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Kieransi

I disagree with FFG greatly on OP formats

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2 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

this may serve if loopin chewie cannot be obtained.

Loopin Hey! That's my Fish when? 

Chewie is replaced with an enraged penguin and the stormtroopers with fish. 

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34 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Paraphrasing. "New players are bad and therefore it's ok if their games are lost in the listbuilding step" may be one of the worst arguments I've heard on the forums. Why do people keep saying this?!?

On what planet do we want a game where you know, as soon as lists hit the table, that one player will lose?!?

What planet are we on that you can already see that we've slid back into 1st editition territory?

At this point we're positively  soaring to conclusions

I understand the concept that there's an obvious advantage to having ALL TEH THANGS but "games lost in the list building step?" That's just silly

This ain't wave 8, age of the Torp scouts. You gotta build one shoddy list to lose at the list building stage in 2nd edition

If I can smash the Jonus bombers with flipping Sabine/Seri/Palob, then no one should claim they'd lose with the far more reliable XXXXs 

Seriously, Xwings/fangs/boba/tie fighters are all very competitive and this game is objectively better balanced than that mess of a previous editition

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

What planet are we on that you can already see that we've slid back into 1st editition territory?

At this point we're positively  soaring to conclusions

I understand the concept that there's an obvious advantage to having ALL TEH THANGS but "games lost in the list building step?" That's just silly

This ain't wave 8, age of the Torp scouts. You gotta build one shoddy list to lose at the list building stage in 2nd edition

If I can smash the Jonus bombers with flipping Sabine/Seri/Palob, then no one should claim they'd lose with the far more reliable XXXXs 

Seriously, Xwings/fangs/boba/tie fighters are all very competitive and this game is objectively better balanced than that mess of a previous editition

 

So, that's anecdotal evidence, which I've been trying to steer clear of. Not meaning to presume here but I think your opponent might not have been gud... also, it could be argued that the Shadowcaster and Palob are better than the things available  to new players. 

Just because it's better than the end of 1.0 doesn't make it balanced. 1.0 was a disaster of epic proportions. 

Also, I find it very unlikely that you've already extensively playtested all of 2.0 and know for certain that there aren't oppressive meta lists that are unbeatable by new-release only lists. It's only been around a week. As Brunas said back on page 1, we're in the golden age now. Just wait a month. 

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Sounds more like players griping about burgeoning oppressive metas aren't flying too well themselves. Every game I've been in (and I've played far too many games to be considered a responsible adult) has been decided by positioning errors (either long or short term) or the occasional persistent bout of crap dice 

This is no longer a game in which builds just steamroll everything unavoidably. If you joust bombers, obviously you're asking for it, but they're not 360 turrets of autodeath. You get to play around them 

Already seen several threads about people going gaga about X/Y/Z and kneejerking their way into a premature "x is busted" verdict.

How about we instead consider the possibility that assuming a busted meta is just that, an assumption? How about we consider the possibility that the game actually seems like it's reaching some sort of balance?

Obviously some things are shot (most large bases, poor things) but there are a considerable number of worthwhile options

Course you wouldn't know from how conditioned everyone seems to be to 1st Ed awfulness, but that's all the more reason to actually try playing rather than assuming the worst 

Have yet to see anything even resembling insurmountable, and even lists I thought were poorly built turned out to have real teeth when flown well against me 

Not to advocate that you're going to become crown king of Xwing by spamming TIE aggressors or anything, but there is a very reasonable array of good stuff out there. Some of it happens to be in Wave 1.

 

 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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13 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

So, that's anecdotal evidence, which I've been trying to steer clear of. Not meaning to presume here but I think your opponent might not have been gud... also, it could be argued that the Shadowcaster and Palob are better than the things available  to new players. 

Just because it's better than the end of 1.0 doesn't make it balanced. 1.0 was a disaster of epic proportions. 

Also, I find it very unlikely that you've already extensively playtested all of 2.0 and know for certain that there aren't oppressive meta lists that are unbeatable by new-release only lists. It's only been around a week. As Brunas said back on page 1, we're in the golden age now. Just wait a month. 

Please do argue that they are better. I need to understand why you are convinced wave 1 will just be crushed despite data I have seen to the contrary. Yes, that is antidotal, but I don't think I've seen you support your conclusion with any sort of data.

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So I have to strongly disagree with “competitive should 2.0” crowd.

First, all the ships should be relatively balanced.  Whether that be conversion ships or 2.0 Wave (X) ships, this is the reason we have an app with variable points costs.  The huge selling point of 2.0 is that we’re not stuck with numbers printed on cards.  If Jonus Brothers is overperforming, FFG can simply adjust points accordingly.

