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Dash 2.0 and Outrider need an FAQ -- or do they? [Answer: Yes, yes they do lol]

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38 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

So basically the question boils down to the specifics of what it means for Dash to "ignore" an obstacle:

Interpretation 1) Obstacles effectively do not exist while Dash is moving.

Interpretation 2) Dash overlaps/moves through obstacles like anyone else, the obstacle tells Dash to roll a die/skip action/take stress, Dash just turns up the radio.

I think that, purely going RAW, the first is somewhat more intuitive, but in my mind the second is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the language as written and makes more sense within the context of the cards, so personally I'd go with #2.

Well, whether it's interpretation 1 or interpretation 2 that you prefer either would allow Outrider to work as Outrider doesn't care about what Dash is doing while he moves.  Outrider kicks in AFTER he has executed a maneuver (after Dash's ability has stopped doing anything) and says "hey did that maneuver go over a rock?  Wait, it did!  I guess I do something then..."

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Well, whether it's interpretation 1 or interpretation 2 that you prefer either would allow Outrider to work as Outrider doesn't care about what Dash is doing while he moves.  Outrider kicks in AFTER he has executed a maneuver (after Dash's ability has stopped doing anything) and says "hey did that maneuver go over a rock?  Wait, it did!  I guess I do something then..."

No, I think @wurms has it right. The only way Dash can barrel roll onto obstacles is if "ignored" means "it is effectively not there" and he does not move through or overlap while ignoring obstacles. After that, you can't have it both ways. When Outrider looks back it doesn't find a move through/overlap because there was never one to begin with due to Dash ignoring the obstacle when the maneuver happened.

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1 hour ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Additionally, the text on Collision Detector shows that FFG has already screwed up their distinction of range 0: After you move through or overlap an obstacle, you may spend 1 Icon charge to ignore it's effects until the end of the round. Moving through is considered separate from overlapping. That is likely something that will need clarification, especially since they were trying to move to new language in second edition.

What needs clarified? Whether or not it takes one charge to avoid the moving through effect and the overlap effect or one charge for moving through and one charge for overlapping?  

Moving through and overlapping and range zero are all clearly defined in the Rules Reference and do not conflict. 

Dash clearly works on both his maneuver and any re-positions like boost or barrel roll since all of those are considered "moves" per Rules Reference page 13. The same page also makes a distinction between executing a maneuver with regards to obstacles and moving but not executing a maneuver with regards to obstacles. The Rules Reference clearly allows for the possibility of boosting or barrel-rolling where contact with an obstacle occurs. Page thirteen also clearly defines what happens if you are at Range Zero of an asteroid obstacle. 

Yes, Dash should be worded like "Collision Detector." No, Dash should not be read in such a way that using Outrider on Dash doesn't "work." If Dash said, "While you move, you ignore the effects of obstacles," would this even be a question? 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

No, I think @wurms has it right. The only way Dash can barrel roll onto obstacles is if "ignored" means "it is effectively not there" and he does not move through or overlap while ignoring obstacles. After that, you can't have it both ways. When Outrider looks back it doesn't find a move through/overlap because there was never one to begin with due to Dash ignoring the obstacle when the maneuver happened.

This is completely untrue.

WHILE MOVING Dash ignores the obstacle, in the present tense.  It's not like there's a checklist somewhere that tracks the past events and Dash would normally tick the 'moved over an obstacle' box but now he doesn't.  He moves.  Anything that would happen WHILE HE MOVES is ignored.

AFTER he moves Outrider looks to see what happened in the past.  He finds that Dash moved over a rock.

You have to invent some words or effects to read it any other way.
 

Edited by SOTL

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25 minutes ago, SOTL said:

This is completely untrue.

WHILE MOVING Dash ignores the obstacle, in the present tense.  It's not like there's a checklist somewhere that tracks the past events and Dash would normally tick the 'moved over an obstacle' box but now he doesn't.  He moves.  Anything that would happen WHILE HE MOVES is ignored.

