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Kieransi

I disagree with FFG greatly on OP formats

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So here's my rub on this argument.

Say this regional season somebody decided to hop into the game.  They got a core set, and a resistance falcon because it's one of the better "starter" expansions you can get to be psuedo competitive.  They go to a regional and get absolutely rail-roaded by NymMiranda.

That "new" player has under $100 invested in the game.

The NymMiranda player has:

$40 core

$20 Nym

$20 Miranda

$20 for a second TLT K-wing expansion

$40 Ghost

$30 for Guns for Hire

$40 for Scum starter

$40 for Resistance Bomber.

That's $250 in a two ship list.  

You are paying for the cards.  Not the ships.

With the conversion YOU GET THE CARDS.  You get the bases.  You get the dials.  You only need to acquire the ships.  Buy a conversion kit of your faction of liking, mess around with card combos.  Play the game without the plastic fancy topper.  Understand what you like.  Then pick up what you need. 

Never have we been *MORE* on balance since it was the cards all along that made it the game it was.  Not the plastic on top.

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23 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You're wrong.  I'm just about as X-Wing die-hard as it's possible to be, with tons of disposable income, and if FFG didn't let me use all my ships from the beginning of 2.0, I would have quit.  100%.  No question.  And if I would have quit, as invested as I am in X-Wing, there's a huge chunk of the player-base that would have quit.

I think you're wrong if you think you represent everyone. Just because you would quit if you weren't allowed to play whatever ship in a competitive match doesn't mean every other old player would throw in the towel just because some ships are only available in casual play or certain tournaments. 

18 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

They absolutely would have. Imagine being told you might not be able to use your brand new ships for a couple years.

Well, I just bought a C-ROC a little bit ago and I can't use that... I own a ton of old ships and I like them a lot. I'd be willing to make the sacrifice for a better community. 

9 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

This is just patently untrue. Wave 1 only lists have no issues whatsoever competing with extended ships. Where are you getting this idea that wave 1 ships aka Vader, Luke, Boba, Fangs, Saw's Renegades, Y-Wings, and Scum Falcon are just so much worse than the conversion kit ships? What extended ships are you worried about? All of the brand new players in my community seem to be having an absolute blast flying against Veterans and their converted ships.

I think you're wrong. I have a lot of experiences of Wave 1 only lists being absolutely squashed by extended lists. Just because the meta lists haven't been found in a  week doesn't mean they don't exist. We'll see at the Gold Squadron Classic this week if any of the top lists are new-release-only. 

9 minutes ago, DodgingArcs said:

I disagree with the OP 100%

If FFG have balanced the game right then it doesn’t matter if you only have a few things like Core and 2.0 expansions. You should still be able to play. 

The gap between new and experienced players is pretty massive anyway so what does access to ships matter. 

There is still old stock. It’s not like new players can’t go and buy all the old ships and a conversion kit if they want. 

So a few things. First, more list options means better options for more good lists. New players won't have access to good filler ships, and thus will be corralled into inefficient uses of points. 

A gap in skill doesn't justify a gap in squad power. Do we really want a game that's lost before it starts? 

And that old stock won't last. There's not enough to go around. Already several ships are $40+ on Amazon. 

19 minutes ago, Squark said:

I see what people are saying about going into 2.0 with only the new stuff, but frankly? That's a "new player coming into a big game problem," more than anything else. Communities need to be good about providing new players with a welcoming environment, and part of that is done at the list building stage, but I don't think the 2.0 only format is a good way to set that up. For one thing, a lot of the initial buy-in is coming from returning players, and arbitrarily limiting what they can use is not ideal. But the bigger issue for me is that the 2.0 format has a really, really rocky patch coming up.

The 2.0 only format (Let's call it standard after the magic equivalent) is actually in a pretty good place right now (Provided Wave 14 is included. Which, just to be clear, it is. According to FFG's own App). The three factions are relatively balanced against each other both in power and options (Scum has one more ship, but the Rebels and Empire have more pilots for their flagship vessel). But Wave 2 throws a wrench in all that. Scum pulls solidly ahead of the other factions in the options area because the other two Wave 1 factions get with nothing new. Meanwhile the Resistance gets a meager but manageable choice of two ships, while the First Order is stuck with just the deluxe tie fighter, which pays for stuff it doesn't need to do its primary job. And with Wave 3 focused on the Prequels, going to be 6-8 months before these issues are adressed. That's a pretty long period to shackle a newly released game with a bromen flagship format.