Second, as has been pointed out by others, conversion kits are available to everyone!  There is absolutely no reason a new player shouldn’t buy a conversion kit of their favorite faction.  I wish there had been such a valuable box set when I started.  Instead of having to decide if I wanted Rebel Aces because they look cool or a TIE Phantom because I heard they’re good, they can just buy ALL THE SHIPS!  I would happily lend some plastic to a new player who had only bought a conversion pack and starter set.  ****, I’d give them bases.

Third, it is you and your local communities responsibility to make the game new player friendly.  So lend out ships, and don’t hoard your goodies to yourself.  I have more fun with more options accessible to play with.  High tier competitive should be the most complicated version of the game.

Finally, I want to fly mother****in A-wings in tournaments!  And be competitive!  If you’re telling me I can’t do that until A-Wings are released in 2019, you sir, can get the eff out!  ?

*Disclaimer* - I’m not actually mad at anyone personally, I’m just being dramatic to make a point.

Edited by Phelan Boots

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other thing to factor in is Extended is more than likely rushed, to what degree we still need to see but definitely rushed.

The only thing thats been "2.0 released" that feels wicked strong to me for his cost is Thane, and thats just because i believe he was the first Expose designed and they just never changed it to be random. I dont even see Vader as a huge problem because at ~100pts the fricker SHOULD be a threat and a half lol.

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1 hour ago, Phelan Boots said:

Third, it is you and your local communities responsibility to make the game new player friendly.  So lend out ships, and don’t hoard your goodies to yourself.

**** right. On Sunday one of the local stores was running a launch event. Someone arrived who had just bought a 2.0 core set and came back to the tables.

’Its ok, I’ll watch for a bit’

Not on my watch! I said, you have time and want a game?

’sure’

Well pull up a seat. What you got, just the core? Well what’s your favorite ship or pilot?

10 minutes later I had him set up with Supernatural Luke, Wedge, and Dutch. Loaded out with what I thought was a decent setup (I’m only Imperials so far). I set him up the ships and upgrades, another player gave him the dials and base plates. He had read the rules, so knew the basics, and I coached him through what his ships could do. Taught him very basic things about turn 0 (why his list wanted the large rocks, and spaced out compared to my list). Taught him how to leverage Supernatural Reflexes on Luke to make the most of his agility and repositioning.

and it wasn’t the first time either. Someone comes in, I will always lend them stuff, and coach them as we play, if that’s what they want. In the end he had a good time, and I hope he learned a lot about how to play. And by the end he had started to pick up some of the deeper tactics.

Format is irrelevant, it’s being welcoming to new players hat matters. And by that, I mean you. Yes you. 

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32 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

**** right. On Sunday one of the local stores was running a launch event. Someone arrived who had just bought a 2.0 core set and came back to the tables.

’Its ok, I’ll watch for a bit’

Not on my watch! I said, you have time and want a game?

’sure’

Well pull up a seat. What you got, just the core? Well what’s your favorite ship or pilot?

10 minutes later I had him set up with Supernatural Luke, Wedge, and Dutch. Loaded out with what I thought was a decent setup (I’m only Imperials so far). I set him up the ships and upgrades, another player gave him the dials and base plates. He had read the rules, so knew the basics, and I coached him through what his ships could do. Taught him very basic things about turn 0 (why his list wanted the large rocks, and spaced out compared to my list). Taught him how to leverage Supernatural Reflexes on Luke to make the most of his agility and repositioning.

and it wasn’t the first time either. Someone comes in, I will always lend them stuff, and coach them as we play, if that’s what they want. In the end he had a good time, and I hope he learned a lot about how to play. And by the end he had started to pick up some of the deeper tactics.

Format is irrelevant, it’s being welcoming to new players hat matters. And by that, I mean you. Yes you. 

Dang, I need someone like you to ease me in to the game! LOLOL.

Edited by Dain Ironfoot

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31 minutes ago, Dain Ironfoot said:

Dang, I need someone like you to ease me in to the game! LOLOL.

Well if you’re in the PNW ;)

maybe it’s the groups and places I’ve been, but it has always seemed like people were willing to help out. If your local store has a decent group, there’s probably someone willing to lend a hand there.

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Hey guys! I'm a bit late to the conversation here but i'll chip in my experience so far as a new player.

Firstly im one of the guys over at MOTF, we've never played or owned Xwing before and decided to jump into the game just purchasing Xwing 2.0 content only (not extended).

We're following the progress of Luke, whose giving himself the challenge to 'get gud' in 2 months just in time for our Xwing Nationals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2CaSp93eQ

I'll let @Captain Weather (Luke) chip in about his experience so far as a new player.

As for me, i'll turn up to a normal store night and practice some Xwing 2.0. Right now the games i find the most fun are against other 2.0 only players, but sometimes i'll come across an upgrade thats in the conversion kit only and think to myself thats something i'd like to have, but have to buy a whole conversion kit for no other reason but just to have that upgrade.

