Jump to content
Ronu

Cavern Angel Aces better than the Rest of the X-wing Pilots

Recommended Posts

Okay so as an Imperial Player I haven’t converted anything to 2.0 Rebel wise. I did pick up a couple of Saw’s Renegades and just for options grabbed an X-Wing expac plus what I got in the Core set.

I tried a couple out just to get an idea of them and their abilities on the board as most everyone in my local store plays Rebels and I’ll eventually see them. 

So the Aces on the Cavern Angel side just looked superior in the few matches I’ve had. Granted playstyle and skill floor of my opponents may be helping to shape things but I’m having a hard time not seeing it any other way.

if your curious about builds here is what I have settled on for Kullbee Spedaro and Leevan Tenza.

T-65 X-wing - •Leevan Tenza - 56
    •Leevan Tenza - Rebel Alliance Defector (46)
        Debris Gambit (2)
        R4 Astromech (2)
        Shield Upgrade (6)
        Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - •Kullbee Sperado - 59
    •Kullbee Sperado - Enigmatic Gunslinger (48)
        Daredevil (3)
        R4 Astromech (2)
        Shield Upgrade (6)
        Servomotor S-foils (Closed) (0)

Kullbee flies more like a TIE Intercepter. He was able to Flank a Vader list with a Raider and Lambda Support Shuttle and working with Leevan they almost single handedly cleaned all 3 out. The Daredevil makes him extremely flexible especially in the Asteroid/Debris field, as well as unpredictable on where his Arc is going to point. The R4 allows him the options to clear stress, take a focus link to a Boost and keep his guns at maximum. I was also pleasantly surprised how much that’s shield upgrade meant to the ship. 

Leevan with the Debris Gambit also felt like a cheaper Luke. Being able to reposition then take an Evade and not stress just meant more options when it was needed and kept my opponent a bit off balance having to wonder when/if a Talon Roll was coming. Oddly enough he was also a bit of a flanker rather than acting as a blocker. He ends up either being ignored because no offensive mods or at least for me was ending up in spots my opponent was trying to avoid to prevent a block or just good shooting spots with his reposition. His ability to tank a bit each turn also has seemed a deterrent to attack him and yes it’s a bit better than Luke as he can mod any dice vs Luke needing a Focus to use his mods.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest, I'm not really sure where you're coming from with either of those. There's nothing major about either of these ships that can't be done by the Rebel aces.

Kullbee doesn't get you anymore action economy. All his ability really boils down to is the ability to shoot 3 dice after a boost. Which is nice, don't get me wrong. but it's actually not all that much more effective than Wedge's ability. Throwing 3 dice with a focus against 2 greens with a focus gives you 1.07 expected hits. Wedge throwing 2 dice with his ability reducing their greens to 1 (and both focused) gives you 0.91. Yes, Kullbee is better, and yes variance means that he can land a three hit roll where Wedge can't. But it's not better by a huge amount. Wedge's ability is also on all the time, meaning when he doesn't need to close servos and boost, he's better. 

Oh, and by the way I think the jury's still out on whether the X-Wing can equip Daredevil. There's no specific rules or FAQ on equipping upgrades with requirements that are dependent on flippable cards for 2e, but in 1e it wasn't allowed. The app allows it, I believe, but the app's been wrong about a bunch of stuff. 

Regardless, if Kullbee can equip it, then Wedge can too. Wedge has the same ability to clear stress as Kullbee, the same linked actions and he's better initiative. He's also only 4 points more expensive for 2 initiative points. 

If you're seeing success with Kullbee, it's almost certainly to do with how his ability makes you fly him, but I don't see anything to stop you from flying Wedge in the same way, where he's almost as effective on offence but way more flexible in terms of arc dodging and Init killing. 

I think much the same is true of Leevan vs Luke. 

Look at what you're giving up to get that ability on him - you're sacrificing any attacking dice mods. His ability has him focused on reposition actions, but he's only IN 3. He has no better access to those actions than Luke, who is IN 5 and therefore a more capable arc dodger - you don't need evade tokens if you're not being shot at at all. Luke, meanwhile, is basically only ever an action away from full attacking dice mods thanks to his Force tokens. Force tokens that you don't need to save for defence because Luke gets them automatically. 

