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awp832

City of Archives Player Cards Review

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Time for another first look.  I havent had much of a chance to play with these, so first thoughts:
 

M1918 BAR:  Well, this weapon costs exactly the same amount in resource cost and XP as the shotgun, so I can't help but compare the two.  The BAR is an interesting weapon, and could be good for heavy damage on a boss,  but it's not very good as a "main" weapon.  Things that add a set amount of ammo (extra ammo, venturer...)  are much less useful on the BAR compared with the shotgun due to the high ammo consumption of the BAR.   Contraband is still pretty nice though, allowing for 3 shots at maximum power.  Unfortunately, I think the Shotgun is just more viable on most characters.    The best character to use this weapon IMO is probably Leo Anderson, because of his access to Contraband and Sleight of Hand.   Zoey could pull out the same tricks of course, but it would take some of her valuable out-of-faction card slots.  I could definitely see myself taking a "one-of" of the BAR for sleight-of-hand boss killing.  2.5/5   useful in the right build,  but for most characters weaker than the shotgun.

Ancient Stone (Knowledge of the Elders):    Ah, we finally see the Ancient Stone.    Lets just say up front that this requires a huge amount of work on the part of your investigator just to include in your deck.  Like other "unidentified" seeker items, you have to upgrade from the lesser version of this card,  but unlike a Strange Solution or Archaic Glyphs, the basic Ancient Stone costs 1 xp.   Ouch.   That means the absolute earliest you can include this card in your deck is scenario 3 because you'll need to first get an experience (scenario 1) and then translate (ideally scenario 2) before you can upgrade.  It also means this card basically costs 5 XP, instead of the 4 shown, because you'll have to purchase the Unidentified version first.  THEN the number of secrets on this card is dependent on how high the shroud value was.   You can have more secrets here if you passed a harder check for the Unidentified version.  But that, of course, won't be easy.  Because I feel its relevant, I'm going to include some minor spoilers from forgotten age below the spoiler tag:
 

 

Supposing you want to identify the stone in scenario 2 of Forgotten age, the location shrouds range from 2-5, giving you anywhere from 5-8 secrets.   However I tend to find this scenario is extremely time sensitive, and it might be very difficult to complete your objectives as well as identify the stone, especially if you are trying for a large amount of secrets.  If you wanted to wait until scenario 3, your shrouds range from 1-4,  but again, this delays the amount of scenarios you can use the Ancient Stone in, making the earliest possible use scenario 4 if you decide to wait.



Ok,  so I hope I have established that it is very, very hard to get this item.   So, is it worth it?   I'm going to have to say probably not.  Typically you only draw 1 card at a time, meaning you can only deal 1 damage at a time.   Some combos with other seeker cards that draw, particularly Cryptic Research because it is Fast and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.   But Cryptic research is another 4 xp on top of what you have already spent.  If you want a combat option for your Seeker,  Strange Solution (acidic ichor) is probably better for damage on Normal or Easy mode where the chaos bag isnt too brutal, cheaper in terms of xp, easier to get, and doesnt take a hand slot.  I've got a Plan! suffices for those who are stingy on XP.  Those of us who play on hard salivate over testless damage, I know....  but most of your card draw will incur an AoO from any monsters you are engaged with, which you dont want to take.   I'm really, really sad to say that this just isn't very good.    1.5/5   I really wanted more out of this.

Ancient Stone (Minds in Harmony):  You can feel free to insert all the comments on the Knowledge of the Elders variant about how outrageous this is to get.    So the only difference is the effect.  So... this is just a sanity heal.   Potentially it is rather a lot of sanity heal, so that's nice.  It's also not nearly as annoying to activate, since you can drip heal your sanity over multiple turns when you draw your card for the round.  Seekers probably dont really need this for themselves though, due to the extremely high amount of sanity soak allies and other cards like Logical Reasoning that they can play.   Your friends will like you though.  It's an okay support card.  2/5  Better, but still more trouble than it's worth.

Slip Away:   The only card that does not cost XP in this pack.  You add your Books to evasion, and if you win by 2 you can stop a non-elite from readying.    A decent way to stall out a monster for a while,  but I'm skeptical this is worth the 2 cost.   2/5   I doubt it.

