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smauel

Tie Defender Cost? Why So Much??

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Not sure where to post this, had another user recommend to post here.

What in the world happened with the Tie Defender in 2nd Edition? It is one of the most expensive ships in the game now and seems way over priced for a small ship.  And don't say we added the boost ability.  The T-65 got the Tallon Roll and other move benefits, plus it has the same attack base and hit points and costs nearly half what a defender costs.  Other ships got similar upgrades without the price jump so this one doesn't make sense.

Heck you can even get a Ghost now for less then most of the Defenders.  4 Attacks and 14 hits with a turret on the Ghost, seems insane to price the Ghost that cheap when you compare it to a Defender.  You would have to make 4 perfect passes on the Ghost at Range 1 with a Defender and roll 100% hits to take it out, all while avoiding hits from the Ghost to stay alive.  Making it more real, you would really need to make 8 - 10 passes at the Ghost to take it out, all while it is throwing 4 to 5 dice minimum at you each time you are in its arc which with turrets is pretty easy to do.

Seems like most ship's cost simply doubled in 2.0 to focus on upgrades, but the Defenders went by 25 - 30% to where you can't put more than two of them on the board.  I know the focus is on flying now which I love and maybe that is the thinking, the Defender is so maneuverable that it should cost more because you can arc dodge better.  Seems like FFG designers took the same course with the Defenders as you did the E-Wing in V1, awesome ship but way over priced.  The problem is there is not much to fill the gap on the Empire's side like the T-65 on the Rebel side. 

This cost feels way unbalanced to the other ships that are in the same category in my opinion.  It is almost like FFG designers want to force empire pilots to fly swarms again.  The Defender used to be my favorite ship to fly and hoping that this gets adjusted in the app, right now it is out gunned consistently in each fight.  As it sits now flying two Defenders against 4 or 5 Rebel ships, or two Ghosts or two Shadow Casters doesn't bode well for the Empire.

Edited by smauel

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The defender is one of the few ships in the game with ability to get focus+evade with 3 green dice. Few ships get that kind of defensive mods. And with 5 hit points to back that up, it's really strong. With the reduced offensive output in second edition, few ships would have a chance against a defender 1v1.

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Its a dang beast thats why its so expensive.

I was skeptical about its cost at first but i ran it a few times and holy bejebus they are rude. They arent foolproof//almighty i-win-button good, but theyre pretty dang lethal. Brath is actually a major threat now, which is weird to say since he was easily the WORST defender in 1.0 lol

In 2.0 the base price for everything doubled to allow a wider spread of costs (so we avoid this 3cost upgrade too cheap, but at 4 its worthless problem). Defenders are one of the very few that got flatout buffed all around.

In 1.0 Ryad was base 34pts, in 2.0 she's 86 (2.54x more expensive). Lets look at the differences:

1) x7 ability w/o the loss of cannon/missile and can still get it if you hit a rock
2) +1 shield
3) 1banks are blue now
4) Boost and Evade are built into the ship now
5) Sensor slot

What did she lose?

1) Stress-clearing kturns (which needed to be cut down lets be honest)
2) Mod slot (which in 2.0, big deal)
3) No access to cannon doubletap at all due to baked in x7 ability (meh)

So lets say the x7 title in 1.0 was 0pts instead of -2 since it no longer removes slots and you still get it if you hit a rock.
Add a shield upgrade and engine upgrade, +8pts
In 1.0 she'd be 42pts, which is only 1pt off from being just flat double cost for 2.0 That cost difference can easily be ignored due to sensor slot/evade action/1bank blues

She's priced about right.

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TIE Defender costs the same as it did in 1e.

PS 1 Delta plus an Engine Upgrade plus a Shield Upgrade in 1e was 28 + 4 + 4 = 36.  Converting to a 200 point scale, 36*2 = 72.

So the 2e TIE Defender pays a 'tax' of having to buy a shield upgrade and an engine upgrade.  Personally, I think this added functionality (which also includes blue 1 banks, a Sensor slot, and usable missile and cannon slots) is worth the tax.

//

The real question is why does an E-Wing cost so much?  By statline (ignoring actions for the moment), it ought to be like 5-8 points more expensive than an X-Wing.  Dials are close enough to not really demand a change in price.  But the E-Wing is 20 points more expensive than an X-Wing.  Ought to be like 10.

Edited by theBitterFig

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13 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Its a dang beast thats why its so expensive.

[...]

In 1.0 Ryad was base 34pts, in 2.0 she's 86 (2.54x more expensive). Lets look at the differences:

[...]

She's priced about right.

Countess Ryad also got an effective Pilot Skill/Initiative upgrade.  2e 4 is equivalent to about 1e 6 or 7, so it's like she got Veteran Instincts tossed in, too.

Edited by theBitterFig

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33 minutes ago, smauel said:

Not sure where to post this, had another user recommend to post here.

What in the world happened with the Tie Defender in 2nd Edition? It is one of the most expensive ships in the game now and seems way over priced for a small ship.  And don't say we added the boost ability.  The T-65 got the Tallon Roll and other move benefits, plus it has the same attack base and hit points and costs nearly half what a defender costs.  Other ships got similar upgrades without the price jump so this one doesn't make sense.

Heck you can even get a Ghost now for less then most of the Defenders.  4 Attacks and 14 hits with a turret on the Ghost, seems insane to price the Ghost that cheap when you compare it to a Defender.  You would have to make 4 perfect passes on the Ghost at Range 1 with a Defender and roll 100% hits to take it out, all while avoiding hits from the Ghost to stay alive.  Making it more real, you would really need to make 8 - 10 passes at the Ghost to take it out, all while it is throwing 4 to 5 dice minimum at you each time you are in its arc which with turrets is pretty easy to do.

