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Kieransi

I disagree with FFG greatly on OP formats

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2 hours ago, Crit Happens said:

Have you thought about what you're saying?

Fewer options is something that I rarely associate with more interesting. There will still be best options, but since there is a much smaller pool of things to choose from, far more people would be playing the exact same thing.

TIE swarms, supernatural Vader, supernatural Luke. You're right, those options are far more interesting than what's available in extended format... 

Yes, I do think it is more interesting with limited options. You get to see the different metas develope and change as each new wave gets released.

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5 hours ago, Captain Weather said:

Like I said, I don't think there's an easy answer to the problem. I think right now the best response is to come at the issue with an open mind and try and be understanding rather than aggressively dismiss the other side (no matter what your view). 

 

I do think this bears repeating. Despite my objection to moving to the 2.0 only format, I do see and sympathize with the plight of newer players. There isn’t an easy answer, it’s just who gets the preverbial shaft.

I do believe that with the kind of player community support and sharing @Phelan Boots and @millertime059 have brought up might be the way to best way to move forward with the current situation. I will gladly lend a new player an upgrade or ship they want to fly. Be that on a casual night to see if they want to buy it or for a tournament. A new player might not have full excess to all the X-Wing toys, but older players with generous hearts can offer a helping hand with that.

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2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Instead of basically middle fingering older players, they should do events that simply deny various ships/upgrades for listbuilding.

The app has it built in for alternative formats so not like that'd be hard to do.

Myep, this is stuff you handle at a local level (where the new players actually come in, yeah?)

Excercise judgement, don't put down things they'll hate to play against (like spamned arcdodgers to just not let then shoot and pull tricks out your butt they couldn't prepare for) and keep encouraging them. You can certainly win games with minimum upgrades now, you don't have to hunt for scattered upgrades anymore

And if you feel they do, let them proxy

 

If you want your community to grow, you gotta put in the effort. It doesn't fall on the shoulders of everyone else, especially not those who'd rather use the things they've bought and are more interested in than the limited options of wave 1

Seriously, I cant play my **** imps in Second Edition format. Think fickle is gonna spam TIE Fighters? Better think again 

 

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4 hours ago, SOTL said:

Everyone here to dump on Second Edition format needs to remember you're only seeing about 25% of the format at present.  There's four more factions to come, an extra ship for the released factions, and new upgrades on Wave 2-3 for the existing ships.


Second Edition Format is going to be AWESOME.  I sincerely believe it's going to be more interesting, varied, skill-intensive and above all else FUN than Extended. It's already a lot of fun with some great Second Edition squads that are leading to great games.

Just give it a chance when it comes around, yeah?

This is true, but that’s also kind of the point? Let’s take the First Order. Currently, based on what we know of Wave 2, the First Order will have one ship available for 2.0 format play upon release. You want to play FO? You have to play a TIE Swarm. And that will get better as new releases happen, but that still doesn’t make up for the poor options that have to be dealt with first.

I think this comes down to options. People like them. Heck, your defense of 2E format seems to be “wait until it has more options.” I see your points about new upgrades and ships enriching 2E, but that also stands true for Extended. 

I do think 2E is an interesting format and is worth playing around with. But I also think that it is an option among other viable options that I also want to play.

Edited by SabineKey

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2 hours ago, Crit Happens said:

Have you thought about what you're saying?

Fewer options is something that I rarely associate with more interesting. There will still be best options, but since there is a much smaller pool of things to choose from, far more people would be playing the exact same thing.

TIE swarms, supernatural Vader, supernatural Luke. You're right, those options are far more interesting than what's available in extended format... 

As a profligate list builder, novelty seeker, and inveterate dilettante with ships, I would absolutely have less interest in 2.0 only. So much so that I’d avoid competitive events that were so.

I fly different lists all the time. Rare is the list I fly more than 3 times. For me a large part of the fun is in coming up with new ideas, thinking through how to approach them, and then putting the ship on the table and seeing if it works. If a store were to run 2.0 only game nights, other than a one off thing, it would be a store I stopped going to.

I would rather any new players borrow whatever they need from me than play 2.0 only. There is only so many times you can fly Vader+mini swarm, Howl and Iden swarm, 8 academy swarm, and Luke, Wedge, +1. It’s fine for a one off night, but if all competitive events were that? I wouldn’t go.

Edit: also, for those of us with more dice than we can reasonably use, maybe find a newbie and give them one or two. The guy I played Sunday walked in with 3, and left with 5. I’ve still got 8, so it hurt me none. But the extra dice will make a difference for them.

Edited by millertime059

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Always remember, FFG only makes good choices for this game to keep it alive. They primarily want to earn more money. Allowing extended format for tournaments sells more ships in the short term. You may be right that it will hurt the game in the long term, but FFG only cares about the next financial quarter.

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1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

This is true, but that’s also kind of the point? Let’s take the First Order. Currently, based on what we know of Wave 2, the First Order will have one ship available for 2.0 format play upon release. You want to play FO? You have to play a TIE Swarm. And that will get better as new releases happen, but that still doesn’t make up for the poor options that have to be dealt with first.

I think this comes down to options. People like them. Heck, your defense of 2E format seems to be “wait until it has more options.” I see your points about new upgrades and ships enriching 2E, but that also stands true for Extended. 

I do think 2E is an interesting format and is worth playing around with. But I also think that it is an option among other viable options that I also want to play.