Pay Day:  Well,  because this is rogue the chances you will get at least 4 resources off of this are pretty high.   Yes, there are ways you can stack actions and theoretically make it ridiculous, but that probably wont happen most of the time.   And you really have to ask yourself;    is action comboing  in this way really the best way for my rogue to make money?  Probably not.   Still,  I think this is very playable if you get 4 resources out of it.   3/5   Seems ok.

Sacrifice:  I love the flavor of this card, and it's effect could be pretty cool.   There are lots of times when a mystic has stuff hanging around that they can't use, and maybe moreover its a nice way to eliminate Doom on a card that you have.   You can sacrifice the Arcane Initiate or Alyssa or David Renfeld if the cost of keeping them around gets too high, and you can get a nice bonus while you're at it.  3.5/5  I like it, and sure to get better.

Crystalline Elder Sign:  Ah yes, another Mystic relic that I am not going to use.    As a mystic, the only stat that really matters to you is Willpower, that's the whole point of being a mystic in the first place.    So why am I taking this, sealing a good token, and paying XP for it when I could just have a holy rosary?   I'm not.    1/5  lame.

On Your Own:   This is certainly the card in this pack that has me most excited.   I think this is a fantastically thematic nice little card.  The issue being that there arent that many survivor events that you are going to want to reduce by 2 cost all the time.  Not enough to stack a deck with an make this worth giving up your chance at allies.   I think this card is going to be very fun and special later down the line.   But maybe not right now.   3/5  Investing for the future!!!!




As always, feel free to explain why you agree/disagree, and if you've played with any of these cards and how they worked out for you.

Edited by awp832

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both Ancient Stones only cost 4, as you're upgrading from a Level 1 card to a Level 4 card, so you're just paying the difference. They're both definitely cards that you'd want to build your deck around, as they're combo pieces, unlike the Strange Solutions. Also, they can't be messed up by a bad draw from the Chaos bag, meaning it works better on higher fight value enemies(usually boss monsters). There are definitely a lot of builds where Strange Solution would be considered inferior, especially as Strength is harder for Seekers to boost. You can also just use this on an enemy engaged with someone else, ignoring the AoO issue. the sanity healing one is just for Carolyn mostly. A lot of this packs cards are for certain Investigators by the looks of it.

For example Crystalline Elder Sign is good for Lola and Ursula, as well as a support Jim build. I agree it's not good for the Agnes or Akachi though.

Pay Day, I think could see some play in Skids, mainly in multiplayer games where Lone Wolf isn't great, as he needs to make sure he has resources for his ability, as well as paying his Hospital Debts. Other than that, it probably needs the right Investigator for it. 

I agree with the rest though. I tried Slip Away, and it did come in useful, although I'm not sure I'd keep it in once I start spending XP

Edited by retrodaniel

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I just put two Slip Aways in my Finn deck, but that's because I think he's uniquely suited to really taking advantage of the card since he has 4 in both stats, making the win by 2 condition more likely than not. combine that with his free Evade action in a turn and it seems like a fantastic option for him. I can see it not being as strong for other rogues.

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44 minutes ago, retrodaniel said:

 

both Ancient Stones only cost 4, as you're upgrading from a Level 1 card to a Level 4 card, so you're just paying the difference.

true enough, my mistake.   I still think they're pretty poor cards though.

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BAR:  There are things I like about the BAR that the Shotgun does not have.  Sure you can use it for a +5 attack for 5 damage to take on a boss.  You can probably even do it easier than if used the shotgun (shotgun only gives a +3 and you need to succeed by 5 to do 5 damage while you just need to hit even to get the damage from the BAR).

The big issue is when a bunch of lower power enemies come out and now you are stuck using a shotgun ammo to take out a 2-health enemy, it kills me.  The BAR helps in this area.  Need 3 damage to take an enemy out?  Use 3 ammo.  Need 2?  Use 2.  It might just be me but the action efficient is pretty great on this card, one shot, one kill.  Taking out your normal 2 health enemies, you get 4 shots.  I think the shotgun is best suited for taking out bosses while the BAR is more for normal enemy hunting.  I also will still go with the Shotgun on Mark every time.

Ancient Stone:  Actionless, near free damage dealing is really good especially since its at your location instead of engaged.  Combo with Cryptic Research, Tooth of Etzil, Eureka on an evade.  With Ursula you can use Unearth the Ancients and/or Jake.  You can also use it with the core neutral skills well.  In multi player, there are a lot of shenanigans you can do with it, supporting a Guardian to take out a 3 health enemy in 1 action.  Plus, Aloof can be really annoying and an action eater, this helps with that a lot.