Seems like most ship's cost simply doubled in 2.0 to focus on upgrades, but the Defenders went by 25 - 30% to where you can't put more than two of them on the board.  I know the focus is on flying now which I love and maybe that is the thinking, the Defender is so maneuverable that it should cost more because you can arc dodge better.  Seems like FFG designers took the same course with the Defenders as you did the E-Wing in V1, awesome ship but way over priced.  The problem is there is not much to fill the gap on the Empire's side like the T-65 on the Rebel side. 

This cost feels way unbalanced to the other ships that are in the same category in my opinion.  It is almost like FFG designers want to force empire pilots to fly swarms again.  The Defender used to be my favorite ship to fly and hoping that this gets adjusted in the app, right now it is out gunned consistently in each fight.  As it sits now flying two Defenders against 4 or 5 Rebel ships, or two Ghosts or two Shadow Casters doesn't bode well for the Empire.

It is expensive because it doesn't die when you shoot at it; it will rarely even take hits if its in a killbox due to 3 evades + focus + evade. And this is even if you ever catch it in multiple arcs; advanced sensors makes this not a likely possibility. You have to pay out of the keester to fly something like this in 2.0 because if it wasn't expensive, there would be mathematically no reason not to take it like T H I C C Miranda in 1.0. It's also good because you can trade with your other ships and then points fortress with it.

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7 hp

3 red dice

3 green dice

White K turns

Focus Evade every turn unless blocked or Old Td.

Access to Advanced Sensors or FCS 

Great Pilot Abilities

High Initiative 4-5

Great Dial including a 5 forward and 1 hard turns!

Access to Missiles and Cannons

If anything they might be underpriced...

Please try this:

Whisper Juke

Rex Juke

Deathrain Traj Sim Proton Barrage

I assure you its not over priced.

Edited by Boom Owl

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19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

hmm, guess you could say that since she was 5 before which was pretty much dead-center of the range and now shes technically above middle

Just seems to me that most of the PS 5s went down to Init 3 (Biggs, Lowhh, Sabine, Leebo, Karsabi, Krassis Trelix, Latts Razzi), and a lot of the other Init 4s used to be PS 6s and 7s (Echo, Vynder, Rhymer, Jonus, Turr Phenir, Garven, Jek, Wullffwarro, Deathrain, Kad Solus, Viktor Hel, Graz).

*e*

In general, 1~1, 2~(2-3), 3~(4-5), 4~(6-7), 5~8, 6~9.  There's a lot of ships which break that pattern, but I think it's roughly the equivalents.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Its the only tokenstacking ship that does that without any real cost left. You need to really focus it down hard. It won't take hits if you try to shoot it once per round. It's super good. Defender vs Ghost is not even close.

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1 hour ago, smauel said:

Heck you can even get a Ghost now for less then most of the Defenders.  4 Attacks and 14 hits with a turret on the Ghost, seems insane to price the Ghost that cheap when you compare it to a Defender.  You would have to make 4 perfect passes on the Ghost at Range 1 with a Defender and roll 100% hits to take it out, all while avoiding hits from the Ghost to stay alive.  Making it more real, you would really need to make 8 - 10 passes at the Ghost to take it out, all while it is throwing 4 to 5 dice minimum at you each time you are in its arc which with turrets is pretty easy to do.

To approach this from the other side:

Ghosts got nerfed HARD in the loss of the system slot.  It provided a huge amount of power to 1e Ghosts.  Accuracy Corrector or Fire Control System gave you all the offensive dice mods you needed, so you'd be fine taking red moves and defensive actions.  Sensor Jammer was a massively powerful defensive upgrade on Maul/Ezra ghosts.  Turrets took a nerf, too.  Cheap VCX lost Autoblaster with uncancellable hits.  Expensive title Ghosts lost Twin Laser Turret, which provided a lot more offensive power.  A pea-shooter like a Dorsal turret will bounce off a Defender most of the time.

The loss of HP is balanced by the change from Evade to Reinforce, but it was the dirt-cheap dice mods which gave the 1e Ghost so much of it's strength, IMHO, and all the dirt cheap dice mods the Ghost used to have are gone.

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1 hour ago, player2422845 said:

It stats recreat the idea of a stat of the art Starfighter. It does everything except coffe. On the table, it chew in a vcx with ease and joust like no one. I find the price right.

 

Yours doesn't do coffee?

*sips the Ryad special mountain blend*

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28 minutes ago, Okapi said:

The Defender seems more or less perfectly priced. There is no ship in the game that can beat Rexler Brath or Countess Ryad one on one, and even a Delta can take on most aces and win.

I think phantoms can be good competition  to defenders since they can have offensive and defensive mods as well, and decloaking gives them good horizontal movement and with a crew slot like Vader that can be free damage as well.

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I've been ranting about Defenders for a while now - they're amazing ships.  Double Defenders are absolutely a thing.  Brath and Ryad with Advanced Sensors and Outmaneuver are just vicious.  Point values seem spot-on.

 

My Defenders don't do coffee, but they give me a ride to my local Starbucks...

Edited by Bad Idea Comics

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I'm willing to complain about costs, but only in the 3-6 point range reduction. Rexler is priced OK, but the other named pilots need to go down in cost. It doesn't make sense that a naked Vessery should cost the same as Rexler with Juke (especially when Rexler has a wonderful ability and a higher initiative). Putting a defender in your squad means you are just going to have to make due with 3 ships (unless you TIE swarm the rest). Even then, I've had to run the defenders with next to no upgrades. It really does seem a waste of all of those upgrade slots. 

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