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Kieransi

I disagree with FFG greatly on OP formats

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6 minutes ago, Dain Ironfoot said:

I am a new player and Ill admit I'm leery of attending a game night because 1) I only have the new 2.0 stuff, and 2) there would be so many cards/ships I don't know I'd always be like: wait, what does that do again? How did you do that? I'd probably be horrible to play with! lol.

I'm really excited to dive in but also somewhat tentative.

Hey, 99% of players I’ve interacted with are happy to explain things to you, help you understand their list, give you tips on your list, etc. I only played with one friend for ages, and at my first tournament I got my butt kicked hard by 3x ion Defenders because I’d never seen a Defender on the table before (I had only Rebels, my friend had only Scum).

 

I totally understand your apprehension, but don’t be scared. It’s in the best interest of their gaming community to be friendly to new players, plus I’d like to think people can just be nice sometimes.

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12 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think "tactical miniatures game" is sort of a misnomer. X-Wing is basically a 2D card game. 

I also think that, while "only slightly above the power curve" doesn't have a huge effect in casual games, slight differences in list power make a huge difference when everyone knows what they're doing. 

Hence my argument.

Use the big fun expensive format for casual play

Use the small balanced accessible format for tournaments

I'd think you're right for first Ed, but I havnt seen anything I could crutch on in second Ed

For example, pre errata x7 defenders just wouldn't die. K,turn, bump em, obstacles...who cares? **** was nigh invincible. Or mindlink spam, where just one action would fill out you're entire squad

2nd Ed has been REALLY good about not letting you overpower your opponent at the matchmaking stage, because everything is vincible from current experience (except 1v1 defender, but that's your fault for not killing it before the late game)

Basically, the game part of the game matters a lot more than it used to, which means that there's far more options ito what is good

 

Now to be VERY SPECIFIC I DO NOT think everything is viable. I believe that Xwings, fangs, and Boba (and ties but I don't like em) are all very competitive

In fact, I think Xwings are just about the only rebel ships worth a **** ATM, and going extended only gets you Sabine shuttle and moldy crow 

Havnt really tried Saw's Uwings though, but from my experience if it ain't got boost/aileron/decloak/slam it's gonna get jousted to death 

Plus, if my estimate of what is competitive holds to be true, the Second Edition standard play is going to be stale as **** till we get more stuff 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Yay, a thread specifically on this topic, which I'll happily bump daily...hourly...as much as I can until I get banned?...!

Second Edition, all the way.  

  • You're a new player, show up to your first game night, tournament, whatever.  You have your Trench Run list.  You already don't know a lot about the game, you're probably going to run over rocks.  Someone kills your list in 15 minutes with Jonus Barrage Bombers.  
    • Worst case: You think the game is dumb and never come back.
    • Best case: You ask your veteran opponent what just happened, they explain about these Extended ships and how you can buy the 1.0 version of them and the 2.0 conversion kit and you spend a bunch of money and do that and you're all in.
    • Best case that's more likely: You ask your veteran opponent what just happened, they explain about these Extended ships and how you can buy the 1.0 version of them and the 2.0 conversion and you may not think the game is dumb, but you think you're better off playing with friends and never come back.

Communities aren't going to grow without welcoming new players.  It's not just about the format for large events, it's about how new players are going to get acclimated.  It's about casual game nights, it's about local tournaments, it's about all of it.  

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Let's step outside the game for a moment, and look at what stores are going through. If FFG says "Second Edition only for events," where's the incentive to buy the leftover First Edition stock? Stores will have to slash prices just to move the merchandise, which will ultimately be bad for them (and us).

By providing conversion kits, that allow stores to keep selling the first edition ships, even to new players. I think making Second Edition only for game night kits, etc. Would be a mistake for our FLGS'.

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5 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Let's step outside the game for a moment, and look at what stores are going through. If FFG says "Second Edition only for events," where's the incentive to buy the leftover First Edition stock? Stores will have to slash prices just to move the merchandise, which will ultimately be bad for them (and us).

By providing conversion kits, that allow stores to keep selling the first edition ships, even to new players. I think making Second Edition only for game night kits, etc. Would be a mistake for our FLGS'.

Eh, like, I see what you're saying, but it's a lot better for stores to have new stuff to sell than some old stuff that's harder to sell. Besides, there's always people filling out conversions, and now that prices on individual models have increased, for large amounts of stuff, 1.0+conversions is still cheaper, so it still sells. 

Stores are in a terrible place if a game dies, which X-Wing might do without new players. 

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Each re-release ship is available to new players to use in the 2nd Edition format. 

Some extended format ships will not be available at all to new players. 