As far as the sanity healing stone, I think its the most efficient sanity healing card in the game.  5-7 sanity over multiple turns for 1 action and 2 resources.  Does eat up a hand slot which isn't great.  Caroline likes it.  If you have a teammate that struggles with Sanity like Guardians, Skids or Agnes or multiples of that, this is good.

All in all Ancient Stone depends on the composition of your group.

Slip Away: is a Finn card (there are a lot of those) and works well.  Its a Rogue version of Bait and Switch and I love that card versus Hunters (and non Hunters).

Pay Day:  In a deck built around lots of extra actions, its good.  Outside of that, there are so many other options Rogues have for resource generation that I am not seeing it.  Maybe Wendy would like it since its an event?  My Wendy decks are pretty tight these days and I don't know what I would squeeze out.  That being said, worst case is that for 1xp you spend an action to get 3 resources.  Emergency Cache works better in most decks.  Now EC and PD combined may be useful.

Sacrifice:  I didn't even think about using it to get rid of doom.  That's great.  Mystics need resources and card draw so this is a pretty good deal.  Kind of a dead card for a few turns if you are stuck with one for your opening draw but I can say that about a lot of cards.

Crystalline Elder Sign:  Its an odd card for sure.  If a investigator just cares about Will, why bother.  That being said, Matteo, Jim and Ursula care about more than about Will.  Sealing the +1 is a big deal since it increases the odds of pulling other tokens.  I would never seal an Elder Sign.  In a seal heavy deck, this can be pretty cool since the other seals you have largely negate its draw back.  I am thinking this is a Mateo deal.  My biggest concern is why not just spend 2 more XP and get the Key.

On Your Own:  This is a cool card that opens up a lot of options in deck building.  Even using it on 1 cost events is worth it.  Zero is a magic cost in this game.  I struggle with no Allies since Survivor has so many good ones.  The biggest problem I see is that before you get it out you will be struggling with resources while afterwards you will be on easy street.  As a result, you will need to have a fair amount of resource generation in your deck prior to it coming out and after it comes out you will need something to spend resources on (Skill Talents most likely).  This card is not a card that you throw in but rather a card that you have to carefully craft your deck around.  Running the list:

  • Wendy:  Probably could pull it off since she tends to be so event heavy.  That being said, Pete is really good on her; +1 Agility and Will helps, to say nothing of the sanity soak helping her deal with her weakness.  That being said, having a discard pile full of zero cost events can be super great, especially the fast ones.  Example, evade, commit Close Call for a +1 Agility, play it from your discard afterwards to get rid of the enemy.
  • Pete:  This could work, but I have seen Pete do amazing things with Aquinah and Sylvestre in play (action-less enemy kills that deal him no damage/horror).  Pete is really flexible though so I could see getting it to work with him.  I can see some combos with Dark Horse here even though it first appears anti-synergistic.
  • William:  I think Lebranch is just to important to fuel his ability to give up the slot.  Plus he really likes assets not events.
  • Calvin: I feel as if this allows us to build Calvin in a different way that allows us to use events more effectively to keep a red-lined Calvin alive rather than relying on Allies.  I will say as survivor cards are released for this cycle, I am seeing how you can transform a 0XP Calvin deck with cards that give you damage into an effective trauma heavy, high XP deck that keeps him going on when he is on the edge.

 

Edited by Jobu

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Crystalline Elder Sign:   I hadn't really thought about this for Ursula.   It's definitely much better for her than it is for anyone else, IMO.  Not bad for her at all.  This is why I like these threads =p.

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M1918 BAR: I think this is a pretty worthy addition to the high exp weapons, and is a viable alternative to shotgun/lightning gun. The benefits of the card are its high flexibility and the ability to tailor your attack to the enemy (nothing sadder than having to use a Lightning Gun or Shotgun shot to deal with a 2/2/2 ghoul on your seeker). It makes Contraband worthwhile, which both Zoey and Leo can pick up. The major draw to me is that you can pretty much guarantee that you're killing whatever you're shooting at (aside from high HP bosses), assuming the chaos bag doesn't mess up your plans - the previous options for dealing with 4+ health enemies either relied on gambling on a good result with the Shotgun or using extra resources.

