Dash 2.0 and Outrider need an FAQ -- or do they? [Answer: Yes, yes they do lol]

[wurms 5,295]

24 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Dash ignores the obstacle. Outrider doesn't.

EDIT:
1. Dash moves over asteroid.
2. Asteroid effect would trigger, but Dash ignores it.
3. Dash completes his maneuver.
4. Outrider checks if he moved through an obstacle. Sure did.
5. Profit.

This is wrong. Dash ignores obstacles. There is no asteroid to even consider if it would trigger.

1. Dash moves.

2. Dash completes his maneuver.

 

---------------------

I think many people need to clarify their understanding of overlap in 2.0. An overlap can only happen WHILE MOVING. After moving, aka after executing a maneuver, a ship on an obstacle is no longer overlapping, it is at Range 0 of the obstacle. This is important and I will state it again. An overlap only occurs while moving.

Lets just "ignore" ? the moving through an obstacle part of Outrider now that we understand what an overlap is in 2.0 and just focus on that, since it CAN ONLY OCCUR WHILE MOVING and DASH Ignores obstacles while moving.

Quote

While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object

if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object.

Dash ignores obstacles while moving, so he can NEVER overlap an object. Ever. Period.

Forget the moving through part as that is reserved for templates. Here is Dash executing a maneuver (which means he ignores the obstacle).

 

He DID NOT overlap an obstacle because an overlap can only occur WHILE MOVING.

Dash is now done moving and here he is at range 0 of an obstacle, not overlapping an obstacle (new for second edition).

 

Dash's template never touched an obstacle so he 100% did not move through an obstacle. We can all agree on that.

Quote

A ship moves through an object if the template is placed on that object when

the ship moves.

Dash can never overlap an object because he ignores them and an overlap only occurs while moving. At his resting state after executing a maneuver, he is at range 0 of an object.

Does Outrider trigger?

Before you answer, just know that the rules on page 13 clearly state that if a ship overlaps an obstacle, is suffers the effects of that obstacle. 

Quote

 

While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an

obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on

the type of obstacle:

 

 

[SOTL 3,229]

Past tense.

Present tense.

Past tense.

Present tense.

Past tense.

Present tense.

Are we getting through to you.  At all?  I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[hargleblarg 601]

4 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Past tense.

Present tense.

Past tense.

Present tense.

Past tense.

Present tense.

Are we getting through to you.  At all?  I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You might be, because you can't seem to comprehend that the rules as written are unclear.

I don't care which way FFG faqs this. What I care about is FFG improving its loose card text problem and tightening things up. I have played FFG card games for years and they never seem to get better about this.

[xbeaker 341]

Per Alex it works, the reasoning is Dash's ability is in effect "WHILE" he is moving  Outrider is "AFTER".  The obstacle didn't leave the table, it isn't "not there".  Dash just ignores it's effect while moving, thus ignore the damage/stress/loss of action that can occur while moving though them.  Outrider is an After the fact ability.  Now that he is done moving, did he move though?  If yes then remove a red/orange token.  

I was on the side of it not working, but when explained that way, it actually makes sense that they work together.. and of course, obviously FFG intended them to work together. 

I expect it to be FAQ'd for clarity soon anyway.

Edited September 24, 2018 by xbeaker

[hargleblarg 601]

2 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Per Alex it works, the reasoning is Dash's ability is in effect "WHILE" he is moving  Outrider is "AFTER".  The obstacle didn't leave the table, it isn't "not there".  Dash just ignores it's effect while moving, thus ignore the damage/stress/loss of action that can occur while moving though them.  Outrider is and After the fact.  Now that he is done moving, did he move though?  If yes then remove a red/orange token.  

I was on the side of it not working, but when explained that way, it actually makes sense that they work together.. and of course, obviously FFG intended them to work together. 

I expect it to be FAQ'd for clarity soon anyway.

That will be great if this is the case. I hope they take note of this sloppy use of the word "ignore" in the future.

[wurms 5,295]

1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

Per Alex it works, the reasoning is Dash's ability is in effect "WHILE" he is moving  Outrider is "AFTER".  The obstacle didn't leave the table, it isn't "not there".  Dash just ignores it's effect while moving, thus ignore the damage/stress/loss of action that can occur while moving though them.  Outrider is an After the fact ability.  Now that he is done moving, did he move though?  If yes then remove a red/orange token.  

