I disagree with FFG greatly on OP formats

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

In the Nova open speech, Alex said that the majority of competitive events will be the unlimited format, and the new-release-only format (which he called the "limited" format) will be secondary, with a few more casual events but only up to the stores to decide to implement "if they think they need new players."

I feel like that's backwards.

Like, they should make most events, and all the top tier events 2.0-only to be more fair. But at the low level do whatever you want, including conversions.

People who are "good" practice for top-tier events. So if you make top-tier events new release only, you avoid the NPE of "the good player at the store keeps crushing me with stuff I can't even buy"

I just want people who want to play competitive games to be playing new release only. It's more balanced for one, and it's more accessible and exciting for new players.

If you like B-Wings so much, fly 'em casual. If you want to fly competitive, wait for your B-Wings like everyone else.

My community is mostly dead and the only hope for X-Wing here is to have new players join.

There's a reason I'm posting this here besides just dumping a ****storm. I want FFG and others here to see this because I am an old player, have been playing this game for 5 years, have spent thousands of dollars on stuff and several hundred more on conversions, and yet I'd much rather have a healthy game that new players join than be able to fly all my old ships right away. 

I want to tell new players to play X-Wing. I really do. It's a great game. But the $1000 buy-in means I just can't justify telling people to play this game. Moreover, saying "go find all this stuff on eBay" really doesn't build confidence in the game at all. 

[LordFajubi 1,308]

I haven’t seen many new players at all, just my observation, but it is an observation.

Edited September 21, 2018 by LordFajubi

[Vineheart01 6,403]

personally i have not seen a single new player.

Returning players yes, but new? none. Not a one. And between the groups i play in, thats around 30 people (ignoring how often they actually show up of course)

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

Perhaps a chicken and egg situation though. Should we decide to make the game unfriendly to new players just because we don't see any? What if we don't see new players because every time they show up on these forums, we tell them to go buy a bazillion things on eBay?

[Tvboy 3,531]

Nothing’s stopping a new player from bringing their 2.0 only list to an unlimited event.

Imagine if FFG hadn’t released the conversion kits? Most tournament players would have quit the OP in outrage. Banning all non-2.0 ships from tournament play is effectively the same thing as not releasing the conversion kits for the players that like to play in competitive tournaments.

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

Not sure people would have quit.

look how many people exploded about "needing to buy" conversion kits for stuff they'd "already paid for". And yet they're still here...

X-Wing players may complain a lot but the only time they ever quit is when the game itself just isn't fun. 

[viedit 1,928]

Purely anecdotal, but most "new" players that I see have really been beer and pretzel players with friends in their kitchens/basements.  It's not until they get comfortable with the game that they show up in public and want to play against other people.  These players share a lot of ships between themselves and are usually pretty invested into the game already (own a lot of ships).

I don't see many players that just roll into a store, see that it's something they want to try and walks out with a core and a half dozen expansions.  There are A LOT of disenfranchised "beer and pretzel" players out there.  Allowing conversions keeps them interested and they'll continue to support the community.  

The "new" player process will continue to be a home brew thing of players that slowly build up a collection and comfort before they wade into the public/competitive realm.

[FTS Gecko 24,199]

I disagree.  Most of the people I know would prefer to be able to play their full collection in competitive events.

Regarding new players, there were a couple of people playing trial games with the core set at our launch event, and a couple of people showing a lot of interest and asking questions.  Our store also runs beginner's nights to help introduce people to the game.

[ficklegreendice 34,363]

Eh, mixed feelings

First is new players probably won't be at (or place well at) high level events so...who cares? Store champs and local scenes are what you should focus on when fostering communities

 

Second is it doesn't matter what's allowed so long as everyone has SOME access to SOMETHING good

For example, if I get two veteran players and give one only Second Ed stuff while the other gets everything, their lists should still be comparable in strength

And, strictly imo ofc, four Xwings can compete with anything...so we're good there ?

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

I would argue that the conversion kits appease those "disenfranchised beer and pretzels players".

Casual play can be whatever you want.

what keeps new players interested is the thought of competing and becoming one of the "X-Wing Illuminati" of "good players who win stuff". They can't do that now without a massive buy-in, and thus, I think they're gonna check it out, decide it's not their thing, and then leave. 

