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MasterShake2

Y so serious?

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So it was becoming apparent that I would need to do some reevaluating in terms of Rebels in X-Wing 2.0.  I wasn't that I had no success, but Scum and Empire was significantly better in key areas and it was hard to overcome the problem when confronted with a skilled player using that toolset.  In short it was time to analyze and identify the problem.  Part of it was that I was not flying great, so I trying to put together something basic and something that I could fly in a wave restricted event. 

 

Rebel Synergy is Dead- for now, at least, Rebel synergy is DoA.  Some of it is costing, but really, it's just a case that it frequently requires maintaining a semi-predictable formation and often being forced into a joust, but not quite being good enough to win the joust against squads built for it mostly because of how much weaker the defensive tech in Rebels is now vs. 1.0.  Rebels also have some really anomalous holes in capabilities such as the lack of way to buff the attacks of cheap generics that every other faction currently has (in some cases multiple options).

 

Rebels don't have a super ace- The closest you really get is Luke, maybe Wedge, but X-Wing isn't quite good enough to allow these aces to carry the way you need a super ace to carry.  The I6 offerings are pretty weak.  Wedge is decent enough for his cost, but not spectacular, Han is amazing, but probably over half your list, Fenn Rau is comically overcosted to the point of unusability (wohoo, 52pt support ship!). 

 

In short, the prospects for really interesting combos that can't just be casually torn apart by a skilled player was very lacking and there really wasn't a pilot that I was confident is just dumping upgrades on to carry the team outside of Han, but he's a lot of your list.  So, back to basics.  I started breaking what was and wasn't working on a much more fundamental level. 

 

The winner is-  looking at the numbers the various jousting options for rebels were throwing up, there was a clear winner and not by a small margin.  A Y-Wing with Proton Torpedoes and an R4 Astromech.  It beat basically everything and it's performances weren't sporadic with some great and some terrible games.  It was very consistently good with the occasional amazing performance.  This puzzled me, because the first list I threw it in was a lark, but I dropped it in a few more just because I had the Y's on hand.  Clearly, scientific method, see if the performance of the Y-Wing was an anomaly or if it was actually the strongest generic platform in the faction.

 

This, naturally raises the question of "what list do I put it in".  All Y-Wings has a lot of problems, and they're very similar problems to the all TIE bomber or whatever lists, in that you're very inflexible, your options are limited and you don't have an end game.  Since the points worked out perfectly, the best wingmen seemed to be Luke and Wedge.  The justification was very straightforward:  Both Luke and Wedge could present problems late game if the opponent left them alone and their higher Initiative with more reposition access added key flexibility to set up the joust I wanted.  I didn't have points for anything but the free S-Foils on them, but my concern level about that was pretty minimal since my personal observation is that these pilots are super strong if kept cheap, but will struggle to justify their presence the more points you dump on them simply because Wedge has no defensive tech whatsoever and Luke is solid defensively, but suffers if he's confronted with I6's or I5's with a larger bid and good reposition options.  In short, a pair of pocket closers, ships that can end the game, but that you don't suffer too badly if they're lost.

 

Luke Skywalker — X-Wing 62
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 62
   
Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 52
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 52
   
Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing 32
Proton Torpedoes 9
R4 Astromech 2
Ship Total: 43
   
Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing 32
Proton Torpedoes 9
R4 Astromech 2
Ship Total: 43

 

So the experimentation began.  I tried to play against a little bit of everything, Rebel 4-5 ship lists, scum jank, various flavors of imperial efficiency and aces and a wide array of different skill levels including some of the strongest players in the local meta.  Game after game, those Y-Wings were just brutally effective.  A huge part of it was the torps naturally turning a hit into a crit, so those faceups become a problem really fast and the "salt in the wound" is getting a Fuel Leak from the first torp that the second torp is almost garaunteed to trigger before you can do anything about it.  They have a solid amount of hp, the torps hit unbelievably hard and the addition of Barrel Roll adds a lot of utility to have them function as blockers.  The biggest feature that differentiated the Y-Wings was that I basically never had to debate whether I wanted to fire a torp.  They have Reload, there's always more torps.  Spends them like it's an Olympic event.  I've dumped torps into Academy pilots on at least 3 occasions and the accademy pilot regretted it's poor life choice every time.  You can also fly to engineer a block while reloading or just reload if you're down a torp while blocking because you're not contributing damage anyways.  And with the R4, you're not worried about clearing the stress.  So far the list is undefeated which I find hilarious because it basically has no gimmick or super efficiency buff.  It's not trying to do anything crazy, it just has good and reasonably well costed platforms.