It doesn't need to be a big game though. Second Edition. Brand new game. So much missed opportunity, and that's what I'm getting at. 

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7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So yes, I was being snarky, and no, I'm not offended.

OTOH, that statement applies to me very much.

Because if that's how all players, and more importantly FFG, views this game, it's no surprise that. . .

There are no missions

There is no campaign

There is no Epic (yet)

There are no releases like the Shuttle Tydirium that aren't tourna-worthy and are based only on IP narrative.

If FFG thinks that every single player needs to be converted to a token-craving, alt-art-seeking, tournament-winning X-Winginest Illuminati. . .

. . .then it is no wonder that I find the game unsatisfying.

The sad thing is that I think your viewpoint is what drives the game.  Since 2.0 is a re-buy-in, with no sign of a change in any of the above, it is one of the largest factors in why I have decided to get off the ride.

I'm not quitting because of the cost of conversion, I'm lowering my interesting in this game to correspond with my expectations for its future development into something that actually promotes casual play--directly.

Which is something close to nothing.

 

Yeah sorry if that didn't come across better. What I meant is that having a limited card pool for competitive means the conversions are more available for casual play. If there exists a large portion of ships that aren't competitive-legal, there exists an opportunity for FFG to try to develop more "casual"-oriented options for those ships. 

That one sentence that you quoted does come across as a little shallow and close-minded, so sorry about that. When it comes down to it, the largest segment of X-Wing players never go to a tournament bigger than a store champ, so it makes sense that the bigger format be set up for casual play. 

Basically, this "everything for competitive, new release for casual" thing seems backwards IMO. 

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Indeed, it should be "everything for competitive, everything for casual"

and then local communities can make special events as they desire, plus the occasional "Themed tournaments" with special prizes that FFG can cook up (such as launch tournies with new content only)

+/- special achievement prizes for running themed squads

Edited by ficklegreendice

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4 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Indeed, it should be "everything for competitive, everything for casual"

and then local communities can make special events as they desire, plus the occasional "Themed tournaments" with special prizes that FFG can cook up (such as launch tournies with new content only)

+/- special achievement prizes for running themed squads

This is what we have now.

The problem is that old players cannot be trusted to host such events because they all just want to play with all of their fun toys.
 

By saying "run 2.0-only formats if you feel like it", FFG is dooming the 2.0-only format to non-existence

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6 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

 

 

By saying "run 2.0-only formats if you feel like it", FFG is dooming the 2.0-only format to non-existence

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that

Only time one should ever enforce release-based obselence is in tcgs when the card pools get too big and design space runs out 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

This is what we have now.

The problem is that old players cannot be trusted to host such events because they all just want to play with all of their fun toys.
 

By saying "run 2.0-only formats if you feel like it", FFG is dooming the 2.0-only format to non-existence

The fact that you are standing up for this kind of disproves your assertion that old players can’t be trusted. I’ve known plenty of other veterans players who are more than happy to help new players out and play in tournaments with list restricts from time to time. But they also paid for their revamped ships, and getting them early is a bit of a bonus for supporting 1.0. It’s the freedom to choose that encourages good will, while forcing limitations could breed ill will. 

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As one of those new players (well, I had played some 1.0 at the kitchen table, so I'm returning - but new to the idea of trying to playing at the FLGS), I am definitely on the side of thinking I'd be far more comfortable with 2nd edition being the default format. Easier for the store to stock what would sell, easier to grasp the card/pilot/meta complexity, easier to sell a new player on the percieved buy-in. Like the OP, I feel like FFG not emphasizing that mode - it should be the default in the app, the suggested for all events until Wave 2 comes out, etc, is a missed opportunity. 

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18 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I'm already a bit bored if Extended, it feels too close to 1.0.  I hope Second Edition format takes off big time because I think it's more interesting.

I agree. Last night at game night it was who could abuse the new rules/mods and find the game breaking combo more than let’s see who can fly better and set up your arc attacks etc. I’m also ready for 2.0 specific 

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In response to people claiming it's unfair for new players because they have less stuff, I've seen tons of people selling their collections on the various swap and sell pages. Even just locally, every couple of weeks, people are posting modest collections up for grabs at VERY reasonable prices. 

During first edition, did we worry about new players not being able to compete because they had less stuff? No. It's just a part of the process. 

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2 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

In response to people claiming it's unfair for new players because they have less stuff, I've seen tons of people selling their collections on the various swap and sell pages. Even just locally, every couple of weeks, people are posting modest collections up for grabs at VERY reasonable prices. 