I just think it's stupid. 

New players will only play tournaments if they can compete, and only can if the tournament is new-release-only. Old players, on the other hand, will do whatever to make sure they can meet tournament guidelines. 

Anecdotally, how many casual-night games are not standard 200/6? Almost all players are practicing for the tournaments. If tournaments are new-release-only, it's much more likely that the new players will be able to find a balanced game. 

[Tvboy 3,531]

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Not sure people would have quit.

look how many people exploded about "needing to buy" conversion kits for stuff they'd "already paid for". And yet they're still here...

X-Wing players may complain a lot but the only time they ever quit is when the game itself just isn't fun. 

It’s more like, making 90% of people’s collections unplayable until FFG catches up with their 1st edition catalog over the next few years  would have been too much for people and driven them to other games, if not permanently then temporarily, which would have gutted the year 1 player population.

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

1 minute ago, Tvboy said:

It’s more like, making 90% of people’s collections unplayable until FFG catches up with their 1st edition catalog over the next few years  would have been too much for people and driven them to other games, if not permanently then temporarily, which would have gutted the year 1 player population.

Again, that stuff wouldn't be unplayable. It just would only be usable in casual games or alternative tournament formats. 

[Chumbalaya 2,128]

I agree.

2.0 should be the competitive format, Extended for casual play.

[defkhan1 1,696]

3.0 when?

[ficklegreendice 34,363]

You don't need a massive buy-in to do well competitively

Every ship in wave 1 (albeit, the TIE Advance least of all) is very competitive

[Brunas 7,037]

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

You don't need a massive buy-in to do well competitively

Every ship in wave 1 (albeit, the TIE Advance least of all) is very competitive

Very viable in expanded?

It's too early for results, but I'd take very, very heavy bets that the lists that dominate the gold squadron classic this weekend are not anywhere close to legal in the second edition format.

 

(OBLIGATORY HYPE HYPE HYPE @Musical Xeno @Musical Xeno @Musical Xeno TUNE IN THIS WEEK AT TWITCH.TV/GOLDSQUADRONPODCAST)

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

You don't need a massive buy-in to do well competitively

Every ship in wave 1 (albeit, the TIE Advance least of all) is very competitive

They're ok, but they're best balanced against each other. Most 2.0-only lists get eaten alive by Jonus Bombers, Sloane Striker Swarms, Defenders, etc

[ficklegreendice 34,363]

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

Very viable in expanded?

It's too early for results, but I'd take very, very heavy bets that the lists that dominate the gold squadron classic this weekend are not anywhere close to legal in the second edition format.

 

(OBLIGATORY HYPE HYPE HYPE @Musical Xeno @Musical Xeno @Musical Xeno TUNE IN THIS WEEK AT TWITCH.TV/GOLDSQUADRONPODCAST)

Should be fine

I haven't seen anything so ruinously overpowered that you can't beat it with a four ship list

Only concerning element is barrage bomber spam, but with boost and good obstacle use Xwings can certainly win 

1 minute ago, Kieransi said:

They're ok, but they're best balanced against each other. Most 2.0-only lists get eaten alive by Jonus Bombers, Sloane Striker Swarms, Defenders, etc

Jonus' bombers  are a concern, sure, but never seen a Striker swarm or single defender that couldn't be beaten

Most of the issue I've seen is players treating 2nd Ed like it's first Ed and just mashing two modded lists against each other and that's not how things work anymore

I ESPECIALLY see not enough people taking advantage of goddang Servomotors that DEFINE the xwing

Anything with boost and decent enough obstacle placement can best any kind of swarm 

[SpiderMana 2,606]

Let’s be real, how many new players can afford to buy in with more than a coreset and a couple expansion packs?

I realize they don’t have as many options without going second-hand, but it took me at least six months to attend a store tournament. They have time, and it gives their wallets a little breathing room for new stuff to come out.