 

I've been refining my approach in terms of tactics and how to split the enemy joust or force them to commit to one element and have the other drop in behind.  I've also refined a lot of when I spend locks.  Unless I really need a kill shot and the extra dice will make the difference, I'm pretty confident not spending on 2 hits, and I almost never spend on 3 unless I'm going to have to start reloading anyways.  Keeping your locks allow for a lot of versatility and a hit +crit is a perfectly acceptable result for a low 40s jouster in 2.0 especially if it's a range 3 that they aren't getting the extra die against.  It's almost certainly not the best 2.0 list out there (god I hope not), but most of the games haven't been that close.  I had 1 where Luke was the only ship left, at full health against 2 enemy ships at 1.  He killed both of them without taking damage.  I also had a game where a Y-Wing finished off a Reaper the same turn it killed Luke, but the Y-Wing was still almost at full health behind the reaper and the Reaper had just slooped, so it was definitely taking a torp next turn even if it survived.  In short, it was probably dead even if the Y-Wing didn't score a full string with a Direct hit.  I've had 2 games where I tabled my opponent without losing a ship.

 

It would be more than appropriate to say, I've been impressed by the versatility and hitting power of the Y-Wing with torps, which is why it absolutely amazes me that nobody is talking about it.  It might be a relic of 1.0 where players only ever really used Y-Wings orbiting around the battlefield firing turrets and where the torpedoes were really crap and expensive and you only had 1 of them, maybe 2 if you took extra munitions, so this type of Y-Wing even being playable, much less good, was absolutely unheard of. 

 

TL:DR- Y-Wings with torps and an R4 are a remarkably solid contender for the best generic in faction for it's points

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I love the name of the thread!  Since it's a quote from the villian The Joker i was expecting a scum list :p   But I do agree with the potential the Y-wing has.  Scum Y's with Ion turrets and Vet. Turret Gun. gives it a possibility of double taping :) 

 

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I wrote up a similar list with dorsal turrets instead of proton torps.

I’ve been wanting to try the new torps but the 9pt cost has scared me off...

Thanks for reminding me about reload! I’ll have to try some torps soon. ?

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ProTorps are strong in general. Best ordnance in the game (hence the cost) and the Y-Wing is a great platform for them. Even as a filler ship, a grey Y with ProTorps is just 41pts. Add R4, 43pts. Thats a steal.

 

I like your list a lot. You have a lot of options on setup and approach. Your opponent really has to make tough decisions, which in most cases will be wrong and you can make them pay dearly for that. The Y-Wing is in a really good place in 2.0 although not many are talking about it (maybe Norra gets some run, she is really good). Lets try to keep it a secret >.>

Edited by DubWing

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I have come to similar conclusion, and the list i built looks incredibly similar, the only difference being Thane instead of Wedge, which allows me to upgrade grays to golds, and Thane's ability mid-game is a Monster.

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Good read! 

I like the approach and can confirm from being on the other end of proton torpedoes that they are really strong. 

Also like the choice of Droid, the Y gets quite nimble that way

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@MasterShake2 what do you think of going all out with proton torps at PS3, even if it means losing the aces? Something like this?

T-65 X-wing - Red Squadron Veteran - 55
    Red Squadron Veteran - (43)
        Elusive (3)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - Red Squadron Veteran - 55
    Red Squadron Veteran - (43)
        Elusive (3)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gold Squadron Veteran - 45
    Gold Squadron Veteran - (34)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        R4 Astromech (2)

BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gold Squadron Veteran - 45
    Gold Squadron Veteran - (34)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        R4 Astromech (2)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

I imaging having them all at the same PS would make manoeuvring easier. And I find X-Wings with foils closed to be an amazing torp platform - agile but still representing a serious threat. But are the aces essential to the list?