The drawbacks are that flexibility can also be a downside, if you only need low damage your accuracy can take a hit (e.g. for a 2 health enemy, you're spending 2 ammo or 1/4 of your ammo pool to attack at +2, which is the same as a .45 Automatic (2) for half the xp, 1 fewer resource, extra bonus, only one hand). It can also run out of ammo really quickly, and normal reloading cards like Extra Ammunition, Custom Ammunition and Venturer are much less efficient for this card, because Extra Ammunition is ony one more shot for 3 damage, whereas for a Lightning Gun it gives you 3 shots at 3 damage - and running out of ammo and not being able to effectively extend its usability is a real drawback on a card with such a high investment in terms of resources, hand slots and exp. Outside of bosses, you don't really need that 5 damage ceiling very often and where you do, there's options like Vicious Blow and Beat Cop to hit numbers above 3. On higher difficulties you may still struggle to get reliable accuracy for some guardians against tougher enemies, without blowing loads of ammunition for the privilege, whereas Lightning Gun gives you that +5 to hit all the time. It also makes things like Reliable a bit unappealing because of the low ammunition.

My conclusion is essentially that Leo absolutely wants to consider this as his main option if he isn't concentrating on Switchblade (2), it works really well with rogue stuff like Contraband and Sleight of Hand and it's a nice single-card solution for good weapons, enabling him to concentrate on other things in his deck (like allies!). The same applies for Zoey to an extent, especially since she can easily afford it all, but I probably would not consider it as my go-to option on her as she concentrates more strongly on tailoring a significant part of her deck to killing stuff, and gets more use out of direct damage. Mark may not want to use it as it's expensive and only handles a small number of enemies before running out of ammunition, and he already has high flexibility and can make the most out of the Shotgun, but his high Combat score does reduce the issue of wanting to burn more ammo than needed to ensure you hit. Roland should strongly consider it if the team composition pushes him into a primary combat role, but otherwise he should stay away and concentrate on one-handed weapons as he also needs his hand slots for investigation.

Art is pretty cool - as with Lightning Gun, it's more than just a picture of a weapon, it gives you a nice feel of the preparations taken by the investigator before they go on their investigation, which is a really Guardian feeling.

 

Ancient Stone: The Knowledge of the Elders version is pretty expensive in terms of time and effort to get there. It combos nicely with other sources of card draw, though of course you then have a multi-card combo in order to get it to do anything. It's not as attractive than the other Seeker means of dealing with enemies, as I can see you being stuck having to either draw and provoke AoO or just wait out your turn or try evading - whereas the evade Glyphs and the Acidic Ichor Solution are both pretty direct means of dealing with enemies, and are a lot less arduous to get into your deck. It also takes up a hand slot, which is pretty significant as you'd want to get it out ahead of trouble and keep it in play for a while. You can do some fun shenanigans with this card though, and if we ever get a seeker-secondary-guardian a full direct damage build (Beat Cop, Guard Dog, Ancient Stone, Mano a Mano, Dynamite Blast, etc.) could be excellent fun. It also gets stronger on higher difficulties as the 6 base combat on Acidic Ichor isn't all that reliable on Hard/Expert, and testless damage is great when the chaos bag is nasty. I think it's particularly good for Ursula as she's more likely to be able to evade and then draw cards to poke an enemy to death. Otherwise I just don't see myself bothering to put in the effort in terms of exp and identification compared to Archaic Glyphs/Strange Solution. Definitely going to try it out, though.

The Minds in Harmony version is an odd one. For most people I can only see using it if there's been a lot of mental trauma going around, or the rest of the team is low on will and sanity, as Seekers tend to have decent Willpower and Sanity stats already and it's far easier to just get some soak up (like, say, a sacrificial Art Student). It is, however, fantastic for Carolyn Fern. She can use Shrewd Analysis to upgrade 2 copies for the price of 1, as it's the only option she has access to so there's no random chance, and for her it becomes absolutely fantastic - turning card draw into card draw, healing and resource gain is just such a strong upgrade. Definitely something for her to strive for, especially as she isn't going to be identifying the Solution and Glyphs, and it would probably end up being the only actual Sanity healing card (rather than cards that heal sanity but not as a means of actually healing horror off investigators, like Peter S or St Hubert's Key) she'll need in the long run, aside from Moment of Respite to heal up Foolishness. The problem of course is that it'll cost her 5 exp (you won't get refunded the 1 exp from the second, free copy of Ancient Stone) and she already has loads of things to spend her exp on. Carolyn is by far my favourite investigator so I'm happy for her to have more toys to choose from.