I expect Resistance/FO to allow the full contents of conversion kit to be legal in Second Edition format.  That would give both factions 4 ships and bring them into line with wave 1 factions

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8 minutes ago, Dengar5 said:

Always remember, FFG only makes good choices for this game to keep it alive. They primarily want to earn more money. Allowing extended format for tournaments sells more ships in the short term. You may be right that it will hurt the game in the long term, but FFG only cares about the next financial quarter.

But selling Extended format ships makes ZERO impact on their P&L - those ships are already out in the supply chain and FFG have taken their money for them.

The commercial thing to do is push Second Edition and sell the Wave 1+ ships instead into the supply chain in greater numbers.

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2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I expect Resistance/FO to allow the full contents of conversion kit to be legal in Second Edition format.  That would give both factions 4 ships and bring them into line with wave 1 factions

And that would help. There has also been some speculation that more ships will be announced for wave 2, including a second FO base expansion. But until these theories are confirmed or denied, we kind of have to plan on the information we do have.

Also, we currently do not have a fourth Rebel or Imperial ship announced for wave 2, making them behind the other three factions if Resistance and FO kits were counted as legal for 2E format. This does, however, deepen my own suspicion that more ship for wave 2 will be announced.

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4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And that would help. There has also been some speculation that more ships will be announced for wave 2, including a second FO base expansion. But until these theories are confirmed or denied, we kind of have to plan on the information we do have.

Also, we currently do not have a fourth Rebel or Imperial ship announced for wave 2, making them behind the other three factions if Resistance and FO kits were counted as legal for 2E format. This does, however, deepen my own suspicion that more ship for wave 2 will be announced.

I don't think anything more will come for wave 2.  Wave 3 will be their target for levelling the factions up and I think by then you'll have 7 factions with 3 or 4 ships each.

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2 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I don't think anything more will come for wave 2.  Wave 3 will be their target for levelling the factions up and I think by then you'll have 7 factions with 3 or 4 ships each.

That could make sense. Again, we just have to wait and see.

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Where I live, 2.0 only events just took a nosedive in attendance. Nobody cares. Extended formats are all filled up. Sure, its anecdotal, but at least in one major european city there is basically no interest in 2.0.

Players that actually want to go on tournaments will be, at this time, mostly veterans. They want to play with their toys - hence extended. If they DONT get to play with their toys, you get really bad propaganda, and that will scare of many many more new players entirely than a lopsided availability of conversion kit stuff for the next year.

Tournaments are not the main environment for x-wing, and certainly not what makes new people get into the hobby for the most part.

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5 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Anyone who doesn't think the second edition format can be interesting should go watch this. Two of the world's best players having a very good game with the format:

https://m.twitch.tv/carolinakrayts

Paul Heaver has Luke+3 Y-Wings

Duncan Howard has Vader+2 Reapers

Sure, because format where I can use about 6 types of ships is more interesting than format where I can use my whole collection that I built up over the years (sarcasm).

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2 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Sure, because format where I can use about 6 types of ships is more interesting than format where I can use my whole collection that I built up over the years (sarcasm).

I think a format where you can only use 10 ships but where the games are more balanced is much better actually. 

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1 minute ago, Kieransi said:

I think a format where you can only use 10 ships but where the games are more balanced is much better actually. 

I wonder if you played at least 1 game of new X-Wing.
Because extended 2.0 is pretty balanced game overall and you can win with everything, as long as you can play well.

Now tell me how to deal with TIE Swarm in your "balanced version".

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8 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

I wonder if you played at least 1 game of new X-Wing.
Because extended 2.0 is pretty balanced game overall and you can win with everything, as long as you can play well.

Now tell me how to deal with TIE Swarm in your "balanced version".

Ok. Extended. 

I played a game where I flew TIE Punishers against E-Wings and A-Wings. Both lists were built as well as possible, my opponent, also a podcaster, played very well, and I tabled him. 

I played two games where my opponent flew Boba Fett with 0-0-0, Fenn, and some of the other cheap filler ships not available to scum in extended. Lost badly both times. 

I badly tabled double YT-2400s.

I badly tabled Han/B-Wings with a Z-95 swarm.

I haven't played or seen a single game of extended (over 20 games) that was actually that balanced.

Meanwhile, in limited format, I lost to TIE Swarm, and lost once playing it myself. It's not that scary really. All my games of 2.0-only (around 20) have been really fun and balanced. 

Edited by Kieransi

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The idea that Extended is currently balanced is certainly fanciful.  There's a small set of ships/upgrades with a significant lead on everything else.  I've only had a couple of properly close Extended games.

Theres going to be a lot of convergent design in Extended over the next month or so as people hone down on the good stuff.

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5 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The idea that Extended is currently balanced is certainly fanciful.  There's a small set of ships/upgrades with a significant lead on everything else.

Not more fanciful than idea that pure 2.0 is balanced. Of course good builds will emerge in both formats sooner or later, it is truism, because in competitive games some standard meta is always present.
The difference is in extended format you got much more ships and much more upgrades, thus it is much more possible to have more optimal "lists" or "archetypes".

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11 minutes ago, SOTL said:

That must be why 1.0 was such a joy as the card pool expanded!  Gotcha.

Nice strawman.

Now show me cards in extended version that are such a shining example of bad design like TLT, Miranda Doni or Sabine crew card were in 1.0.

Edited by Embir82

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