I was on the side of it not working, but when explained that way, it actually makes sense that they work together.. and of course, obviously FFG intended them to work together. 

I expect it to be FAQ'd for clarity soon anyway.

Im 100% certain they will FAQ Dash to work with outrider since its his **** ship.  But its FFGs wording on cards, that is still inconsistent, that is a problem. Doesn't matter if Alex said it works or not. Frank had said many abilities did this or that in 1.0 and a month later a FAQ ruled differently. And again, Dash doesn't just ignore the effects of obstacles, because he can have his template barrel roll off/onto them. Its more than ignoring just the effects.

FFG had all that room for text and got lazy on Dash. Collision detector has no problems, because they clearly spell out what you can and cant do, not leaving it to interpretation.

Dash should read similar to collision detector to keep him the same AND work with Outrider:

Quote

While you boost or barrel roll, you can move through and overlap obstacles. While you move through or overlap an obstacle, you ignore it's effects.

 

[Pewpewpew BOOM 1,246]

5 hours ago, hargleblarg said:

That will be great if this is the case. I hope they take note of this sloppy use of the word "ignore" in the future.

This!

Any game used specific term and mechanics that are ordered and defined. When rule wordings use terms undefined within the context of the game (like “ignore” in this case), clarity and consensus among players breaks down, which is rarely good or fun. 

[xbeaker 341]

6 hours ago, wurms said:

This is wrong. Dash ignores obstacles. There is no asteroid to even consider if it would trigger.

1. Dash moves.

2. Dash completes his maneuver.

Dash does not "Ignore Obstacles" Dash "Ignores Obstacles while moving". I know this seems a bit nit picky, but is it central to understanding how he interacts with the Outrider title.  While he is moving he ignores them, the effect of moving over them are ignored, and the restrictions on boosting/barrel rolling on to them are ignored.  That is key is that obstacles can only have their effect while moving per the RRG "While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle"

 

6 hours ago, wurms said:

I think many people need to clarify their understanding of overlap in 2.0. An overlap can only happen WHILE MOVING. After moving, aka after executing a maneuver, a ship on an obstacle is no longer overlapping, it is at Range 0 of the obstacle. This is important and I will state it again. An overlap only occurs while moving.

Lets just "ignore" ? the moving through an obstacle part of Outrider now that we understand what an overlap is in 2.0 and just focus on that, since it CAN ONLY OCCUR WHILE MOVING and DASH Ignores obstacles while moving.

You are correct, overlap occurs during the move. "While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object."
 

6 hours ago, wurms said:

Dash ignores obstacles while moving, so he can NEVER overlap an object. Ever. Period.

Forget the moving through part as that is reserved for templates. Here is Dash executing a maneuver (which means he ignores the obstacle).

 

He DID NOT overlap an obstacle because an overlap can only occur WHILE MOVING.

Dash is now done moving and here he is at range 0 of an obstacle, not overlapping an obstacle (new for second edition).

This is where you are wrong.  That he is ignoring it does NOT mean it didn't occur.  A girl walking down the street can ignore the construction worker cat calling.  That does not mean he never did it.
 

6 hours ago, wurms said:

Dash's template never touched an obstacle so he 100% did not move through an obstacle. We can all agree on that.

Yeah, but moving though, much like overlapping occurs during the move.  Even if the template did touch the obstacle, he would ignore it.  Though that would not change that it happened.  He ignored while moving.
 

6 hours ago, wurms said:

Dash can never overlap an object because he ignores them and an overlap only occurs while moving. At his resting state after executing a maneuver, he is at range 0 of an object.

Does Outrider trigger?

Before you answer, just know that the rules on page 13 clearly state that if a ship overlaps an obstacle, is suffers the effects of that obstacle.

Outrider absolutely triggers.  I understand the rule per pg.13  I think you need to pay very close attention to the wording:
"OBSTACLES
Obstacles act as hazards that can disrupt and damage ships. A ship can suffer effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of obstacles. While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:"  [damage effects + loss of action/stress listed]  "While a ship is moving, but not executing a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an obstacle, it executes its move as normal but suffers an effect based on the type of obstacle:" [damage effects + stress listed] "While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects. • Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks."