Edited by Ockh

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42 minutes ago, Ockh said:

@MasterShake2 what do you think of going all out with proton torps at PS3, even if it means losing the aces? Something like this?

T-65 X-wing - Red Squadron Veteran - 55
    Red Squadron Veteran - (43)
        Elusive (3)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

T-65 X-wing - Red Squadron Veteran - 55
    Red Squadron Veteran - (43)
        Elusive (3)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)

BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gold Squadron Veteran - 45
    Gold Squadron Veteran - (34)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        R4 Astromech (2)

BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gold Squadron Veteran - 45
    Gold Squadron Veteran - (34)
        Proton Torpedoes (9)
        R4 Astromech (2)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

I imaging having them all at the same PS would make manoeuvring easier. And I find X-Wings with foils closed to be an amazing torp platform - agile but still representing a serious threat. But are the aces essential to the list?

 

Kind of.  What makes the list hard to play against for some people and also not that easy to pick up is that aces are simultaneously completely disposable and utterly indispensable.  I had a game against Whisper, Vermil and Sai where I basically traded Luke and Wedge for Whisper and Vermil which sounds a little dumb until you realize this left me with 2 full health Y-Wings behind Sai and they just chased after her firing torps and reloading until the shuttle dropped.  A big part of the list strategy is that people will try to take out or trade for the aces and being able to effectively bait or decide when you want to give one up is a big deal.  It also very noteworthy that much of the list revolves around throwing attacks that can't be blocked completely if they roll a full string and Wedge does that with no upgrades and at high Initiative, so he functions as a pseudo torpedo ship, just lacking 1 on the high end of damage, but not needing a target lock.  Luke is also just a fantastic damage sponge that everyone wants to kill which can take pressure off the Y's while opponents mess around with him. 

 

One of my last games against Kavil, Old Teroch and Guri, I tabled my opponent and only gave up half points on 1 of the Y-Wings.  Luke messed around with Guri and just kept maneuvering to block to stall her.  By the time my opponent realized this and tried to speed away from Luke, the main joust had already been decided.  Specifically, 1 Y-Wing blocked Kavil at range 1 of Wedge and range 2 of the second Y and Kavil was turned into confetti while doing no damage.  Old Teroch had to run away and swing around a rock, but the blocking Y for Kavil had already locked him assuming Kavil would die and was able to quickly swing into pursuit and torp him as he appeared from behind an asteroid, then maneuver for a block that the other Y used for a second torp which dropped him.  It was at this time Guri rejoined the fight with Luke chasing after her and I was able to repeatedly block her in the Y's as Wedge and Luke powered her down.

 

The TL:DR version is that the list happily sacrifices aces to get board position or attrition edges, but requires the potential threat of the aces to present a real dilemma to the other player that you can use to split attention on key turns.

Edited by MasterShake2

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4 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

the list happily sacrifices aces to get board position or attrition edges, but requires the potential threat of the aces to present a real dilemma to the other player that you can use to split attention on key turns.

I would love to play against this list. My immediate thought was that I have to take out a Ywing before it shoots.

Did anyone try this, and how did that work?

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I would love to play against this list. My immediate thought was that I have to take out a Ywing before it shoots.

Did anyone try this, and how did that work?

 

The 2 problems that make this not work as well are

1)  The Y-Wings always use the asteroid field as cover to prevent direct engagement.  It's kind of the opposite of what people expect since you don't usually see ordinance wielding generics going through rocks, but it makes it hard to directly confront them without limiting your own options and making you predictable i.e. easy to block and it also extends that 1 green die on the Y-Wings that much further.

 

2)  Both of the aces are high initiative and have boost.  In short, they can adjust position very quickly.  This combines with the limited movement options in the asteroid field for a recipe for disaster if your try to attack them through the rocks since they can jump in behind when the Y-Wings start setting up blocks.

 

The TL:DR version is that the list is actually set up to punish people who try and more than a few aces have found themselves blocked into torp shots for their efforts.  It's also noteworthy that the Y-Wings always leave themselves room for a hard 2 with a roll 1st turn if don't like the joust through asteroid option and, again, trying to chase them with the 2 aces gets rendered inviable very quickly.