AFTER he moves Outrider looks to see what happened in the past.  He finds that Dash moved over a rock.

You have to invent some words of effects to read it any other way.
 

I strongly disagree. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, but unless Dash is performing a patented Schrodinger's ManeuverTM, you can't argue that he simultaneously overlapped and didn't overlap.

Outrider is checking on whether the ship overlapped or moved through an obstacle, immediately after a maneuver has been executed. 'Overlap' and 'move through' are game conditions that are clearly defined within the rules. Dash neither overlaps nor moves through obstacles because, at the time of the maneuver, he is ignoring the obstacle(s) in question. Hence, when Outrider looks back to see whether an obstacle was overlapped, it reviews the maneuver and finds that at no point was any obstacle overlapped.

Basically the fact that Dash is no longer ignoring an obstacle now doesn't mean that he wasn't ignoring the obstacle then.

 

Image result for when will then be now gif

Edited by nexttwelveexits

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3 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

I strongly disagree. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, but unless Dash is performing a patented Schrodinger's ManeuverTM, you can't argue that he simultaneously overlapped and didn't overlap.

Outrider is checking on whether the ship overlapped or moved through an obstacle, immediately after a maneuver has been executed. 'Overlap' and 'move through' are game conditions that are clearly defined within the rules. Dash neither overlaps nor moves through obstacles because, at the time of the maneuver, he is ignoring the obstacle(s) in question. Hence, when Outrider looks back to see whether an obstacle was overlapped, it reviews the maneuver and finds that at no point was any obstacle overlapped.

Basically the fact that Dash is no longer ignoring an obstacle now doesn't mean that he wasn't ignoring the obstacle then.

 

Image result for when will then be now gif

Ignoring something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

Ignoring something doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Then you have to get back to Wurms pointing out that for Dash to be able to barrel roll onto a rock, "ignoring" an obstacle has to mean treating it like it isn't there. Otherwise he would not be able to place the template and finish the barrel roll per the rules of barrel rolling.

Basically, either Dash overlaps while moving and thus can't barrel roll onto rocks, or Dash doesn't overlap while moving and he can't use that part of the Outrider title until it is FAQ'd. He can't have it both ways.

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3 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Then you have to get back to Wurms pointing out that for Dash to be able to barrel roll onto a rock, "ignoring" an obstacle has to mean treating it like it isn't there. Otherwise he would not be able to place the template and finish the barrel roll per the rules of barrel rolling.

Basically, either Dash overlaps while moving and thus can't barrel roll onto rocks, or Dash doesn't overlap while moving and he can't use that part of the Outrider title until it is FAQ'd. He can't have it both ways.

Did he overlap an obstacle? Yes.  Did he ignore it? Yes.  You're creating a false dichotomy.

 

Edited by hawk32

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4 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Did he overlap an obstacle? Yes.  Did he ignore it? Yes.  You're creating a false dichotomy.

 

 

Quote

 

While attempting to place a ship to complete a barrel roll, the action can fail if any of the following occurs: ...

 

 

If Dash overlaps or moves through obstacles even while ignoring them, then he cannot barrel roll onto obstacles.

If Dash can barrel roll onto obstacles because he is ignoring them, then ignoring obstacles means that you do not overlap or move through them.

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3 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

 

 

If Dash overlaps or moves through obstacles even while ignoring them, then he cannot barrel roll onto obstacles.

If Dash can barrel roll onto obstacles because he is ignoring them, then ignoring obstacles means that you do not overlap or move through them.

" move through an obstacle." He ignores while moving.

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Just now, hawk32 said:

" move through an obstacle." He ignores while moving.

That's precisely my point.

Does Dash overlap or move through obstacles he is ignoring?

1) YES. He cannot barrel roll onto obstacles.

