piloting a speeder any more than being a janitor does.)

As an example, I'm sure my grandfather had his share of chores to do while serving in the navy.  He still said his job was medic, rather than kitchen detail or deck-mopping.

The unit I‘m in always forms temporary sanitation groups. The people in that group are tank drivers, cannoneers, radio operators or official sanitation (they would be the only ones if we had enough).

And if you ask anyone of them what they are doing, they will give you a different answer depending on the question and context of the question.

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