So this tells us that Dash ignores the damage/stress/loss of action from obstacles because he ignores them while moving.  After the move is complete we check the Outrider trigger.  In your example did he move though an obstacle?  No.  Did he overlap" Yes.  Note the title very specifically does not ask if he is at range 0, yet states "After you fully execute a maneuver, if you moved through or overlapped an obstacle, you may remove 1 of your red or orange tokens." Moved and overlapped are both past tense.  

So simply put, Dash stops ignoring obstacles once he stops moving.  But the move through or overlap did occur. 

I agree that 'ignore' should have been made more clear, "While you boost or barrel roll, you can move through and overlap obstacles. While you move through or overlap an obstacle, you ignore it's effects." is indeed perfect.
 

5 hours ago, wurms said:

And again, Dash doesn't just ignore the effects of obstacles, because he can have his template barrel roll off/onto them. Its more than ignoring just the effects.

This is why they say he can ignore them instead of ignore the effects..  It was (I believe) FFG's attempt at short hand for the above.  But they once again failed to take into consideration how it could be misunderstood.

[hargleblarg 601]

1 hour ago, xbeaker said:

So this tells us that Dash ignores the damage/stress/loss of action from obstacles because he ignores them while moving.  After the move is complete we check the Outrider trigger.  In your example did he move though an obstacle?  No.  Did he overlap" Yes.  Note the title very specifically does not ask if he is at range 0, yet states "After you fully execute a maneuver, if you moved through or overlapped an obstacle, you may remove 1 of your red or orange tokens." Moved and overlapped are both past tense.  
 

I can't speak to overlapping, but according to the rrg, moved through an obstacle is something that's determined while moving. If Dash is truly ignoring obstacles while moving, then he didn't move through any obstacle because he's ignoring them. Any effect thanks checks for moved through an obstacle after the fact should refer to when the check happened. Again, this is a specific gamestate check defined in the rrg. The words Moved Through are bolded. It is clearly defined. RRG pg. 13.

If they faq that outrider works with Dash, that's fine. It's pretty clear when a template does or doesn't overlap. But this is a troublesome precedent for future ignoring of game states that are not as obvious, such as distance. I hope they clean up their wording in the future.

 

[edit]: poor reading comprehension on my part; you never disputed the moved through clause in your post. Clearly bedtime.

Edited September 25, 2018 by hargleblarg
Correction

[Lightrock 856]

It basically comes down to the interpretation of what Dash's ability actually does: 

1. He does overlap or move through obstacles but he just ignores that fact and acts as if he didn't.

2. He doesn't overlap or move through anything. Obstacles simply cease to exist for him.

In the first case Outrider will work. Dash might have ignored the fact of moving through/overlapping the obstacle while executing the maneuver but looking back it's clear he did so.

In the second case Outrider will not trigger. Of course in real life the player could see that the template or the base of the ship landed on top of a piece of cardboard that represents an obstacle but rules-wise, there was nothing there and nothing did happen, even if you look back at it after obstacles are no longer ignored.

Considering the exact wording of Dash's ability I'm more convinced by the second interpretation though I agree that it is unintuitive and probably unintended. Needs to be FAQed for sure.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Lightrock

[Cuz05 3,458]

If ignoring things made them not exist, the world would be a very different place.

I have children, I would be in trouble.

[Frimmel 2,560]

I see a lot of folks talking about "ignore" being the problem. We're not having any four page thread arguments about the use of "ignore" on Instinctive Aim.

Why?

[Boreas Mun 175]

You are right. Dash ignoring obstacles doesn't mean anything. He should still suffer every effect because ignoring things doesn't made them not exist. He should be dead if he ignores obstacles while moving. Try it yourself!

Edited September 25, 2018 by Boreas Mun

[Lightrock 856]

23 minutes ago, Boreas Mun said:

You are right. Dash ignoring obstacles doesn't mean anything. He should still suffer every effect because ignoring things doesn't made them not exist. He should be dead if he ignores obstacles while moving. Try it yourself!

Haha! Exactly. People arguing that ignoring something doesn't make it not exist are omitting the fact that we are not discussing the real world meaning of the word "ignore" but what it means in the game. IRL you can ignore an obstacle in your path but obviously you'll get hurt all the same. In the game "ignore" clearly means "this element of the game does not apply to you" which is very different from the real world meaning. The question is what exactly doesn't apply - the rules concerning obstacles or the obstacles themselves. Unfortunately the rulebook does not answer that question but the wording seems to indicate the latter is true.

