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westiebestie

Your opinions on Force, and counters to it

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Now that 2.0 has been out a while, how do you view the new Force mechanic?

Summary: Force can be spent in the same way as Calculate tokens, changing results to hits/evades. But they regenerate every turn for most Force users.  You don't need to do an action to get these, and you regen even if you bump etc.

Force also gives you access to VERY powerful force abilities which all break core game mechanics:

-Supernatural reflexes allows you to do a reposition action before you activate 

-Instinctive aim lets you omit the Lock requirement on ordnance, e.g. Torpedoes

-Sense allows you to look at other ships' dials

-Heightened Perception allows you to attack first, or rather at I7

 

Counters? I see no counters. You can't block them as you would to deny token gaining via actions, you can't strip their tokens, you can't stop the regen, you can't stop them using it. You can't deny them the Lock if they have Instinctive aim. Just suck it up.

My opinion? Since it's concept that breaks core mechanics and principles it has to be priced highly to not be the cheese of 2.0. Force pilots are expensive, but still seem to be doing rather well. Luke/Vader are both top of the crop. I would like to see some kind of counter at some stage. E.g. an upgrade that creates a range 0-1 bubble in which Force can't be spent? Or some kind of limitation if the Force user overlaps so you at least can try to counter it.

What's your opinion and take on counters to Force?

Edited by westiebestie

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Luke still only has 2 green dice.  Overwhelm him with red dice and he melts.  Watch the Gold Squadron classic and see what happens to him vs Boba + Guri.  He got boxed in and evaporated in one turn.

Vader can still be blocked, it just takes more than one ship.  

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4 minutes ago, westiebestie said:

-Supernatural reflexes allows you to reposition before you activate (even if you are stressed, unlike Advanced Sensors)

Supernatural says "perform a boost or barrel roll action", so it still doesn't work if you are stressed.

Edited by evcameron

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I haven't used a force user yet, but I like it.  It's thematic and seems to play well.  I like that it costs quite a bit.  I bought a second TIE/v1 in order to field a pair of Inquisitors with Heightened Perception and some sort of missile because In7 alpha strikes could be interesting.  And then they're a nightmare in the late game.

 

Counters?  They're just another ship.  Plan ahead - shoot at them with multiple ships.  Or, gain an advantage another way: I killed Luke handily, twice, with Defenders sporting Outmaneuver.  Luke's ability does a lot less when he's rolling only one Agility die.

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3 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

 

Counters?  They're just another ship.  Plan ahead - shoot at them with multiple ships.  Or, gain an advantage another way: I killed Luke handily, twice, with Defenders sporting Outmaneuver.  Luke's ability does a lot less when he's rolling only one Agility die.

I meant counters to Force. Sure you can still burn them with fire, but you can't really stop the Force right? So indirect, the counter has to be that they cost a lot of points, so non Force lists can bring more ships/firepower to wear them down.

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Just now, westiebestie said:

I meant counters to Force. Sure you can still burn them with fire, but you can't really stop the Force right? So indirect, the counter has to be that they cost a lot of points, so non Force lists can bring more ships/firepower to wear them down.

Well, that's kind of obvious - it's already there.  In the rules.

 

what are you actually looking for then?

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8 minutes ago, Bad Idea Comics said:

Well, that's kind of obvious - it's already there.  In the rules.

 

what are you actually looking for then?

Opinions, on a mechanic breaking mechanics. :)

And, if you think some kind of counter is needed or not.

Edited by westiebestie

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Just now, westiebestie said:

Opinions, on a mechanic breaking mechanics. :)

X-Wing is an exception based ruleset. 

Every ability and upgrade breaks a mechanic or rule. You can't have more than one target lock... Unless you're Redline or taking an R3

If you land on an asteroid, you roll an attack die and take any damage... Unless you're Dash. 

You can only perform one attack in the engagement phase... Unless you're Corran or taking any upgrade that gives you a bonus attack. 

I'm not sure what the issue is. 

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There are specific counters:

- Tractor beam and outmanoeuver: the force is fine to modify dice, but if your defensive dice pool is suddenly reduced then it won't matter how many force points you have.  Tractor beam has the added advantage of possibly landing the opponent on a rock, costing an action in some cases and forcing him to burn through the force pool a lot more quickly.

- Sense/Informant/cassiant and ability to change your manoeuver like seasoned navigator: your opponent has the force to modify and do lots of cool stuff.  Great for him, but if he can't get you in arc or you can force the bump through nice intel gathering, it won't matter and all those points will be for nothing.

- Proximity mines do not care how much force you have.  They will still blow you up.

- Stress mechanics, because if your opponent is forced to do blue manoeuvers then he might not be where he needs to be to shoot.

That's what comes to mind at the moment.

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1 minute ago, westiebestie said:

Opinions, on a mechanic breaking mechanics. :)

And, if you think some kind of counter is needed or not.

To be fair, all the pilot mechanics break some sort of other game mechanic. So long as there's an appropriate points premium over non-force users, and the force ability takes the place of the regular pilot talent slot, I think things are pretty balanced.

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1 hour ago, JasonCole said:

To be fair, all the pilot mechanics break some sort of other game mechanic. So long as there's an appropriate points premium over non-force users, and the force ability takes the place of the regular pilot talent slot, I think things are pretty balanced.

Exactly this. So often when people complain about an ability they don't like, they reference it breaking game mechanics. But that's the whole point of an upgrade or pilot ability - to give you an ability you couldn't normally do within the mechanics of the game. It's not inherently a bad thing (of course there are badly designed cards, but they're not bad because they break a core mechanic, they're bad because they break a core mechanic in a bad way, or break a mechanic that shouldn't be broken, etc). 

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1 hour ago, JasonCole said:

To be fair, all the pilot mechanics break some sort of other game mechanic. So long as there's an appropriate points premium over non-force users, and the force ability takes the place of the regular pilot talent slot, I think things are pretty balanced.

To that point, Luke is already 10 points more than Wedge, a higher I pilot in the same ship with a great ability, and 14 points more than the X-wing's other I5 pilot, Thane, who also has a pretty solid ability. Maybe they'll decide he's not paying enough of a premium at some point but he's already definitely paying for what he gets.

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Good flying is a great counter.

Vader starts out with 3 force, but only regenerates 1 per turn. So "force" him to spend his force. He doesnt want to use Supernatural Reflexes to barrel roll, but will if a block or a dangerous arc is threatening him. That is one force point right there. Now if he wants his double token stack, he has to focus and lock and waste another focus.

For Luke. If you toss 3 attack dice with a focus versus Luke's 2 green with a force charge, you are still expected to do 1.127dmg, which is just a tad less than attacking a reinforced auzituck (1.19). So just keep attacking Luke.

A disadvantage of force users is that they dont have access to talent slot, so Luke cannot take Elusive or Lone Wolf. Vader cant take Juke or ruthless, etc.

I think a cool upgrade would be Sith Holocron that would cause 1 stress for each force charge spent by an enemy ship at range 0-1. Could be an illicit slot, for scum counters to force users. Have like 2 or 3 charges on it to spend.

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