Shadow of the Cabal Interviews Katrina Ostrander

[sndwurks 1,257]

25 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I do not count Hitomi as a 'character' in the Old5R canon, the second ruined female character is someone else. Otherwise, this is correct. 

Matsu Tsuko?

[AtoMaki 1,431]

1 minute ago, sndwurks said:

Matsu Tsuko?

Doji Shizue

[sndwurks 1,257]

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Doji Shizue

Huh. I can see that, though Shizue was also her OWN self-insert character for Ree Soesbee, and there is a certain scene in Ree's Crane Clan novel which still makes me go ".... h'okay", but I can see how John Wick's waifu overshadowed her.

[Hordeoverseer 157]

I originally thought we were talking about Doji Shizue being the ruiner of characters.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Hordeoverseer

[AtoMaki 1,431]

28 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

Huh. I can see that, though Shizue was also her OWN self-insert character for Ree Soesbee, and there is a certain scene in Ree's Crane Clan novel which still makes me go ".... h'okay", but I can see how John Wick's waifu overshadowed her.

In my opinion, despite her writing-related failings and how the story treated her, Shizue was still one of the best female Old5R characters. 

Whoever was Soesbee's beta reader at that time should feel ashamed and commit sudoku with a feather pen, what I want to say.  

[Alderaan Crumbs 441]

I’m so glad all this lore is fresh to me! It saves me from cross-pollination and frustrating dynamics. Everything will be new and beautiful. 

[Magnus Grendel 11,672]

3 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Actually, I think @AtoMaki was talking about Bayushi Kachiko, and how her depictions were... ahem... problematic, and both Mirumoto Hitomi and Otaku (now Utaku) Kamoko were pretty heavily sabotaged on not being allowed to overshadow her (though Hitomi would go on to be the center of an aborted villain arc).

Indeed. If we're talking about not being a bit...problematic..as you put it, then best avoid putting most of Bayushi Kachiko's card art (and Bayushi Kurumi for that matter) into the debate.

[AK_Aramis 1,002]

21 hours ago, sndwurks said:

What is meant by "done it right"?

Regarding the idea of an "omnipresent politicization", it is kind of hard to escape that L5R is rooted in a very American passion for the trappings of feudal Japan. Regarding gender representation, I would argue against any presence of politicization. If anything, FFG's policy is making it non-politicized. They issue no public statements above inclusivity or representation or anything, really. As a journalist, I have even approached them to get a solid quote on designer intent on the character of Bayushi Kyo as non-binary or genderfluid, and they have been very careful not to make ANY official statement on the matter.

FFG lets their product stand alone. Their first fiction featured a powerful woman placed in charge of her Great Clan, dealing with her own unresolved anger at her father's neglect and abuse, while worrying about the safety of her husband and trying to think straight around the woman she is head over heels in love with. Try to imagine a major market AAA studio product doing that in the 1990's, and it is refreshing and uplifting to see just how far the hobby (and L5R in particular) has come in representation.

Or, perhaps, FFG is making a strongly political statement, but hiding behind non-comment so as not to draw the ire of the rising nationalist and "alt-right" (neofascist) movements, as well as many Christian biblical literalists, all of whom have been enraged by the the recent US courts' decisions. 

I strongly get the feeling FFG (and Asmodee) are far more politically adroit than you're giving credit for. Last thing they want is to trigger a right-wing hostile reaction during a period where the far- and alt- right are on the upsurge, and the not-quite-far hard right are in dominance in the US government. But at the same time, they want to tell the LGBTQ "we support you"... and note that FFG's staffers have been openly for public inclusivity.

Buying a property that is (in every prior edition) genderist to a near-historical degree and then deleting the genderism is itself a political statement. 

Of course, old-L5R wasn't entirely historical - it ignored that androgyny and homosexuality were not seen in historical nor modern Japan as the problems they were seen as in the western cultures up through the mid-20th C. Now, Meiji-era to the 1970's, it was not as socially accepted, but that's also the "Imitate western society" timeframe.  Likewise, homosexual sexual activity was banned in Japan for about 8 years. Starting in 1872, and ending in 1880. Good old Meiji.

