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T-85 and TIE/FO Interceptor? Let the theorizing being

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It's funny to think Star Wars could have been drastically different if there was more consultation between specialists and the writers.  I've read the Expanse series (to date) and watched the show - the show misses some very important points that are difficult to depict on-screen that the book, of course, makes easy via the reader's imagination (primarily the physical differences between Belters, Martians, and Earthers).  Still, the thank you list of the writers at the back of the book is filled with names of science consultants they used to make things more believable, even though it's still space opera.  There's plenty of interesting science in there and it makes sense in that particular context as it takes place, primarily, in our own system - it has to feel more real because it's our backyard.

I don't think it's 100% necessary - I know my four year old self would agree (Star Wars was the first movie I ever saw and it changed me forever) - but getting the science right helps as I get older and know more things. I, unfortunately (?), know too much to enjoy certain shows/movies. It takes more for me to turn my brain off I suppose. There's still a lot of Star Wars that's total nonsense that I can get behind, and then there's new stuff that I can't (FUEL for the hyperdrives? That's lazy writing of a crappy plot device. Go suck eggs you silly bastiches).

Back to the real topic here: the new ship designs are actually rather smart. Contextually, they make sense - far more sense than white solar panels (seriously?). I'd really like to see an E-wing - it's canon, I believe - why wouldn't they be flying them? Is it a matter of "we didn't make that up so it can't be in the show" or that it's the dumbest looking rebel fighter ever? (Who puts a cannon over a cockpit? A moron, that's who). I've designed ships and characters for a living. My knowledge is vast and varied and I often expect the same from other artists/designers and that simply isn't the case that often. But the T-85 and the new Squint? They tick all my approval boxes.

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26 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

So far, nothing Disney's made has been as bad as the EU's worst- and never, ever will be.

Two words: Vader Down.

That ONE crossover took EVERYTHING the old EU did wrong with the Jedi and Force users in general over several years of storytelling, and ramped it up to 11.

Edited by Ambaryerno

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12 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

I've read the Expanse series (to date) and watched the show - the show misses some very important points that are difficult to depict on-screen that the book, of course, makes easy via the reader's imagination (primarily the physical differences between Belters, Martians, and Earthers).  Still, the thank you list of the writers at the back of the book is filled with names of science consultants they used to make things more believable, even though it's still space opera.

Schlock Mercenary does much the same thing. It's space opera, but the writer shows he's REALLY done his homework on the science.

13 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

I'd really like to see an E-wing - it's canon, I believe - why wouldn't they be flying them? Is it a matter of "we didn't make that up so it can't be in the show" or that it's the dumbest looking rebel fighter ever? (Who puts a cannon over a cockpit? A moron, that's who).

To my mind it recalls the B-25s in the Pacific theater that crammed a 75mm Howitzer into the nose just 'cause. Basically it looks to me like the designers came up with a fast, agile, tough ship, only to realize that its more conventional configuration meant it was a bit undergunned next to the X-wing, and they needed to find SOMEWHERE to fit one, so may as well strap it on up top (I've studied the design extensively. The belly gun I often see proposed would not be a logical place to put an extra gun).

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4 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

Two words: Vader Down.

That ONE crossover took EVERYTHING the old EU did wrong with the Jedi and Force users in general, and ramped it up to 11.

I disagree.

Gratuitous displays of Force powers aren't inherently bad in themselves... it all depends on how that display is used.

And the look on Leia's face when she gives up a shot at the monster who tortured her and forced her to watch as her planet was destroyed, who had just destroyed wave after wave of soldiers Leia sent to their deaths, in order to save her friends... THAT makes it worth it to me.

That's just me though.

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9 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

it all depends on how that display is used.

I think Vader casually throwing around proton torpedoes in Vader Down qualifies as "inherently bad" considering if Red Leader's timing was just a hair better Luke never would have needed to make his attack run. If Vader was anything approaching as powerful as he was in Vader Down in the original film, Red Leader wouldn't have gotten within a mile of his release point. ****, Vader would have wiped out all of Red Squadron with a wave of his hand without even having to get in his fighter if he was that powerful in the movie.

Edited by Ambaryerno

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1 hour ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

FUEL for the hyperdrives? That's lazy writing of a crappy plot device. Go suck eggs you silly bastiches

I have to laugh at this. Legends Wedge grew up working at his family's fuel depot and there were atleast a few times that hyperdrive fuel efficiency was brought up in comparison to normal engines...

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That's Legends, and it was utilized well, especially in the X-wing novels.

The problem is it's not even so much as referenced in a canon source (other than the fuel hoses in the ANH hangar scene) prior to TLJ, when they suddenly decided to build their entire A plot around it. It's not even a consideration in ESB for either the Falcon (under heavy pursuit from the moment she lifts off at Hoth until they reach Bespin) or Luke and his X-wing (who makes the trip from Hoth, to Dagobah, to Bespin without a pit stop).