Art is...it's a stone. It's a nice stone. But it's a stone. Not sure what else there is to say.

 

Slip Away: Definitely a Finn card. Maybe a card for Wendy as well. It's pretty great all told, evade lasting a full extra round can completely neutralise an enemy, and rogues specialise in hitting those +2 above success thresholds. The other people who can take it probably don't want it - Skids is evading for base 7 as well, but it contradicts his Guardian secondary role. Don't think Jenny really wants it as she has the flexibility to go after killing things, and Sefina definitely doesn't want it. Obviously on Skids and Jenny it's something to consider in The Forgotten Age, where evasion becomes a lot more useful, and of course rogues can use Adaptable to switch it in or out of their decks depending on whether they need it for a scenario. Theme-wise I would have liked an effect that actually did something to use the Intellect stat - as it stands I'm not sure why slipping away (and why exhausting an enemy for longer) is a particularly Intellect/Investigation kind of effect. It doesn't really gel for me in that way.

Same with the art - it's nice art but I would have liked something where the evader is more clearly using their intelligence to help get away.

 

Pay Day: I started um-ing and ah-ing about whether this card is worth using when I first saw it - then I saw that it costs exp! This seems too weak an effect to spend exp on. It does work a bit better with Fence as it has that Illicit keyword, but I don't think that's enough to save it. It's also a delayed payoff - you pretty much always want to use this as your last action, which means you won't be able to use the resources until next turn. Imagine being Finn, having, say, Lola Santiago and Pay Day in your hand and wanting to do some clue gathering, and only having 1 resource - your turn would be Investigate at base stat until you've used up all but one action, then Pay Day, having to wait to play Lola next turn before you can use her bonuses (and pass up the chance to use her Fast triggered ability this round). Then imagine if instead of Pay Day, you had Emergency Cache in your hand - and how much better that would be for you. Obviously that's a contrived scenario but it's just one example of the ways in which the delay can really be annoying. And this from a card you're spending exp on! Sure, if you're using loads of actions it gets better (e.g. if you have Leo De Luca it becomes 1 resource better - but then you should just spend the 1 exp to get the cheaper version of Leo and cut out the middle-man), but it's even more unreliable because you're counting on getting your action combo set up - and if you have done that you're already in a strong position. You can drool over playing this for a dozen resources after an utterly absurd turn with stuff like double or nothing quick thinking combos, but wouldn't you rather have a card give you the resources to get your combo off in the first place? And the card is sitting dead in your hand until you get your combo off, further delaying the payoff.  Finn gets an extra boost because of his free evade, of course, and he can't get level 4 Hot Streak, but I don't think it saves the card. Rogues have great resource generation already and I really don't see this being necessary on top of all of those, especially given its downsides. I value reliability and consistency much higher than theoretical maximum payoff, so I say save up for better resource cards instead.

Art is pretty awesome though, I love the safecracking, "Heist went off as planned!" theme.

 

Sacrifice: From a 1 exp resource card I dislike to one that I love. This card is awesome. You can sacrifice a spell that's run out of charges to get you the cards and resources to get back in the game. You can sacrifice Arcane Initiate or David Renfield to avoid triggering the agenda this round, and get a huge benefit out of it. The flexibility is really nice. It probably doesn't replace Emergency Cache (unless you are running a doom-heavy build and you don't need Sacrifice and Cache and Uncage the Soul, but all mystics can probably always use more resources), but it probably does replace Moonlight Ritual (though Sacrifice doesn't work on Blood Pact). Mystics absolutely need resources and cards and this helps bridge that gap and with absolutely great flavour. Probably a bit weaker on Akachi because her unique asset lets her reuse spent spells and helps get resources, but she is pretty much locked just into Mystic cards so she will have lots of things to sacrifice (and she still wants resources and cards).

I love the art and the flavour text as well. Mystics have had some very interesting cards this cycle.