 

I guess this is pretty fascinating because the squad is so basic, that my strategy doesn't center at all around synergy or combos, but just around solving problems with maneuvering and setup.

 

 

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I have looked at Y's, particularly as a response to TIE Bombers.  And the reason I keep not fielding them is that they're just a little dull to fly.  Turns out I *really* like how Interceptor-type ships move, even if I hate how they tend to pop.  So I've been messing about with a similar idea, but I've been trying to force turrets in there.  I think, though, that you may have to right way here, dropping the turrets.  Thanks for giving me something to think about.

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7 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

1)  The Y-Wings always use the asteroid field as cover to prevent direct engagement.

I don‘t understand. The first turn a Grey can take a target lock is the second turn of me shooting on it. Even with an obstructed attack it will die. Also, that assumes you can approach in asteroid cover, and that needs some compliance from your opponent.

7 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

2)  Both of the aces are high initiative and have boost

Sure. I should have mentioned my list, Whisper Soontir Redline, or Vader Soontir Redline. Your second high ace isn‘t an ace to me, and Wedge... well that‘s something I can ignore long enough? I think?

I‘m really curious

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40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don‘t understand. The first turn a Grey can take a target lock is the second turn of me shooting on it. 

 

Yeah, everybody assumes this and then takes torps on the initial joust anyways.  Like literally every squadron has been higher initiative except for 2 of them and all games but 1, I've gotten locks and torps off on the initial volley.  The rocks are a bigger deal than people realize because it makes it hard to jump range bands and targets moving laterally as opposed to straight at you have a harder time jumping range bands as well.  Also, I can usually spot when players are going for a range band jump and set up a block.  Funnily enough, giving me initiative might be a mistake because it lets me use more ships and the more agile and faster ships as blockers and I don't care about losing their damage.

 

I guess it's one of those, "you'd have to see it" things, but nobody has stopped those Y-Wings from firing at least 1 torp each yet.

 

To paraphrase the great poet Mike Tyson:  Everybody has a plan until you hit them with the first Proton Torpedo

Edited by MasterShake2

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The Y-Wing has been my favourite ship since I started playing the game. I'm so glad to see there are more ways to play them now than just a turret carrier going in circles ?

I wonder if there could be a Scum equivalent to your list. ? There's nothing quite like Luke to sponge up incoming fire that I can immediately think of, but there must be something equally fun with a similar spirit...

Fang Fighters? Kihraxzs? 

 

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This is fascinating. I've definitely been feeling that simpler is better, so much is decided by tactical flying rather than cards now.

This list scares the bejesus out of me tbh. How much depends on the Ys blocking, if they're targeted 1st? I fly Defenders with AS atm and they're pretty **** hard to block. I feel like I might be able tease the Ys, hop them, take the aces and return to finish them off. But really, I don't push out enough damage, so eventually, you'd just catch me and hit the erase button.

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My gut reaction is to try and take Wedge down first, as he is the squishiest ship but still hits really hard. Then... the y-wings? Luke? I DON"T KNOW!!!!

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Leia's Y Wings

(50) Magva Yarro
(0) Pivot Wing
(8) Leia Organa
(1) Crack Shot
Points 59

(32) Gray Squadron Bomber
(2) R4 Astromech
(4) Dorsal Turret
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 47

(32) Gray Squadron Bomber
(2) R4 Astromech
(4) Dorsal Turret
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 47

(32) Gray Squadron Bomber
(2) R4 Astromech
(4) Dorsal Turret
(9) Proton Torpedoes
Points 47

Total points: 200

seriouslY?

This list has been really good for me so far. Magva helps against other torps and she causes traffic jams with full stop. Leia helps them all turn around for a beta strike. The dorsal turrets are for potshots.

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Interesting points. The highlight being the DoA synergy of the Rebels. The previews from the the devs kept stating this was the main pillar of the Rebel faction and there appears to be absolutely nothing.