Other extended players are around and would give me list building advice on my Vader + TIE swarm list (thats all i can build) and would say things like 'yeah get a TIE defender, and your list will be great', which is a bit deflating because TIE Defenders technically do not exist for me yet. 

We already know our OP event will be extended, but just knowing that there is no way i could compete against other players who have access to ships and cards that i do not is simply quite daunting, and is a major reason i wouldnt personally turn up to an event.

But anyway thats just my experience. I guess people can classify me as a 'beer and pretzels xwing player' because i choose not to invest in a conversion kit and buy 1.0 stuff, but in all honesty if there was a 2.0 limited event only i would try to compete hard in that branch of OP.

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What a stupid and terrible idea.

When I was starting in 1.0 I was EXACTLY in the same position as new players are now. I was behind 7-8 waves and had to build collection from the ground up.
It was not a problem then, it is not a problem now.

Restricting competitive format only to 2.0 basically means:
"Hi old timers! We don't care about you anymore and your collections! We already made money on you so you can say good bye to all the stuff that you were collecting over the years - you must start from scratch if you want to be competitve!"
Also, it would also mean that Conversion Kits were basically a SCAM.
It is terrible, stupid and enraging idea. By doing this FFG would basically wipe out their whole X-Wing community, that was growing up over the years. Also it would shattered their image in the eyes of old timers.

If you want rotation eff off to MtG or some other dumb trash money pit.

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1 hour ago, Irokenics said:

Hey guys! I'm a bit late to the conversation here but i'll chip in my experience so far as a new player.

Firstly im one of the guys over at MOTF, we've never played or owned Xwing before and decided to jump into the game just purchasing Xwing 2.0 content only (not extended).

We're following the progress of Luke, whose giving himself the challenge to 'get gud' in 2 months just in time for our Xwing Nationals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2CaSp93eQ

I'll let @Captain Weather (Luke) chip in about his experience so far as a new player.

Solid Ken, didn't make it a link! Like this one here.

Now as a new player, I'm willing to dive in and I want to get beat up on by everything out there because that's the best way to learn. But, that's definitely a reflection of who I am as a player. I'm a very competitive player and play at an extremely high level for other games. 

It's a difficult issue and I don't think there's an easy answer. Your main problem is that it sets up very easy NPEs and barriers to entry for 'regular' new players. People don't want to have to come into a game thinking they need to buy multiple waves of X-Wing, plus a conversion kit, in addition to the core and 2.0 stuff to be able to compete. 

I think all the people who are basically responding with "new players just need to harden up and deal with it" (and often in not as kind a phrasing as that) should reflect on the fact that new players are vital to the longevity of a game. You want new people to come in and enjoy the game, and putting up a fairly hostile front to a valid concern for most new players isn't going to engender many of them to join or stick with the game. 

Similarly, I also think "new players aren't going to go to competitive events anyway!" is not entirely accurate. Yes, new players are often reluctant to go to premier level events for fear of being embarrassed by skilled players or for not being 'gud' enough. But, equally, if you're making it harder for them to do so competitively than of course they won't go. That's problematic because once a new player starts going to premier events they're much more likely to go deep on a game (which is what you should want as a community). 

On the flip side though, players that are already heavily invested don't want to feel as if that investment doesn't count for anything. That investment isn't just in ships and upgrades, but also experience with particular lists. If you're really, really good with say TIE Phantoms, and that's what you've been running for a very long time in 1.0, then of course you will be heavily put out if suddenly they're no longer available to you at a premier level. 

Like I said, I don't think there's an easy answer to the problem. I think right now the best response is to come at the issue with an open mind and try and be understanding rather than aggressively dismiss the other side (no matter what your view). 

 

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I think that limiting tournaments to 2.0 only will stop me from playing at all until the ships that I actually enjoy flying are released. From FFG's perspective, it makes total sense to allow all products, as it not only encourages the purchase of remaining old stock, but also gives them a base from which to begin refining point costs on everything at once, rather than piecemeal.

On a side note though, I think the whole OP structure is unbelievably bad. It's a toxic environment akin to Armada finals, only in every game of the day. Half points on small ships doesn't solve the issue - it just balances it across all builds. An Armada-esque point allocating scheme (10 for a 400-0, 1 for a 0-400) would make tournaments infinitely better, encourage far more tactical play and give players with 2 losses a glimmer of a chance to make the cut in larger events.

Also, because of the nature of 2.0's startup, new players who want to become competitive quickly have to invest less than $250 to do so if they're willing to netlist and play the same thing over and over.