 

Crystalline Elder Sign: OK so maybe not all Mystic cards this cycle are amazing. This card would be an interesting thing to look into if it were 0 exp. For 3 exp, it's just bad. Seal mechanics in general vary in effectiveness highly depending on player number - mathematically this would be a bit beneficial in solo, in a vacuum, but in 4 player, denying the entire team a passing token (and maybe the actual Elder Sign) for +1 to all your stats is beyond awful. Also - mystics have 2 different 0-exp Accessory slot cards already that both already benefit your Willpower, which is the main stat mystics care about anyway! And those cards also give you sanity soak/healing! And it costs 3 resources to play so it's even more expensive than the Rosary! Ursula maybe could use this since she wants bonuses to Intellect and Agility as well, but does she want +1 to those stats enough to seal up +1/Elder Sign, and spend 6 exp, and use up the slot that could be Disc of Itzamna? Or you could get Relic Hunter to use this alongside the other Accessory slot cards - and then instead you're spending 9 exp for the privilege of denying your entire team their Elder Sign. Disclaimer: I mostly play 2 and 4 player. In case it wasn't clear - this card is terrible, no-one should take it.

Art isn't particularly good either, and the flavour text is non-descript.

 

On Your Own: This card isn't very good, basically. Like with Crystalline Elder Sign, you're spending 3 exp (or 6 to have 2 copies) for the privilege of having a huge penalty - in this case, not being able to use the fantastic Survivor allies available. An event-heavy build like Wendy could use it but Madame Lebranche helps with resources already. It exhausts so you can't even get the discount more than once a round, and you can't have more than one in play. It helps make Lucky slightly better alongside Fire Axe but that's hardly enough to recommend it - compare to attack cancellation and reflection, or resource generation and card draw, or bonuses to 2 stats and constant horror healing - all of which appear on allies that can also soak damage and horror. It also can't be used alongside Charisma as it turns off all your ally slots. I guess it helps with Will to Survive, Resourceful, True Survivor cycling, but I don't think it does enough to enable that combo as a reliable cornerstone of a deck as you'll still need to get like 5 resources together each time you wanna do the cycle (and that combo is so utterly dull). It also costs 2 resources and an action to play, so you need to get the full discount twice before it's giving you any benefit in the first place. If they print more cards that only work if you have no allies, this should work alongside those other cards and the lone survivor will be a fully functioning archetype but on its own, this doesn't offer enough. I like the thematics of the effect, though.

Art is fine but doesn't do that much for me, compare to the great art and theme on Cornered, for instance.

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BAR: I like this gun. In my experience there are 3 types of fighter: He who has limited fight potential and takes care of themselves. He who sweeps the map of any and all threats. He who kills the big-fry. Guardians typically are one of the latter two, with a machete they can kill all the lil enemies and with a Shotgun they murder a boss. The BAR bridges the gap between these two and lets you spend a bit of ammo to clear out a small foe and then turn around and snipe a boss. I don't agree that Extra ammo or custom ammo is wasted on the BAR, every spent charge is a point of damage, and depending on the scenario the extra ammo will turn into a lot of bases covered, Extra ammo + BAR in forgotten age is an entire extra dead 3hp enemy and those are very common in that campaign. The thing that makes BAR a good gun is that it's ammo is never wasted and it's very self-sufficient. One Build advice I can give with the BAR is that it actually fits nice in a gun themed deck with multiple XP guns, whether its an array of 2-hand guns or some BAR's + .45(2)'s.

 

Ancient stone, damage version: One thing about this upgrade is the fact that the original doesnt necessarily sit in your deck uselessly until completed, because the original is 1xp then you're not stuck with it until you complete your other stuff first or a scenario is coming up where you think you can get a large number of secrets. The reason this is important is because you can hold off gettign the stone until your deck has become prepared for it, by which I mean that you've gotten some cards like Cryptic research to trigger damage bursts off-of. The stone doesn't charm me (none of the work-intensive upgrades do) but it is obviously powerful. I see it as being far stronger in multiplayer where you can deal a lot of guaranteed damage by just standing next to a friend and drawing cards to kill their enemies. This card is a little janky but guaranteed testless damage always has a place.

Ancient stone, healing version: Tonnes of horror healing for the team is actually a superb effect and nowhere near as combo intensive as the damage version, all you do is stick close to a buddy and recover their sanity 1 horror at a time in the upkeep phase. I love it.

 

Slip away is a good effect, take care of a nuisance Hunter for 2 rounds. Characters with a combination of 3 and 4 (or 4 and 4) Intellect and Agility have a good chance to get the extra effect and even if you don't get the 2+ effect an evade is still a successful evade. The typical customer will be Finn, Wendy, Skidds and interestingly, Rex Murphy! The effect is a little specific but a 2 round buffer against something nasty (Boa, Poltergheist, Nightgaunt, you know the works) can be just as good as killing it.