I've also been thinking the same about the "aces". Wedges ability is cool but he is no Poe or Fenn, and Luke is no Vader. I keep thinking Wedge might be better with an editional talent slot, something to set him appart, give him a lot of combinations. Luke could also do with a talent slot for the extra options, as the force upgrades are just wanting right now. Save supernatural tho it's expensive, I just find I may want to throw a few points on Luke and their are no options for that.

Perhaps a "Rogue/Red One" title card for the X-wings to give that ace the extra bump, something conditional for +I5 T-65's; like the "black one" title, might be the fix for this.

Anyway additional thought about the list. Perhaps removing one of R4 astro's for "chopper"? As you can reload you have a constant shield refresh. Then perhaps Magva Yarrow with tactical officer for Wedge. Magva's ability will keep target locks against you at bay but also the coordinate will give you the action economy to use chopper and reload in the same turn.

Edited by Tyhar7
Additional thoughts

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I was looking for an inspiration to take some strong rebel list onto a small tournament (6 people) which I could handle, as I play about 2 times a month. I saw one buddy from our local game store using protorps Y-wings (Dutch and Horton) with good outcome. And your discussion helped me and I made my mind yesterday. Today I took that exact list:

Luke Skywalker — X-Wing 62
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 62
   
Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 52
Servomotor S-Foils 0
Ship Total: 52
   
Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing 32
Proton Torpedoes 9
R4 Astromech 2
Ship Total: 43
   
Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing 32
Proton Torpedoes 9
R4 Astromech 2
Ship Total: 43

It was great. I went 3-0 with this one, first time playing Ys in 2.0. I tabled fun Boba Fett list with 4-LOM and Unkar Plutt, not losing a single ship. I also won against Soontir with Redline and packed up Whisper (Vader, colision detector, juke). That one was lucky, as I correctly judged Soontir's sloop, who was trying to take down Wedge in 1 on 1 combat. Wedge took barrel roll and then Soontir landed just a tiny bit ahead of Wedge. Hit and crit rolled. 2 green dice- 0 evades. Hit and a direct hit. That have changed the match.

The third one was Redline with Vermeil and Whisper.

Anyway, it seems that simple 2 y-wings can make a real difference. Proton torpedoes are great and mess up opponent's target priority selection.

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So I tempted to use this list but can't shake not having Luke with SnR. Was thinking of dumping the droids on the Ywings and replacing Wedge with Sabine using Juke. 

Thoughts?

 

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37 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

So I tempted to use this list but can't shake not having Luke with SnR. Was thinking of dumping the droids on the Ywings and replacing Wedge with Sabine using Juke. 

Thoughts?

 

I'm not quite sold that's the right way to go bud. The OP has given a pretty reasonable explanation over how is this specific build is optimised to work this way or another. But please, do try it out and let us know the results! 

On another note, I guess I know the frustration of the point you got yourself to - with Rebels, there always seems to be like 3.5 of a place for the ships you'd like to fly, then you end up stripping someone down to fit in another cheap pilot, or bloat the squad with often unnecessary gimmicks just to get some value out of the dead points. Am I right? 

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18 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

So I tempted to use this list but can't shake not having Luke with SnR. Was thinking of dumping the droids on the Ywings and replacing Wedge with Sabine using Juke. 

Thoughts?

 

 

By all means, try it, but that would be a fundamentally different list. SnR makes sense if a core part of your strategy is arc dodging, but this list doesn't really prioritize that as you can probably tell by the 0 bid. It also plays on how cheap and disposable the unupgraded aces are.

17 hours ago, ryfterek said:

I'm not quite sold that's the right way to go bud. The OP has given a pretty reasonable explanation over how is this specific build is optimised to work this way or another. But please, do try it out and let us know the results! 

On another note, I guess I know the frustration of the point you got yourself to - with Rebels, there always seems to be like 3.5 of a place for the ships you'd like to fly, then you end up stripping someone down to fit in another cheap pilot, or bloat the squad with often unnecessary gimmicks just to get some value out of the dead points. Am I right? 

 

Kind of, but it's also how much worse the crew and gunners are for Rebels and much less impactful EPTs are in general. Just too many times where I'm fine spending points, but there's nothing to spend it on.

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