So, making some of the relationships openly LGBQ is a move towards a more historical approach, but also a pro-LGBTQ endorsement in itself, considering the prior editions established disdain for homosexuals. (See the Way of the Clans books for 1E, especially Crab.) And in the US, where it's not socially settled, and not entirely legally settled, it's hard for me to see it as non-political. Even if they won't comment on it. (ISTR one of the developers commenting on it in a podcast, tho'.)

 

[Suzume Chikahisa 313]

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I do not count Hitomi as a 'character' in the Old5R canon, the second ruined female character is someone else. Otherwise, this is correct. 

With the advantage of hindsight it's very sad both how Kachiko, Kamoko, Hitomi and Tsuko had largely the same story beat, and how Kachiko took up so much of the narrative.

 

Tsuko at least seems to be getting some nuance this time around. When I read the old stories her frequent lack of agency really sticks out...

[Tonbo Karasu 2,606]

4 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

In my opinion, despite her writing-related failings and how the story treated her, Shizue was still one of the best female Old5R characters. 

Whoever was Soesbee's beta reader at that time should feel ashamed and commit sudoku with a feather pen, what I want to say.  

I'm not sure why the type of pen makes it any easier or more difficult to solve a number puzzle...

[ExplodingJoe 131]

I find inclusion refreshing.

Mostly though, I'm really glad the story is rebooting. I've edited out most everything that happened surrounding Daigotsu and the Shadow Dragon, just because none of it appealed to me. It's all a mess, and none of it was really compelling. I also find the depiction of the Ivory Kingdoms to be dull and bordering on some of that political debate happening above. Lucky I wrote myself a decent way to reset the timeline, so my players can still move into the new system with their old character's codified as history in a new Rokugan.

I'm interested to see how things play out this time, and if there is never again a Spider clan I won't be disappointed.

[ElSuave 273]

It's hard to imagine there won't be a Spider clan considering FFG has the option of using the Spider clan mon as your avatar on their forums.

[llamaman88 430]

I fully expect Mantis and Spider, but I think they're going to be fairly different because the FFG team seems to know what folks didn't like about those factions. Like I kind of doubt the Mantis will absorb a bunch of minor clans, despite how sad I'll be not to see Tsuruchi characters as Mantis's sub theme. I think that's why the stories so far have focussed around Kudaka.

[deraforia 169]

I'm about halfway through the interview, but I love everything I've heard so far. I'm especially interested in her background in PbP RP, the kind without dice. Since that is also where I entered into the RP world, I'm glad that she has some stewardship for this game and was able to bring her insights as someone who started in that environment.

[Mirith 1,304]

13 hours ago, ElSuave said:

It's hard to imagine there won't be a Spider clan considering FFG has the option of using the Spider clan mon as your avatar on their forums.

They added those in when they announced they had bought the game.  This was before they had made any decisions about where they would go with the story.

I personally think that the Spider Clan as a great clan is a terrible idea from a story perspective.  If they want an anti-hero clan (besides Scorpion), it needs to be something that is NOT Shadowlands, since it just doesn't make sense. 

[Vutall 128]

I have a feeling the Spider Mon will be used to represent the Lost and tainted samurai who ally with them. A clan so to speak, but nothing official or governed by the Empire. A mockery of it instead, as the Shadowlands, Jigoku, and Fu Leng tend to enjoy perverting the Empires ways.

[AtoMaki 1,431]

20 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Tsuko at least seems to be getting some nuance this time around. When I read the old stories her frequent lack of agency really sticks out...

I liked how Tsuko was Worst Girl but it was implied that she was in fact Best Girl. I hated how they literally cut her character short. They are going a little deeper with this implication in the new canon, but I think it is not enough. 

19 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'm not sure why the type of pen makes it any easier or more difficult to solve a number puzzle...

The change of difficulty is hard to notice until you have to fix a mistake on the grid. 