2) NO. He cannot make use of the second half of the Outrider title.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

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Just now, nexttwelveexits said:

That's precisely my point.

Does Dash overlap or move through obstacles he is ignoring?

1) YES. He cannot barrel roll onto obstacles.

2) NO. He cannot make use of the second half of the Outrider title.

You simply cannot have it both ways.

You're standing in my way.  I bump into you.  I ignore it and keep moving.  Did the bump occur?

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1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

You're standing in my way.  I bump into you.  I ignore it and keep moving.  Did the bump occur?

How about instead of hypotheticals, you just answer this simple question: does Dash move through or overlap obstacles he is ignoring?

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

Past =/= present.

Are you eating breakfast?  Did you eat breakfast?  Well which is it, you can't have it both ways!

I am not eating breakfast. When lunchtime comes, and you check whether I ate breakfast, the answer will be that I did not eat breakfast.

Look, the title SHOULD work with Dash. It's his freaking ship. It's his title. But it just doesn't right now. Just wait for the FAQ.

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3 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

How about instead of hypotheticals, you just answer this simple question: does Dash move through or overlap obstacles he is ignoring?

I am not eating breakfast. When lunchtime comes, and you check whether I ate breakfast, the answer will be that I did not eat breakfast.

Look, the title SHOULD work with Dash. It's his freaking ship. It's his title. But it just doesn't right now. Just wait for the FAQ.

Tell me about all those times you've ignored things that didn't happen.  He moved through an obstacle.  He ignored it.

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2 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Tell me about all those times you've ignored things that didn't happen.  He moved through an obstacle.  He ignored it.

Your answer suggests that he DOES move through or overlap obstacles he is ignoring.

Thus, by your ruling, Dash cannot barrel roll onto an obstacle, because moving through or overlapping the obstacle would cause the barrel roll to fail.

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1 minute ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Your answer suggests that he DOES move through or overlap obstacles he is ignoring.

Thus, by your ruling, Dash cannot barrel roll onto an obstacle, because moving through or overlapping the obstacle would cause the barrel roll to fail.

"Barrel rolling allows a pilot to move their ship" he's moving... he ignores it.

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1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

"Barrel rolling allows a pilot to move their ship" he's moving... he ignores it.

Then he's not overlapping or moving through the obstacle...

I mean, we're just going around in circles at this point. We are clearly not going to convince each other so it's probably time to just sit back and let other people talk about it for awhile, yeah?

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

What needs clarified? Whether or not it takes one charge to avoid the moving through effect and the overlap effect or one charge for moving through and one charge for overlapping?  

Moving through and overlapping and range zero are all clearly defined in the Rules Reference and do not conflict. 

Dash clearly works on both his maneuver and any re-positions like boost or barrel roll since all of those are considered "moves" per Rules Reference page 13. The same page also makes a distinction between executing a maneuver with regards to obstacles and moving but not executing a maneuver with regards to obstacles. The Rules Reference clearly allows for the possibility of boosting or barrel-rolling where contact with an obstacle occurs. Page thirteen also clearly defines what happens if you are at Range Zero of an asteroid obstacle. 

Yes, Dash should be worded like "Collision Detector." No, Dash should not be read in such a way that using Outrider on Dash doesn't "work." If Dash said, "While you move, you ignore the effects of obstacles," would this even be a question? 

 

 

 

 

Oi, I'm on Dash works fine and everyone else is trying to create problems.

The clarification is FFG using consistent language with overlap and Range 0 not being mutually exclusive, which the poster I was responding to was arguing (or I thought they were, I can't be arsed to read back now that this thread has expanded).

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1 minute ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Then he's not overlapping or moving through the obstacle...

I mean, we're just going around in circles at this point. We are clearly not going to convince each other so it's probably time to just sit back and let other people talk about it for awhile, yeah?

You can't ignore something that didn't happen.  Words have meaning.  If you're going to try and play some ridiculous semantics game you should open up a dictionary.

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