And yes, one evade token is better than one focus token if you're defending once. But Luke's ability triggers every time he's attacked in a round. Luke is simply better vs multiple opponents, and one and one he's better at arc dodging all together. Maybe also worth mentioning here that you can put Debris Gambit on Wedge and get basically the same result (white evade by a rock) as Leevan. Sure, you don't get a reposition along with it, but at I6 I'd argue you don't need it as much. You can see whether or not the reposition will dodge arc and take it if so, or evade if not. Same net result as Leevan, the only difference is you can't reposition to get a shot you wouldn't otherwise have that also leaves you in their line of fire and take an evade to help with that.... But then you consider that Wedge shoots first, hits like a truck and has a much better chance to take the ship off the board before they even get chance to return fire. 

Put Supernatural on Luke and he's arguably a better Kullbee than Kullbee, thanks to being able to start a round with foils closed, boost with Super, open move and target lock for full mods with no stress. 

The big selling point for the two Renegade aces is definitely cost. Leevan is pretty cheap for what he offers, but to me that makes him much better at supplementing a list rather than being one of the main features. And Luke is obviously really expensive. While I agree with the general consensus that he's the best X-Wing pilot by far, it does require him to be the focus of list building. And given where we seem to be in terms of numbers required, I think there's absolutely a niche for Leevan to make his and he's probably been overlooked so far.

But better than Wedge or Luke? Not a chance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, as pretty often Pilot skill is the issue. Arc-dodging is difficult when you have to move first, and that’s what Kullbee is all about.

If you want something low PS that moves like crazy, look no further than Sabine on the shuttle. I tend to give her a turret too, to leverage the low PS she has

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Well the Empire is short a large ship or two so the Empire just shrunk down the Raider. We now call it a Pocket Raider, of if you are from the EU a Royale Raider with Cheese.

Well played. Still laughing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

Well the Empire is short a large ship or two so the Empire just shrunk down the Raider. We now call it a Pocket Raider, of if you are from the EU a Royale Raider with Cheese.

Under the Imperial system it‘s a quarter raider, rebel scum!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Icelom said:

How do you figure?

T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 55
    •Wedge Antilles - Red Two (52)
        Daredevil (3)
        Servomotor S-foils (Closed) (0)

Total: 55/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

seems pretty **** legal.

 

It was illegal in first edition, though after a skim of the new rules it seems that the language making it illegal is gone, so I guess it works now.  Chalk it up to more faulty 1.0 thinking I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised nobody in the thread has brought up Thane yet. His ability is bonkers. Cancel one die showing paint in order to look through all damage cards already assigned to the defender and expose the worst one. No evasion, nada. He doesn't need much in the way of upgrades, either. Spend one point for Trick Shot (holy crap is that card undercosted) for a cheap way to generate four-die attack rolls.

Plus, he's Initiative 5, which puts him up there with most of the best aces in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I'm surprised nobody in the thread has brought up Thane yet. His ability is bonkers. Cancel one die showing paint in order to look through all damage cards already assigned to the defender and expose the worst one. No evasion, nada. He doesn't need much in the way of upgrades, either. Spend one point for Trick Shot (holy crap is that card undercosted) for a cheap way to generate four-die attack rolls.

Plus, he's Initiative 5, which puts him up there with most of the best aces in the game.

Thane is good against high health ships, but fairly average against everything else.   At the end of the day you should be taking him for his I5, not his ability. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

The big selling point for the two Renegade aces is definitely cost. Leevan is pretty cheap for what he offers, but to me that makes him much better at supplementing a list rather than being one of the main features. And Luke is obviously really expensive. While I agree with the general consensus that he's the best X-Wing pilot by far, it does require him to be the focus of list building. And given where we seem to be in terms of numbers required, I think there's absolutely a niche for Leevan to make his and he's probably been overlooked so far.

But better than Wedge or Luke? Not a chance. 

Guac, appreciate your thoughts. For me it’s the combination of the cost and their abilities though that I feel makes them superior. Sure, Luke is amazing and I’m not saying he isn’t. Yet, Luke isn’t getting a lot of help due to his cost. Loaded up Luke can cost as much as Leevan and Kulbee combined. In 2.0 especially more shots fired and more HP on the table is currently imho is the better option.  Wedge can certainly be a tougher Argument to make a case for. The biggest draw against Wedge is people are aware of the threat he is, so they will do what they can to deal with him. Kullbee is more likely to catch someone either unaware at worst, or ignored which allows him to work into unsuspecting positions. The final thing is Wedge is I6. Kullbee is 4. Kullbee moves in that interesting Initiative where he can avoid being shot by most of the Generics and then throw blocks on the Aces. So perhaps it is personal preference here but still Valuing the Cavern Angel Aces over the others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Thane is good against high health ships, but fairly average against everything else.   At the end of the day you should be taking him for his I5, not his ability. 