That makes the 2nd Edition format the correct choice for growing the community and creating a healthy tournament scene from store kit all the way up to worlds. 

Veterans shouldn't hesitate to continue to play extended casually (its fun to).

Just make sure to welcome New Players in every way possible including choice of format. 

Sending someone an invite to a tournament that includes a built in ban list for new players only isn't a great look. 

Have to think long term. New players are the future. The tournament scene should be structured accordingly. 

4BLq.gif

Should also say that many of those brand new players are probably going to eventually be much better at the game than us 1.0 scrubs. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Many new players will have zero access to pretty much all of the meta lists in extended.  

There is plenty of fun to be had competitively with 2nd Edition Only.

It will all get re-released eventually ideally in sync with the other factions schedules to keep each factions ship counts in the same ball park.

Whats the rush? 

Don't be a freezer geezer. 

 giphy.gif

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27 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Wow, that's news to me.

I guess I've been doing it wrong for the last 5 years.

No offense intended here, but you're not typical and you've also been very vocal about not playing 2.0 at all so this thread doesn't apply to you that much. 

13 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

The biggest problem right now with 2.0 only lists would be imperial list diversity.  You basically only have two flavors of tie swarm or Vader + mini swarm.  And as much as we all love tie fighters, watching two howlrunner swarms joust each other isn't very riveting.

You forgot the Reaper. There's plenty of diversity of list archetypes once you add that in and consider that there's Advanced's besides Vader, which are not quite the hot garbage these forums think they are. 

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2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Not sure people would have quit.

You're wrong.  I'm just about as X-Wing die-hard as it's possible to be, with tons of disposable income, and if FFG didn't let me use all my ships from the beginning of 2.0, I would have quit.  100%.  No question.  And if I would have quit, as invested as I am in X-Wing, there's a huge chunk of the player-base that would have quit.

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New players who only have access to wave 1 are fully competitive in extended format. Fangs are great, X-Wings and Y-Wings are great. The firespray and the scum falcon are great. In theory, the "second edition" format sounds like a good idea, but in practice, I think it is wholly unnecessary and will likely be abandoned shortly. Basically everything is fairly balanced at the moment, so a new player with Wave 1 ships and the core will be fully competitive with extended players. I got my $#!% kicked in the other day by a new player with a triple fang list (spoiler alert, they move super fast) and the other new players there were not having any issues keeping up with veteran players. The game is balanced, so a special newbie format is just unnecessary. 

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I see what people are saying about going into 2.0 with only the new stuff, but frankly? That's a "new player coming into a big game problem," more than anything else. Communities need to be good about providing new players with a welcoming environment, and part of that is done at the list building stage, but I don't think the 2.0 only format is a good way to set that up. For one thing, a lot of the initial buy-in is coming from returning players, and arbitrarily limiting what they can use is not ideal. But the bigger issue for me is that the 2.0 format has a really, really rocky patch coming up.

The 2.0 only format (Let's call it standard after the magic equivalent) is actually in a pretty good place right now (Provided Wave 14 is included. Which, just to be clear, it is. According to FFG's own App). The three factions are relatively balanced against each other both in power and options (Scum has one more ship, but the Rebels and Empire have more pilots for their flagship vessel). But Wave 2 throws a wrench in all that. Scum pulls solidly ahead of the other factions in the options area because the other two Wave 1 factions get with nothing new. Meanwhile the Resistance gets a meager but manageable choice of two ships, while the First Order is stuck with just the deluxe tie fighter, which pays for stuff it doesn't need to do its primary job. And with Wave 3 focused on the Prequels, going to be 6-8 months before these issues are adressed. That's a pretty long period to shackle a newly released game with a bromen flagship format.

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7 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You're wrong.  I'm just about as X-Wing die-hard as it's possible to be, with tons of disposable income, and if FFG didn't let me use all my ships from the beginning of 2.0, I would have quit.  100%.  No question.  And if I would have quit, as invested as I am in X-Wing, there's a huge chunk of the player-base that would have quit.

When you say "use" do you mean at minimum casually or specifically that if FFG did not make extended the tournament format you would have quit? 

Edited by Boom Owl

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10 minutes ago, Squark said:

That's a "new player coming into a big game problem," more than anything else.

Its not. 

We were all new players at one time. 

But never had to deal with the potential inability to purchase this many ships/cards. Y-Wing and K-Wing shortages aside. 

For me this isn't about a high buy in. 

Its more specifically about some players not even being able to buy in at all. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

New players will only play tournaments if they can compete, and only can if the tournament is new-release-only. Old players, on the other hand, will do whatever to make sure they can meet tournament guidelines. 