[TheWanderingJewels 226]

Tsuko died with her honor intact in the original edition, but I will be curious to see where this goes

[TheWanderingJewels 226]

On 9/26/2018 at 7:31 AM, sndwurks said:

I am also curious what left a bad taste if your mouth?

One of the things that I am liking about this new edition of L5R is that it is good at presenting Rokugani society as far less monolithic / oppressively conservative than previous editions. This world of Rokugan is more solidly grounded in the realistic, influenced by the modern society which has created it. Making it explicit that Rokugan is a society with equality between the genders (hooray for removal of the "If you want your Rokugan to be REALLY SEXIST" guidelines), with no social stigma linked to traditional Western gender roles and the cult of domesticity, where the problem with extra-marital affairs is the disloyalty to one's liege and duty, and not the identity (or gender) of the person it is with.

Um....it's an agrarian society with a warrior caste keeping a very tight grip on the peasantry and small merchant class, because there would be uprisings by the peasants given how down right abusive the Samurai could be if they felt like  their honor or life was at risk. Or they were in a bad mood at the moment. The historical punishments were down right horrible.  And also focused on consolidation and expansion of Familial (during regular times) or Individual Power (see the Sengoku period. Makes L5R treachery levels look down right tame). That also included making sure the family line would go on via marriage alliances with other ones that would (hopefully) keep agreements, but in the end, a samurai was expected to produce several heirs to keep the line going. 

I tend to see Rokugan as only slight more egalitarian in that their are more female led families (The Matsu and Utaku in particular), but are just as capable of honor and treachery as the other families. If anything, possibly slightly more, given the competition.

Given that sexual relations tended to be a very private going on in medieval Japan, which this game is based on, and the general mores being based on the society of time, a lot of people tended not to look too closely because it wasn't a lot of their business. Only when it came out in public displays (very uncouth that) would people pay attention, usually having a friend or family member pulling them quietly aside and telling them to knock it off and to grow up. Experimentation was allowed with younger people until marriage came along, then they were expected to straighten up. Torrid affairs would garner negative attention and possibly duels. 20th-21 Century Western sensibilities would likely result in a public lynching by the peasantry, if not the samurai. Modern viewpoints would not enter into it   

[Suzume Chikahisa 313]

8 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I liked how Tsuko was Worst Girl but it was implied that she was in fact Best Girl. I hated how they literally cut her character short. They are going a little deeper with this implication in the new canon, but I think it is not enough. 

That's why I'm still reserving judgement while mantaining some optimism. I really disliked her first appearance and was afraid they were going down the same route.

 

55 minutes ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

Tsuko died with her honor intact in the original edition, but I will be curious to see where this goes

I'd argue she didn't, but I tend to approach it from a Consequencialist perspective. Then again the immediate situation that lead to her death has, from a Doylist perspective, some aspects that were utter pants, so...

[AtoMaki 1,431]

7 hours ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

Um....it's an agrarian society with a warrior caste keeping a very tight grip on the peasantry and small merchant class, because there would be uprisings by the peasants given how down right abusive the Samurai could be if they felt like  their honor or life was at risk.

It is also a society that has its rules handed down by literal gods, with maybe the most prominent founder of said society being a goddess. We can safely assume that Rokugan works differently in the details than your average IRL feudal society. 

6 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

That's why I'm still reserving judgement while mantaining some optimism. I really disliked her first appearance and was afraid they were going down the same route.

That Tsuko PoV story started good, really good, but it went downhill very fast with that dumb story pick ruining everything. It is sad that the new canon has so much and so high-quality shipping and the person who gets shafted is - yet again! - poor Tsuko.

[TheWanderingJewels 226]

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

It is also a society that has its rules handed down by literal gods, with maybe the most prominent founder of said society being a goddess. We can safely assume that Rokugan works differently in the details than your average IRL feudal society. 

That Tsuko PoV story started good, really good, but it went downhill very fast with that dumb story pick ruining everything. It is sad that the new canon has so much and so high-quality shipping and the person who gets shafted is - yet again! - poor Tsuko.