I like Payday. With just Leo in play it generates 4 resources, Finn can get one extra in a round when he uses his ability. Frankly this is the baseline to judge the card by, the actions from Quick thinking or Ace in the hole are typically put into play when every action is needed to solve a problem so ending a round with Payday isn't a good measure of the card / good use of the -precious- extra actions. Payday is the perfect card to justify and include in a deck with Leo De Luca in it, I think Leo is too expensive to use typically but for 4 XP you can put Leo(1) and Payday in at the same time. Final note: Payday is'nt in my opinion a replacement to Emergency cache, it's a supplement to it, it's for use in decks with really steep cost curves that eat resources at tremendous pace. Good card.

 

Sacrifice: I don't see it. 1xp for an emergency cache that can draw cards is fair and all but there's already Uncage the soul, I'm not sure many Mystics need 6 econ-only cards. Besides, the requirement to discard an asset is fair, given that there should be plenty of used-up spells in a Mystics play area, but until you play and finish that spell asset Sacrifice is dead in your hand, the icons are mediocre too! Dead cards suck balls.

Crysalline Elder sign: Strictly worse then Holy Rosary for Agnes and Akachi, everybody else who actually uses some of their non-willpower stats can find uses for it. I did a little math on this thing and it's actually pretty good in Standard in a Duo or True solo game. The reason it's good in Standard is because stats of 3 or 4 are dramatically better there than in Hard and that there will always be a +1 in the bag. It's good in True-solo because your ability to flexibly beat every kind of test is dramatically more important. Obviously the question if sealing the elder sign is fine or not depends on your characters. The card is good in the right Campaign.

 

On your own: Funny, havent tried it. No opinion!

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I just want to say this on payday...and using the "click economy" which is NOT a good measure of a cards worth in this game, if you get 4 extra actions in a turn, very easy for rogues...Leo de luca with borrowed time,Finn base ability with leo de luca with 2 quick thinking, quick thinking with leo de luca with double or nothing, police badge with leo de luca with quick thinking... The list goes on and not everyone has those cards but all I am saying is if you get 4 extra actions in a turn and then play this last you basically spent one xp for a 4 xp hot streak, and you got to perform 6 actions as well, and the card doesn't even force you to play it only then, so if you are in a bind and need 3 resources you just drop it and its another emergency cache for only a single xp. to me what this card does is incredible and its stock will only grow as rogues continue to get more cards that grant them actions.  IMO this card is far better than people give it credit.

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4 hours ago, Starbreaker1 said:

  IMO this card is far better than people give it credit.

I respectfully disagree.

I'd consider Payday to be the 1 exp upgrade to Emergency Cache. Cache gives us money to spend on our turn, often at the starts of our turns, while Payday encourages us to wait as long as possible before playing it. It's money for next turn. I mean, that's fine for planning and setting up. It's even fine late game as just a Cache with a timing drawback, though with no icons that ship has probably sailed. I imagine that Payday only feels absolutely superior to Emergency Cache when someone is taking their fifth or later action. That way, a player can get 4+ resources on the second to last action, and spend some of it on their last action. Seems rare.

I think Payday's value completely breaks down when people get super combo-y with it. So, we have also breezed through our Ace in the Hole, Quick Thinking/Double or Nothing shenanigans in order to maximize our Payday, it begs the question, "I have a bajillion resources, so what now? Do I sit around and gear up? Why didn't I gear up before my action hero turn?" Looking for the glorious Payday combo might lead to suboptimal plays, like using extra action cards too early. Those super big multi action turns are best used late game when the Rogue has had the time to collect the combo pieces and they usually provide a giant burst of activity that slays the big bad or hoovers the many clues. So, we went bursty and essentially just beat the scenario. Why do we need all this cash now? Roleplaying? 

Edited by Iuchi Toshimo

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1 hour ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

I imagine that Payday only feels absolutely superior to Emergency Cache when someone is taking their fifth or later action. That way, a player can get 4+ resources on the second to last action, and spend some of it on their last action. Seems rare.

Payday ends your turn when you play it, so there isn't even an issue of "Do I use it now to have the resources to play now, or wait until the end of the turn to get a bigger payoff". So in essence it's even worse than you thought.