This is just patently untrue. Wave 1 only lists have no issues whatsoever competing with extended ships. Where are you getting this idea that wave 1 ships aka Vader, Luke, Boba, Fangs, Saw's Renegades, Y-Wings, and Scum Falcon are just so much worse than the conversion kit ships? What extended ships are you worried about? All of the brand new players in my community seem to be having an absolute blast flying against Veterans and their converted ships.

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I disagree with the OP 100%

If FFG have balanced the game right then it doesn’t matter if you only have a few things like Core and 2.0 expansions. You should still be able to play. 

The gap between new and experienced players is pretty massive anyway so what does access to ships matter. 

There is still old stock. It’s not like new players can’t go and buy all the old ships and a conversion kit if they want. 

The community is so inviting, most new players get given stuff to pay with. 

 

I think limited formats are for new players, they are just for interest value and keeping old players from making the meta game stale.  

The game has always catered well to new players, that is why it has seen growth. Nothing really changes in 2.0. 

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5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

When you say "use" do you mean at minimum casually or specifically that if FFG did not make extended the tournament format you would have quit? 

I play both casually and competitively.  I've spent about three years with the vast majority of my ships unusable in competitive play, and only slightly more viable in high-level casual play.  (And other casual play, like HotAC, has a quite limited list of ships it's balanced for, including nothing beyond Wave 6.)

So I mean "use my ships" in both casual and competitive, but obviously less so in the former, because that's more a function of what sorts of casual play one does, and not a matter of Organized Play just saying "newwwwp."

So yeah, if 2.0 were the standard tournament format, instead of "extended," I'd be out.  I have too many ships I have never been able to fly competitively or in high-level casual play.

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9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its not. 

We were all new players at one time. 

But never had to deal with the potential inability to purchase this many ships/cards. Y-Wing and K-Wing shortages aside. 

For me this isn't about a high buy in. 

Its more specifically about some players not even being able to buy in at all. 

Those were very, very long periods where crucial competitive options were unavailable to new players. Probably at least as long as we're going to have to wait for the re-release of the most popular old ships. So I can't say I see your point there.

Still, my main issue with "2.0 Standard" is that the next two waves are terrible for such a format. It'd be like WotC releasing a MTG expansion that was 75% white cards and then releasing another expansion that was focused on a whole new color. Standard would be a colossal mess for months.

Edited by Squark

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Yeah, still havnt seen any good reason to artificially limit play variety 

Welcoming new players is the job of the community, as is explaining what's going on and that they DO NOT need to play extended to be competitive

And it's also the job of the community to lend models and encourage proxies etc so they don't have to jump into the deep end with cement shoes (financially speaking) 

Be the experience you feel a new player deserves, don't force it on everyone because some feel the need to coddle them 

Which will probably just be counterproductive if anyone recommend a new player to buy a 1st Ed collection on the cheap and then use a conversion kit for huge value 

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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With 30+ years of experiences I would say that communities are built by the front men in the stores and organizing official events more than the mere game format. A wrong one could make a bad job made by the bad crew worse, but no good format could improve it. A shopkeeper must know how to do his job. And if and when to take the risks. Communities die when those people lack initiative and drive to animate the show. Because the tournament ARE a show. A good sport match. To which people must be seduced. To many shopper seat down on their back, a defeated demeanor depressing any chance to make something work if it would require too much commitment from them

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33 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

No offense intended here, but you're not typical and you've also been very vocal about not playing 2.0 at all so this thread doesn't apply to you that much. 

So yes, I was being snarky, and no, I'm not offended.

OTOH, that statement applies to me very much.

Because if that's how all players, and more importantly FFG, views this game, it's no surprise that. . .

There are no missions

There is no campaign

There is no Epic (yet)

There are no releases like the Shuttle Tydirium that aren't tourna-worthy and are based only on IP narrative.

If FFG thinks that every single player needs to be converted to a token-craving, alt-art-seeking, tournament-winning X-Winginest Illuminati. . .

. . .then it is no wonder that I find the game unsatisfying.

The sad thing is that I think your viewpoint is what drives the game.  Since 2.0 is a re-buy-in, with no sign of a change in any of the above, it is one of the largest factors in why I have decided to get off the ride.

I'm not quitting because of the cost of conversion, I'm lowering my interesting in this game to correspond with my expectations for its future development into something that actually promotes casual play--directly.

Which is something close to nothing.

 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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I don't see the problem, just let the new guys proxy for causal and borrow stuff as needed for competitive if they want to run things they can't buy. This is what we did pre 2.0 so I don't see any reason to change that for 2.0.

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