[KaLeu 247]

[sharrrp 444]

So for those of you arguing that Dash turns off Outrider, it seems like your argument hinges on the in game definition of "ignore" which is currently undefined by FFG. It would seem that at present the absolute best you can say is that the rules are ambiguous on this point (and to be fair that could go for the "Dash works with Outrider" crowd as well).

However, Outrider IS Dash's ship in exactly the same way that the Millennium Falcon is Han's.  The actual name of the ship he flies in the original fiction in which he appears.

Are you really going to stake your flag and choose this hill to die on adamantly declaring that a pilot cannot use the ability of his own ship? It seems very silly to me to take that position when the RAW are ambiguous.

[Maui. 2,802]

14 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

So for those of you arguing that Dash turns off Outrider, it seems like your argument hinges on the in game definition of "ignore" which is currently undefined by FFG. It would seem that at present the absolute best you can say is that the rules are ambiguous on this point (and to be fair that could go for the "Dash works with Outrider" crowd as well).

However, Outrider IS Dash's ship in exactly the same way that the Millennium Falcon is Han's.  The actual name of the ship he flies in the original fiction in which he appears.

Are you really going to stake your flag and choose this hill to die on adamantly declaring that a pilot cannot use the ability of his own ship? It seems very silly to me to take that position when the RAW are ambiguous.

No, pretty much to a man I've seen everyone on this side say "RAW there seems to be a conflict in which Dash doesn't get full utility from Outrider, which is obviously ridiculous, so this interaction needs an FAQ for rules clarity"

See Scum Han & Qi'ra, who are obviously intended to work together, but as written kinda seems like they don't.

[Lightrock 856]

Exactly. No one disputes that Dash SHOULD work with Outrider. Unfortunately according to current RAW it seems he doesn't.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Lightrock

[xbeaker 341]

7 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

Exactly. No one disputes that Dash SHOULD work with Outrider. Unfortunately according to current RAW it seems he doesn't.

No, according to the RAW as you interpret the word 'ignore' he doesn't.  But as I explained above.  That he can ignore an obstacle when he flies past it or over it doesn't mean he didn't move past it or over it. 

The recent argument that "ignoring a wall doesn't mean it won't hurt you if you walk into it"  So the only 2 options for something to exist are you ram straight into it or it doesn't exist at all?!  Man, tell that to a cop next time you get pulled over for a speeding ticket. "Sir, you were doing 80 in a 45"  "Sorry officer, I was ignoring the sign so it didn't exist at all.  And I can prove it didn't exist because I didn't ram straight into it!" That speed limit sign is still there.. Dash just has diplomatic immunity and can ignore it. 

I'll admit it isn't 100% clear, but it certainly isn't 'RAW' that it doesn't work.  That is simply some people's (incorrect) interpretation.  RAW "While moving ignore..."  "After moving if..."  It doesn't say after moving if you were affected by, only that you moved over or overlapped.  Were it 100% clear either way there would be no discussion, so you can't call RAW on this as an absolute.

At this point it has been explained as best it can. Anyone who still thinks they don't work together is simply being stubborn in arguing that Dash somehow causes obstacles to pop out of existence, to fight for Dash not being able to utilize his own ship. 

RAW may be fuzzy, but the clearest interpretation is they DO work together.  And RAI is crystal clear.  The FAQ is obviously going to come down on the side of Dash getting to use Outrider, So to @sharrrp's point, why are you fighting it?  Learn to play the ship, and play against it with the rules we all know are going to be confirmed soon.  

[SOTL 3,229]

51 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

No, pretty much to a man I've seen everyone on this side say "RAW there seems to be a conflict in which Dash doesn't get full utility from Outrider, which is obviously ridiculous, so this interaction needs an FAQ for rules clarity"

See Scum Han & Qi'ra, who are obviously intended to work together, but as written kinda seems like they don't.

RAW, Han and Qi'ra don't work together.

RAW, Dash and Outrider do.

[Maui. 2,802]

Just now, SOTL said:

RAW, Han and Qi'ra don't work together.

RAW, Dash and Outrider do.