Really? how'd she get the short end again? I've been trying to keep up with all the fictions

[AtoMaki 1,431]

33 minutes ago, TheWanderingJewels said:

Really? how'd she get the short end again? I've been trying to keep up with all the fictions

There is, like, a single sentence that shows actual relationship between Tsuko and Arasou and one short (but very nice) scene about Tsuko reflecting on it that is not MAXIMUM ANGER. I don't think that there is another couple in the New Canon that is denied of emotional founding like this. 

[Suzume Chikahisa 313]

On 9/29/2018 at 1:26 AM, TheWanderingJewels said:

Given that sexual relations tended to be a very private going on in medieval Japan, which this game is based on, and the general mores being based on the society of time, a lot of people tended not to look too closely because it wasn't a lot of their business. Only when it came out in public displays (very uncouth that) would people pay attention, usually having a friend or family member pulling them quietly aside and telling them to knock it off and to grow up. Experimentation was allowed with younger people until marriage came along, then they were expected to straighten up. Torrid affairs would garner negative attention and possibly duels. 20th-21 Century Western sensibilities would likely result in a public lynching by the peasantry, if not the samurai. Modern viewpoints would not enter into it   

Private???

Maybe during the Edo Bakufu, and even then, looking at some of the going-ons at Edo Castle...

Even if we ignore descritpions from the Jesuit letters, lots of court literature is anything but quaint, and I'm not even speaking of Shunga. Not to mention the plethora of public and official Shudo and concubinage contracts and pledges...

Takeda Shingen offed his own brother-in-law so that he could make his niece a concubine, while mantaining is long term affair with Kōsaka Masanobu. Hideyoshi was a notorious, and very public, womanizer... and they were only slightly more flamboyant than most of their peers.

 

More generally;  in regards to the early descriptions of Rokugan I was more bothered by how they tried to imitate Japan in some place but, then not others, haphazardly mixing this and that with little care for coherence, for example cribbing from the Titanomachy and then depicting Rokugan as a very strict Neo-Confucian land; trying to make Agnatic Primogeniture the norm for inheritance with dozens of female family founders around, justifying (some) sexism in Rokugan with real world history, but then almost completely ignoring the aceptabilty homosexuality (with a side order of the writing becoming more heteronormative and less inclusive in later editions). I've managed to come to terms with most of it, but if we must have a bit of an incoherent mess, then at least make it an inclusive incoherent mess.

FFG also seems to be more willing to touch on class issues and how Rokugan is completely ****** up for commoners to the point that I would actually like to see them re-imagine Void in the Heavens.

[Shosur0 73]

I'm so relieved that they tried to include diversity and correct sexism in this fictional world. I was losing my sleep over these issues. 

Sarcasm aside... I don't understand, with all due respect, all this emphasis of making a politically correct world... based on a feudal society? OK, so we add sexual diversity, cause we'll that's normal. Fine. And we'll make men and women equal, cause well that's how it should be. Perfect. Don't let anyone think we support any other idea than equality. 

But then... Why stop there? Heimin are less than samurai just because of birthright. Their lives belong to their lord, and they could be taken on a whim, right? (we know a Heimin can be killed on a whim... He didn't bow fast enough, or low enough, or I wanna test my new katana's edge). This sounds awfully like slavery to me. So we can have slaves but let's make sexuality diverse, etc. Why not remove heimin/peasants and have a casteless society... Lest someone thinks we condone slavery.

Why? Because then it wouldn't be Rokugan? My point is you can have fictional imperfect world and that doesn't mean you support any of what happens in there.

English is not my native tongue so I hope I have expressed my ideas correctly. Not meaning to stir any conflict. I just don't like tweaking fictional works just because "correction". Like what's happening with Ciri in the Witcher. I know what is right in the real world. No one is less than another. But let fiction be fiction. 

Besides that Im all hyped for the new edition and though the interview doesn't reveal much it shows Katrina loves the setting and she cares. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Shosur0