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Everyone here to dump on Second Edition format needs to remember you're only seeing about 25% of the format at present.  There's four more factions to come, an extra ship for the released factions, and new upgrades on Wave 2-3 for the existing ships.


Second Edition Format is going to be AWESOME.  I sincerely believe it's going to be more interesting, varied, skill-intensive and above all else FUN than Extended. It's already a lot of fun with some great Second Edition squads that are leading to great games.

Just give it a chance when it comes around, yeah?

Edited by SOTL

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I  also vote for Second Edition for Official events.  The reason is that Extended IS NOT balanced.  There are way too many  OP and broken things you can build RIGHT NOW.  I guess people enjoy finding those and that is OK for casual play.  But in my opinion, official tournaments shouldn't be the BETA testing ground for the extended content.

My assumption is that FFG has better tested the Second Edition content as there is much less content.  Also, FFG could respond MUCH FASTER to necessary changes in second edition again because of the size of the content.

FFG is simply incapable of responding to the brokeness of Extended edition.

Lets just take a simple example that a friend and I figured out.  Unlimited proximity mines.  That is right, you can scatter the battlefield with proximity mines dropping them every turn with TIE Bombers.  Its beyond broken.  Its dumb.    This is just one of many examples of FFG not properly play testing Extended mode.  Its just like the APP, rushed.  (I was incorrect and missed the part of the card that said no 'recovering').

I personally have purchased all 3 upgrade kits but I am uninterested in extended mode.  I don't care that I can't use the majority of my collection NOW because I know I will be able to use it later once its properly balanced.  Its just like my EPIC ships sitting on the shelf.  I will wait to play with those too.  Because for me, there is plenty of content in second edition.  Granted, I just got my content on release unlike many of you who unfairly got it a month ahead of time.  So maybe its you guys who got the content first who are complaining that you want extended.

Edited by Lace Jetstreamer

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1 hour ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Lets just take a simple example that a friend and I figured out.  Unlimited proximity mines.  That is right, you can scatter the battlefield with proximity mines dropping them every turn with TIE Bombers.  Its beyond broken.  Its dumb.  This is just one of many examples of my lack of reading comprehension.

FTFYNNTTM.

Swz16_proximity-mines.png

It's RIGHT THERE DUDE.  RIGHT THERE ON THE CARD.

...and this is a perfect example of why newcomer events should be 2.0 or quick build, and not the other way around.  The more ships and upgrades available, the more likely it is that a player misread a card or misinterpret the rules.  So, small, friendly events intended to introduce newcomers to the game should try and keep things basic to prevent from overwhelming new players, while large, competitive, events aimed at determining store, regional, national champions (and beyond) should be based on the most complete and up-to-date version of the rules.

TL;DR - yes, there's a need to build the player base and introduce new players to the game.  And yes, there's definitely a place for 2.0 expansion only and quick build events to help grow the community.  But restricting the play of the wider community is not the way to do it.

 

Edited by FTS Gecko

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9 hours ago, Varyag said:

Second Edition should be the standard. It is way more interesting as there is limited options. You will see lists in Second Edition that you probably would rarely see in Extended.

Have you thought about what you're saying?

Fewer options is something that I rarely associate with more interesting. There will still be best options, but since there is a much smaller pool of things to choose from, far more people would be playing the exact same thing.

TIE swarms, supernatural Vader, supernatural Luke. You're right, those options are far more interesting than what's available in extended format... 

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Yeah, you only really get "broken" extended format cards if you fail tp understand them properly

The absolute WORST cards are gunner Han (scum) and 0-0-0 who are...a little too cheap? The horror!!!!

Jonus' is probably also really undercosted

Otherwise though, "far too many broken combos"? Really? Overall, I've found you're FAR better off getting a decent ship count than overloading with upgrades. Ships die quick in second Ed, there's no more everliving bull like infinite Regen or Palp aces

Plus, any so called "broken" extended build can just as easily be discovered in the Second Edition format. ****, it's EASIER because there's less **** to go through

As a hypothetical, consider tie swarm. If it's the Second Edition jousting monster, how're you gonna beat it? Ain't got no trajectory simulators, ain't got no persistent defensive modifiers outside Luke. 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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3 hours ago, Lace Jetstreamer said:

Lets just take a simple example that a friend and I figured out.  Unlimited proximity mines.  That is right, you can scatter the battlefield with proximity mines dropping them every turn with TIE Bombers.  Its beyond broken.  Its dumb.  This is just one of many examples of FFG not properly play testing Extended mode.  Its just like the APP, rushed.

wtf? do you guys not even attempt to read the cards or something?

The card flatout says "THIS CARDS CHARGES CANNOT BE RECOVERED" - you get 2 proxies per 6pts spent, no more no less. And you also cant double down on one ship even though it has 2 slots since you are not allowed the same upgrade twice.

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