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1 minute ago, Ambaryerno said:

That's Legends, and it was utilized well, especially in the X-wing novels.

The problem is it's not even so much as referenced in a canon source (other than the fuel hoses in the ANH hangar scene) prior to TLJ, when they suddenly decided to build their entire A plot around it. It's not even a consideration in ESB for either the Falcon (under heavy pursuit from the moment she lifts off at Hoth until they reach Bespin) or Luke and his X-wing (who makes the trip from Hoth, to Dagobah, to Bespin without a pit stop).

Hate to be devil's advocate considering I hate TLJ's use of it but it is sort of mentioned in TPM with the Nubian ship being damaged with its hyperdrive leaking which is why they went to Tatooine instead of Coruscant and since they had to replace the hyperdrive was likely more that than a fuel issue but it sort of counts. 

Also, less serious is that obviously Luke's pit stop was cut for obvious reasons.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

That's Legends, and it was utilized well, especially in the X-wing novels.

The problem is it's not even so much as referenced in a canon source (other than the fuel hoses in the ANH hangar scene) prior to TLJ, when they suddenly decided to build their entire A plot around it. It's not even a consideration in ESB for either the Falcon (under heavy pursuit from the moment she lifts off at Hoth until they reach Bespin) or Luke and his X-wing (who makes the trip from Hoth, to Dagobah, to Bespin without a pit stop).

There were a number of mentions of starship fuel in TCW and Rebels.

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1 hour ago, Ambaryerno said:

Two words: Vader Down.

That ONE crossover took EVERYTHING the old EU did wrong with the Jedi and Force users in general over several years of storytelling, and ramped it up to 11.

Haven't seen that one. Is it really worse than Jaxon the rabbit or a fish man han, leia and luke were inside and could breathe the blood of? Was it really?

1 hour ago, Ambaryerno said:

Schlock Mercenary does much the same thing. It's space opera, but the writer shows he's REALLY done his homework on the science.

To my mind it recalls the B-25s in the Pacific theater that crammed a 75mm Howitzer into the nose just 'cause. Basically it looks to me like the designers came up with a fast, agile, tough ship, only to realize that its more conventional configuration meant it was a bit undergunned next to the X-wing, and they needed to find SOMEWHERE to fit one, so may as well strap it on up top (I've studied the design extensively. The belly gun I often see proposed would not be a logical place to put an extra gun).

Oh my frakking god thank you. And I've had guns right there in games, it really doesn't effect you. Like at all.

40 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I have to laugh at this. Legends Wedge grew up working at his family's fuel depot and there were atleast a few times that hyperdrive fuel efficiency was brought up in comparison to normal engines...

I'm glad others see that hyperdrive fuel isn't dumb. Like, for real. There's no way Hyperdrives have the same fuel as normal engines.

14 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

That's Legends, and it was utilized well, especially in the X-wing novels.

The problem is it's not even so much as referenced in a canon source (other than the fuel hoses in the ANH hangar scene) prior to TLJ, when they suddenly decided to build their entire A plot around it. It's not even a consideration in ESB for either the Falcon (under heavy pursuit from the moment she lifts off at Hoth until they reach Bespin) or Luke and his X-wing (who makes the trip from Hoth, to Dagobah, to Bespin without a pit stop).

So, you're really bigtime forgetting a few things.
1: The Resistance is worse supplied than The Rebel Alliance ever was.
2: They weren't really using it in the usual way.

They were at a CONSTANT burn away from the Supremacy in realspace. You're GONNA' run out of fuel if you burn that way for that long- anybody who's played KSP knows how true that is. Hyperspace basically conserves fuel, in the long run. But seriously, their fuel stocks were already probably PRETTY LOW. That they actually had eighteen hours of fuel to burn at enough speed to keep away from the largest starship ever built is... Pretty incredible, honestly.

10 minutes ago, CaptainIxidor said:

There were a number of mentions of starship fuel in TCW and Rebels.

Also this.

Like, what, are ships supposed to run on hopes and dreams? The main FUNCTION of space stations and starports is refueling ffs.

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Just going ahead and posting pictures from the video that Stealthcmc1974 linked of a realistic render of the T-85, so if you like the images make sure to like his post. All of the images are from EC Henry's video.

7SdPPjF.png

The T-85 with its colors.

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Side view, and shows off the work EC Henry put into adding detail, notably in the interior of the wing to bring it in line with the T-70.

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Rear of the craft.

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A view of the S-foils closed with color.

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S-Foils open, the one on the left is the wings split according to the show while the one on the right is the render's adjustment to have it split the same way the T-65 and T-70 do aka the reason we can have flappy wing tech now in the minis. 