Well, we disagree there. I'm sure you'd agree that a FAQ clarification would be welcome, if only to save us from each other ?

[mazz0 2,869]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:28 PM, ArbitraryNerd said:

Most instances of "clearly needs an FAQ" are actually just errors in reading comprehension and certain parties wanting to be correct

 

On 9/21/2018 at 8:50 PM, ArbitraryNerd said:

... Yeah, I think folks here are just looking for trouble.

I think you’re being needlessly confrontational and offensive.  If you think someone’s wrong just argue the point, there’s no need to cast aspersions on their motivation or insult their intelligence.

[Talonbane Cobra 1,022]

If the problem is genuinely with their intelligence though, what can you do?

[Lightrock 856]

3 hours ago, xbeaker said:

No, according to the RAW as you interpret the word 'ignore' he doesn't.  But as I explained above.  That he can ignore an obstacle when he flies past it or over it doesn't mean he didn't move past it or over it. 

The recent argument that "ignoring a wall doesn't mean it won't hurt you if you walk into it"  So the only 2 options for something to exist are you ram straight into it or it doesn't exist at all?!  Man, tell that to a cop next time you get pulled over for a speeding ticket. "Sir, you were doing 80 in a 45"  "Sorry officer, I was ignoring the sign so it didn't exist at all.  And I can prove it didn't exist because I didn't ram straight into it!" That speed limit sign is still there.. Dash just has diplomatic immunity and can ignore it. 

I'll admit it isn't 100% clear, but it certainly isn't 'RAW' that it doesn't work.  That is simply some people's (incorrect) interpretation.  RAW "While moving ignore..."  "After moving if..."  It doesn't say after moving if you were affected by, only that you moved over or overlapped.  Were it 100% clear either way there would be no discussion, so you can't call RAW on this as an absolute.

At this point it has been explained as best it can. Anyone who still thinks they don't work together is simply being stubborn in arguing that Dash somehow causes obstacles to pop out of existence, to fight for Dash not being able to utilize his own ship. 

RAW may be fuzzy, but the clearest interpretation is they DO work together.  And RAI is crystal clear.  The FAQ is obviously going to come down on the side of Dash getting to use Outrider, So to @sharrrp's point, why are you fighting it?  Learn to play the ship, and play against it with the rules we all know are going to be confirmed soon.  

If devs did a reasonably good job with Dash, the text on his card would read:

"When you move through or overlap an obstacle, you ignore it's effects. You may perform barrel roll and boost actions that would cause you to overlap or move through an obstacle."

Unfortunately this is not what the card says. It does not tell you to ignore the effects of the obstacles or to ignore the restrictions on repositioning through them. It says to ignore obstacles altogether. While the term "ignore" is not clearly defined, it implies there can be no interaction whatsoever between Dash and obstacles or he would no longer be ignoring them. Moving through and overlapping an obstacle are clearly defined game events resulting from interactions between two objects in the game (a ship and an obstacle) and these interactions simply cannot happen if one of the objects is ignored.  It would be quite different if only the results of those interactions were ignored but again, that's just not what the card says.

This is not "stubborn". This is not anyone "fighting to make Dash unable to use his own ship". This is not bad will on anyone's part. This is simply a pretty logical and coherent reading of what's on the card. Far more logical and coherent in fact, than arguing that ignoring obstacles is limited to only ignoring the negative effects and restrictions associated with them when nothing on the card implies such a narrow interpretation.

If you disagree with these arguments, fine. I'd prefer Outrider to work with Dash too. But I simply do think that the above interpretation is far more convincing than the one you're trying to promote. That does not make me your personal enemy or someone who tries break a ship you like. Please refrain from personal attacks or throwing epithets suggesting the other party is stubbornly attempting to break Outrider for some nefarious purposes. This is simply how we read the card and our interpretation of it is neither illogical nor unwarranted.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Lightrock

[Talonbane Cobra 1,022]

But it specifically says "while moving" after performing a manouver is not while moving so outriders effect comes in to play. 

And as people keep pointing out, you cannot ignore something that didn't happen, by ignoring it for rules purposes you are acknowledging that it did in fact happen. So Outriders effect,being outside of the ignoration period, is triggered. The overlap / move DID happen you just ignored it. Now you are no longer ignoring it.