[Brunas 7,037]

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Should be fine

I haven't seen anything so ruinously overpowered that you can't beat it with a four ship list

Only concerning element is barrage bomber spam, but with boost and good obstacle use Xwings can certainly win 

Jonus' bombers  are a concern, sure, but never seen a Striker swarm or single defender that couldn't be beaten

Most of the issue I've seen is players treating 2nd Ed like it's first Ed and just mashing two modded lists against each other and that's not how things work anymore

I ESPECIALLY see not enough people taking advantage of goddang Servomotors that DEFINE the xwing

Anything with boost and decent enough obstacle placement can best any kind of swarm 

I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but have you played a competitive card game before?  Something like Magic or Hearthstone immediately post rotation.  We're currently in the "golden age" which usually lasts a couple weeks or a month - everything seems great, if there's something out there that's way better than everything else, we don't know about it, because we haven't had time to find it.

 

Rest assured, we'll find these things that are dramatically better than everything else (and quickly), and there's a very high probability it's in expanded just because of the sheer quantity of cards there.

[Dain Ironfoot 180]

I am a new player and Ill admit I'm leery of attending a game night because 1) I only have the new 2.0 stuff, and 2) there would be so many cards/ships I don't know I'd always be like: wait, what does that do again? How did you do that? I'd probably be horrible to play with! lol.

I'm really excited to dive in but also somewhat tentative.

[ficklegreendice 34,363]

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but have you played a competitive card game before?  Something like Magic or Hearthstone immediately post rotation.  We're currently in the "golden age" which usually lasts a couple weeks or a month - everything seems great, if there's something out there that's way better than everything else, we don't know about it, because we haven't had time to find it.

 

Rest assured, we'll find these things that are dramatically better than everything else (and quickly), and there's a very high probability it's in expanded just because of the sheer quantity of cards there.

Sure I have

But this ain't a competitive card game, this is a tactical miniatures game

So long as we don't experience anything so stupidly above the curve (see first Ed) we should have a relatively open field

 

Relatively meaning I don't expect to see ANY non-Vader advance, but I believe Xwings can hack it due to their flexibility

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

1 minute ago, Dain Ironfoot said:

I am a new player and Ill admit I'm leery of attending a game night because 1) I only have the new 2.0 stuff, and 2) there would be so many cards/ships I don't know I'd always be like: wait, what does that do again? How did you do that? I'd probably be horrible to play with! lol.

I'm really excited to dive in but also somewhat tentative.

My local game store is trying to enforce 2.0-only play, but it's hard to force people to do. And it also means we can't get as much practice for the inevitable tournaments. 

I also just like the idea of a much smaller card pool. It's nice to try to challenge yourself to find out how to build the kind of list you like with only three or four ships. 

[Kyle Ren 6,840]

1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

Sure I have

But this ain't a competitive card game, this is a tactical miniatures game

So long as we don't experience anything so stupidly above the curve (see first Ed) we should have a relatively open field

 

Relatively meaning I don't expect to see ANY non-Vadee advance, but I believe Xwings can have it due to their flexibility

 

I think "tactical miniatures game" is sort of a misnomer. X-Wing is basically a 2D card game. 

I also think that, while "only slightly above the power curve" doesn't have a huge effect in casual games, slight differences in list power make a huge difference when everyone knows what they're doing. 

Hence my argument.

Use the big fun expensive format for casual play

Use the small balanced accessible format for tournaments

[Brunas 7,037]

2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Sure I have

But this ain't a competitive card game, this is a tactical miniatures game

So long as we don't experience anything so stupidly above the curve (see first Ed) we should have a relatively open field

 

Relatively meaning I don't expect to see ANY non-Vader advance, but I believe Xwings can hack it due to their flexibility

 

Ok, so even if you're presupposing that there's nothing dramatically under the power curve, which I find unlikely, but we can ignore for now.

If you're limiting yourself to the second edition only format, as rebels you do not have a ship you can bring for under 32 points.  The power level of the lists you can bring is limited, because having less options to less things makes your list less optimal by definition.  For example, let's just assume there's some really good second edition format rebel ship combos that come out to 165 points - in extended, you have all sorts of things that can fill that space.  In second edition, your only options to fill out the list are ywings with very few options - in unlimited, there are all sorts of great things to fill that space with.

 

Because of that alone, there are dramatically more iterations of "good stuff" that fit into a list, which drags the power level of extended way up over second edition.