3xlVJ6H.png

Edited by Animewarsdude

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11 hours ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

But the T-85 and the new Squint? They tick all my approval boxes.

Agreed. The new squint looks like...well, it looks like quite a few things. What it actually looks like is a bastardised mix of a TIE/v1 prototype and the production version of the TIE interceptor. Which makes sense - the First Order is supposed to be numerically small(er) at this point, and has proportionately fewer pilots but more money and tech to spend on each pilot - so the same argument which strapped a shield generator on a TIE/ln fighter to turn it into a TIE/fo makes sense for them to look at the TIE/v1 which we've only ever seen the Empire bothered to issue to the Inquisitorus and say "we can probably make something based off that but better". We don't know exactly what Commander Pyre is, but if he's essentially an Agent Terex-esque intel/security type then him having personal mobility makes sense.

It would also fit nicely into the board game.

We have a TIE fighter analogue - the TIE/fo.

The TIE/sf is either an X-wing analogue or a TIE bomber analogue depending on whether you equip the special forces gunner or missiles.

The TIE Silencer looks like it's probably a TIE defender equivalent - 6 hits, 3 agility, massive upgrade bar and action bar, cost-is-no-object super-ship

The first order don't really have an Interceptor/V1 equivalent - something with a touch more punch than a fighter and manouvrability but still the ability to be fielded in a squad of 4 or 5 ships.

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, Jarval said:

I mean, they may be doing just that...

qbsrotP.png

 

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:14 PM, mithril2098 said:

It isnt. I grabbed a screenshot of it from another angle and it is just an Ugly using Lambda shuttle parts. Looks like the pirate main shuttle.

44907511462_da64c40406_o.png

 

Agreed. There's too much loose greebling on the hull to think it's not supposed to be an ugly, and those are definitely lambda bits.

I wish a lambda could move like that, though....

The fighters are actually kind of interesting in that shot. At first watching of Triple Dark I thought they were uglies too, but they look identical, with only rotating the stub wings different - so they could be a production class with some sort of aerosurface instead.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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This is only a year before TFA, so i doubt they were all that much smaller in manpower. But they are, in general, smaller than the Empire ever was, so they go for quality not just quantity. and they definitely were trying to look like a small organization at the time. keeping their new Star Destroyers hidden away in the unknown regions, and not even sending their older Imperial Class ships into the wider galaxy often either, relying more on heavy and light cruisers, frigates, etc. same as the majority of the New Republic. sorta like japan after WW1. played along with the naval restriction treaties publicly, while working on a lot of treaty breaking hardware covertly until they had the right moment to reveal a powerful force.

the First order, prior to the events of TFA, were trying to convince the wider galaxy that they were just another small imperial remnant, and relatively harmless. and their presence outside the Unknown Regions, in the areas of the ex-imperial splinter groups and such, pretty much fit that narrative. potent gear, but not all that publicly large, and they were very careful to try and keep their more oppressive imperial style activities covert, to make a better impression in the new Republic. you see a lot of this in the Poe Dameron comics and the sequel trilogy related written works.

one thing that stands out to me is that i'd almost swear that the FO interceptor feels older than the TIE/FO and TIE/SF.. something about the mix of the interceptor and V1 features. probably just because it resembles the TIE/V1 so much, and that is an older design relative to 34 ABY. sticking interceptor style panel shapes seems like something that would be the next step after the V1.. and something that obviously would have been tried well before 34 ABY. probably just a perception thing on my part.

i have reconsidered my thoughts on the weapons it used though.. the white blast things. i am no longer sure those are meant to be concussion missiles.. mainly because the gunports that fire them look too small to be missile tubes. and it obviously wasn't carrying them externally like the TIE Defender Elite did. so now i'm wondering if that wasn't the "mag pulse warheads" weapon that was part of the TIE/SF's arsenal according to Poe, and which got mentions as a weapon the T-70 and TIE/SF could use in the cutaways book. such a weapon might not be a missile, but rather more like a cannon. and having a magnetic field effect could help explain the way the blasts went into a helical spiral. presumably they'd disable the target in some fashion, or perhaps mess up certain systems, resulting in major damage to the target.

 

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14 hours ago, WAC47 said:

I agree NJO was a weird turning point for the EU, but I'd say the seeds of the EU going off the rails were planted much earlier. Dark Empire is almost as foundational for the EU as the Thrawn trilogy, and in that the events of RotJ are almost literally overturned, by having Luke turn to the Dark Side and the Emperor reborn.

Boy, Dark Empire is terrible...

I do love most EU made around the OT, but there is so much crap they wrote after the RotJ timeline... Disney didn't need to wipe out everything, but in the end it was a good thing.

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15 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I have to laugh at this. Legends Wedge grew up working at his family's fuel depot and there were atleast a few times that hyperdrive fuel efficiency was brought up in comparison to normal engines...