During first edition, did we worry about new players not being able to compete because they had less stuff? No. It's just a part of the process. 

the difference is that 1.0 is going out of print, and will no longer be readily available. EBay is an option, but not a good one imo. you should not be burdened by what someone will or wont sell, as well as hoping conversion kits remain in stock and in print.

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1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

the difference is that 1.0 is going out of print, and will no longer be readily available. EBay is an option, but not a good one imo. you should not be burdened by what someone will or wont sell, as well as hoping conversion kits remain in stock and in print.

There have been many instances of ships being unavailable for a very long time (k wings) and no one ever cried for a temporary ban until New players can catch up. 

Ultimately, do you want to keep your vast existing player base happy by letting them use everything, or pretend to give new players a chance by limiting choices. 

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4 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

There have been many instances of ships being unavailable for a very long time (k wings) and no one ever cried for a temporary ban until New players can catch up. 

Ultimately, do you want to keep your vast existing player base happy by letting them use everything, or pretend to give new players a chance by limiting choices. 

difference is that kwings were coming back, these aren't. Ultimately, do what you want locally, but regionals and above should be rerelease only.

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4 hours ago, Dain Ironfoot said:

I am a new player and Ill admit I'm leery of attending a game night because 1) I only have the new 2.0 stuff, and 2) there would be so many cards/ships I don't know I'd always be like: wait, what does that do again? How did you do that? I'd probably be horrible to play with! lol.

I'm really excited to dive in but also somewhat tentative.

In regards to your second hesitation everyone is trying to figure out what all the ships and cards due.

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New players are still going to get crushed at tournaments whether they are playing extended or 2.0 or quickbuild. Because they’re new, and when you’re new, you tend to suck, and that’s normal. We shouldn’t be feeding new players the false narrative that the only reason they’re losing is because the other people bought more stuff then them. That’s a lie that’s harmful to the growth of new players. 

56 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

the difference is that 1.0 is going out of print, and will no longer be readily available. EBay is an option, but not a good one imo. you should not be burdened by what someone will or wont sell, as well as hoping conversion kits remain in stock and in print.

Baseless speculation. Please provide evidence of this, because precedent contradicts this. FFG has said in interviews they’re going to keep printing 1.0 ships until they release them in 2.0 form. There’s also no reason to suspect they’d stop printing conversion kits. They were still printing 2012 Core Sets and Wave 1 ships 5 years later, and they still print conversion kits for Descent 2nd edition that came out in 2012.

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30 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

New players are still going to get crushed at tournaments whether they are playing extended or 2.0 or quickbuild. Because they’re new, and when you’re new, you tend to suck, and that’s normal. We shouldn’t be feeding new players the false narrative that the only reason they’re losing is because the other people bought more stuff then them. That’s a lie that’s harmful to the growth of new players. 

Baseless speculation. Please provide evidence of this, because precedent contradicts this. FFG has said in interviews they’re going to keep printing 1.0 ships until they release them in 2.0 form. There’s also no reason to suspect they’d stop printing conversion kits. They were still printing 2012 Core Sets and Wave 1 ships 5 years later, and they still print conversion kits for Descent 2nd edition that came out in 2012.

still a hard sell. Like I said, do whatever locally, but high level should be 2.0 only. with regards to a message for new players, lists do matter. They are not the only factor, but they are a relevant one.

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33 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

New players are still going to get crushed at tournaments whether they are playing extended or 2.0 or quickbuild. Because they’re new, and when you’re new, you tend to suck, and that’s normal. We shouldn’t be feeding new players the false narrative that the only reason they’re losing is because the other people bought more stuff then them. That’s a lie that’s harmful to the growth of new players. 

Paraphrasing. "New players are bad and therefore it's ok if their games are lost in the listbuilding step" may be one of the worst arguments I've heard on the forums. Why do people keep saying this?!?

On what planet do we want a game where you know, as soon as lists hit the table, that one player will lose?!?

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2 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Everyone is wrong except me

 

The correct competitive format should be threat cards, and only ships that do not contain the letter "A".

Final salvo should be replaced with your choice of arm wrestling or a knife fight to the death. 

0/10, only acceptable tie breaker is loopin chewie.

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7 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Everyone is wrong except me

 

The correct competitive format should be threat cards, and only ships that do not contain the letter "A".

Final salvo should be replaced with your choice of arm wrestling or a knife fight to the death. 

Shouldn't the tiebreaker have to be a game of Hey! That's my Fish? 

Hey! That's my Fish 2.0 of course. The app. 

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