Agreed, his ability does nothing in most games. Either you don’t have a damaged enemy, or you need every hit to actually cause damage, or you just kill the ship off when finally you could use his ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, ForceM said:

Agreed, his ability does nothing in most games. Either you don’t have a damaged enemy, or you need every hit to actually cause damage, or you just kill the ship off when finally you could use his ability.

He’s been amazing for me, but maybe that’s because I fly him with 3 other X-Wings that all attack at initiative 6. Obviously you shouldn’t fly him in a list where he has to attack first. Every time I’ve used his ability it’s resulted in the ship taking additional damage, either from Direct, Fuel Leak, Hull Breach, or Structural Damage.

I notice a lot of people making the mistake of focusing with him instead of target locking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While their abilities are ok, wedge and luke is far superior IMO. I played alot of x-wing lists in 1.0 and their survivability lies in shooting down targets before they fire since 2 agility dosent last long. This seems just as important in 2.0. Sure those pilots have some ok action economy, but luke's force is crazy and wedge ability on the now rare iniative 6 gives alot of opportunity too take out threats before they fire. 

Thane's ability is nice. If you get 1 focus result you can Still deal dmg to targets with cards and keep focus for defence. 

Kullbee have potential though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Swarm Tactics. 

So it’s Wedge, Thane, 2 Reds with 3 Swarm tactics and 5 points of Wiggle room?

I thought i had heard that the daisy chain of Swarm tactics wouldn’t work.

I did run him with Wedge a few times and even then, either the Target ship either died from Wedge, died from Thane without using the ability, or didn’t have any damage cards by the time he shot. Furthermore i had cases where I could not shoot the optimal target with both/all my ships to soften em up for Thane  (sadly they tend to avoid being shot sometimes ?)  Or i plain lost Thane or the game before he became useful.

And on the very rare occasions where it could have mattered, i either rolled full hits (not going to give that up just for the hopes of a good crit) or i didn’t roll anything useful. There were also the cases where i just had the focus to get full hits and no enemy that could shoot me back, so might as well use it.

To me, Thane’s ability seems like some kind of win more strategy when it works.

Don’t get me wrong, i like Thane because he is  a cheap I5 X-Wing. But Lukes and Wedges abilities are useful in felt 90% of the games, where Thane’s has been useful in maybe 10% of the games. And that’s also why he is cheaper, for a good reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Thane is good against high health ships, but fairly average against everything else.   At the end of the day you should be taking him for his I5, not his ability. 

THANEEE!!! THE MAN THEY CALL THANEEEE!!!!!

I would disagree with this statement.  Due to the change in how 'Direct Hit' works, Thane seems more suited to hunting aces that are token/force stacked.  Thane can flip an enemy's direct hit every turn without it rolling defense dice by just rolling paint.  Now you have to get a direct hit on something first, but being able to flip it every turn and kill something without it rolling defense dice is POWERFUL.  He is the rebel Seyn Marana but on crack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

THANEEE!!! THE MAN THEY CALL THANEEEE!!!!!

I would disagree with this statement.  Due to the change in how 'Direct Hit' works, Thane seems more suited to hunting aces that are token/force stacked.  Thane can flip an enemy's direct hit every turn without it rolling defense dice by just rolling paint.  Now you have to get a direct hit on something first, but being able to flip it every turn and kill something without it rolling defense dice is POWERFUL.  He is the rebel Seyn Marana but on crack.

Rolling paint means all blanks, right? Thane has to at least have an eyeball to do this.

It's very possible I don't understand that phrase, sorry if that's the case.

Edited by Ixidor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

THANEEE!!! THE MAN THEY CALL THANEEEE!!!!!

I would disagree with this statement.  Due to the change in how 'Direct Hit' works, Thane seems more suited to hunting aces that are token/force stacked.  Thane can flip an enemy's direct hit every turn without it rolling defense dice by just rolling paint.  Now you have to get a direct hit on something first, but being able to flip it every turn and kill something without it rolling defense dice is POWERFUL.  He is the rebel Seyn Marana but on crack.

I feel like they really made a mistake in allowing Thane to look through and choose the damage card he wanted to flip, rather than exposing a random card.  It really sucks when Thane just has to look at someone for them to die.  I think he'd still be quite good if he couldn't pick exactly the nastiest card to flip.

But that's just like, my opinion, man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×