LOL - you MUST realize it was just a crappy plot device though, right?  I don't care about the validity of hyperdrive fuel (which is really a stupid concept in general - every ship has a reactor that generates energy and there's no reaction mass used in hyperspace, so, um yeah - there's no science you can throw at me to make me think otherwise - it's a stupid concept - hyperdrives open a gap into some sort of sub-space; a dimension where the speed of light can be exceeded). So, let's just accept that hyperdrive fuel is a thing. It's still lazy writing to have that be the thing that causes the downfall of the Resistance. There should have been an epic battle filled with heroic acts.  Instead, we got The Last Jedi.

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4 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

LOL - you MUST realize it was just a crappy plot device though, right?  I don't care about the validity of hyperdrive fuel (which is really a stupid concept in general - every ship has a reactor that generates energy and there's no reaction mass used in hyperspace, so, um yeah - there's no science you can throw at me to make me think otherwise - it's a stupid concept - hyperdrives open a gap into some sort of sub-space; a dimension where the speed of light can be exceeded). So, let's just accept that hyperdrive fuel is a thing. It's still lazy writing to have that be the thing that causes the downfall of the Resistance. There should have been an epic battle filled with heroic acts.  Instead, we got The Last Jedi.

Hear that, everyone? In this populist film universe featuring Samurai Telepath Space Wizards with magic Glow-O-Swords where spaceships fly like WW2 fighters, the thing that we shouldn't be able to accept as scientifically plausible is that Spaceships Need Fuel To Travel. Oh and also it's ridiculous that the Good Guys who have been defined for 40 years as being poor and scattered and fighting a guerrilla war should be undone by supply problems.

Christ almighty.

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10 minutes ago, Rodafowa said:

Hear that, everyone? In this populist film universe featuring Samurai Telepath Space Wizards with magic Glow-O-Swords where spaceships fly like WW2 fighters, the thing that we shouldn't be able to accept as scientifically plausible is that Spaceships Need Fuel To Travel. Oh and also it's ridiculous that the Good Guys who have been defined for 40 years as being poor and scattered and fighting a guerrilla war should be undone by supply problems.

Christ almighty.

Lazy writing man.  I clearly stated that I accept the fuel issue - it's still lazy writing.

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3 hours ago, Odanan said:

Boy, Dark Empire is terrible...

I do love most EU made around the OT, but there is so much crap they wrote after the RotJ timeline... Disney didn't need to wipe out everything, but in the end it was a good thing.

I agree! To take an opportunity to expand on the point: the quality of the stories has less to do with the reset as the opening up of room to tell more stories. 

Lucasfilm wasn’t saying “Legends was bad, let’s start over” (although there was a lot that was bad, just as there was plenty that was good). It was saying “we need to tell more stories, and Legends restricts what we can do too much” 

And judging by how vehemently people on the internet disagree about what from Legends was good... picking and choosing what stories to keep would’ve been impossible, and confusing to anyone unfamiliar with those stories. A hard reset was necessary, but it has little to do with an evaluation of quality. 

 

Also, @Bad Idea Comics is clearly not open to changing their opinion about starship fuel. I personally think it is a weird hill to die on given no one has ever said “thank goodness our hyperdrives don’t need fuel” at any point in a Star Wars story and you shouldn’t hold writers to your headcanon, but I think the conversation should move on. 

Edited by WAC47

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13 minutes ago, WAC47 said:

Also, @Bad Idea Comics is clearly not open to changing their opinion about starship fuel. I personally think it is a weird hill to die on given no one has ever said “thank goodness our hyperdrives don’t need fuel” at any point in a Star Wars story and you shouldn’t hold writers to your headcanon, but I think the conversation should move on. 

The problem is HOW fuel is used as a plot point. Case in point:

In Legends, the Falcon's record on the Kessel Run is entirely a matter of Han's abilities as a pilot and navigator, and the speed of the Falcon's engines. Solo takes away from both and makes it about the Magic Hyperfuel (and gratuitous over-the-top CGI monsters). I mean it was like watching someone solving a puzzle in a video game. "Oh noes! We're being sucked into a black hole! What do we have in our inventory that can get us out of this predicament?"

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10 minutes ago, Ambaryerno said:

The problem is HOW fuel is used as a plot point. Case in point:

In Legends, the Falcon's record on the Kessel Run is entirely a matter of Han's abilities as a pilot and navigator, and the speed of the Falcon's engines. Solo takes away from both and makes it about the Magic Hyperfuel (and gratuitous over-the-top CGI monsters). I mean it was like watching someone solving a puzzle in a video game. "Oh noes! We're being sucked into a black hole! What do we have in our inventory that can get us out of this predicament?"

Man, you try REALLY hard not to enjoy things don’t you. 

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