1 hour ago, Iuchi Toshimo said:

I think Payday's value completely breaks down when people get super combo-y with it. So, we have also breezed through our Ace in the Hole, Quick Thinking/Double or Nothing shenanigans in order to maximize our Payday, it begs the question, "I have a bajillion resources, so what now? Do I sit around and gear up? Why didn't I gear up before my action hero turn?" Looking for the glorious Payday combo might lead to suboptimal plays, like using extra action cards too early. Those super big multi action turns are best used late game when the Rogue has had the time to collect the combo pieces and they usually provide a giant burst of activity that slays the big bad or hoovers the many clues. So, we went bursty and essentially just beat the scenario. Why do we need all this cash now? Roleplaying? 

This is precisely the main issue with thinking about using this card with big action combos, and well-worded. Wouldn't you rather the card was something helping you achieve your big combos, not a card you need to draw and then sit uselessly in your hand while you assemble the combo without it?

There's a concept in Magic: The Gathering called Magical Christmas Land, where you look at a card and think of it purely in terms of its best possible payoff if you get the perfect game, rather than evaluating it in terms of its general utility in an average game where you have to respond to the problems of the game and respond effectively to threats. To me, Payday is an excellent example of this kind of flawed thinking. You can engineer a scenario where it gives you loads of resources after an epic combo turn - but wouldn't you rather use your cards and exp to give you tools that work well in other scenarios, or actually help you get that combo to work in the first place, or let make the most of all those actions? Between Emergency Cache, Lone Wolf, Hot Streak, "Watch This!" and resource gain tricks with Double or Nothing, there's enough resource cards available to rogue, which also have more flexibility and utility.

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I agree the super-combo is probably rare and arguably not worth it.   But I ask you:   If you can have a 4-resource generator that can only be played at the end of your turn, is that worth it for 1 xp?    I would say yes, a lot of times it is.    There have been plenty of times when I wish I could just have another Emergency Cache around, but max 2 per deck so... not happening.   And sure, there are other options for cash,  but 1 xp is cheap (compared to the likes of Hot Streak), and you can reap the benefits quickly, as opposed to playing something like Dario who will take a few turns to kick in.   

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I'm not sure why the timing on Payday is an issue.  Is Jenny's extra resource less valuable because you can only use it next turn?  How many times do you have a card you want to play early in your turn (like Emergency Cache) but can't because you drew an enemy?  Isn't it nice to have the money sitting around to pump a test during mythos?  It seems to be a wash, at best.

While I do agree that playing Payday for that 12-action turn is silly, bonus actions are a pretty core part of Rogue gameplay.  You should be able to get 4 resources out of it pretty much all the time, and more should be common.  It's also a card which will scale up as the rest of your deck does - when all you've got is Leo, or you're hoping for a Double or Nothing/Quick Thinking, it feels limited.  But later in a campaign when you've added Ace in the Hole, Borrowed Time, and upgraded the .41s, it's far less combo-tastic.  Seems solid enough for 1 XP.

 

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Payday also has an interesting use for everyone's least favorite Rogue.  It effectively recovers most of the cost of Skids' extra actions - start a turn with 8 resources, you get 6 actions for a net 1 resource cost.  Probably not enough to make Skids awesome all by itself, but it almost seems made for him as much as Slip Away is for Finn.

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Because one might consider a card that says:"Pay X Resources, you get X additional actions this turn" and only costs 1 XP a great card. (I know it is not quite the same since you have to pay more resources upfront). I think i might try this out

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Well lets do a little math.  Remember Skids ability is usable once per round.

I take my 3 actions, spend two resources to get a fourth and with that gain 4 resources.  Net 2 resources.  With four actions, that goes to 3 net.  With 6, that goes to 5.

Take what you want from that, I see it as kind of meh.

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To get more positive.  I think PayDay is meant for Finn (again).

Argument:

  • He can't take L4 Hot Streak.
  • He can natively take 4 actions in a turn if one of them is an Evade.
  • It's illicit so his special can fetch it.

These by themselves make it a workable option for him.

To get less positive, he has other options: L2 Pick pocketing, Burglary actually works on him, Emergency cache, Lone Wolf, L2 Hot Streak, Watch This, You Handle This One.

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3 hours ago, Jobu said:

Well lets do a little math.  Remember Skids ability is usable once per round.

I take my 3 actions, spend two resources to get a fourth and with that gain 4 resources.  Net 2 resources.  With four actions, that goes to 3 net.  With 6, that goes to 5.

Take what you want from that, I see it as kind of meh.

i totally overlooked that skids ability is only once per turn. meh indeed

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