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HanScottFirst

Dash 2.0 and Outrider need an FAQ -- or do they? [Answer: Yes, yes they do lol]

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So, I have heard (on this forum) that Alex Davy at EU Nationals said that Dash and Outrider do work together. Apparently Dash's abilitiy ignores the effects of obstacles, but he still can overlap or move through obstacles.  I think that makes sense, it his ship afterall.

But I think you can make an argument in the current RAW as well that Dash and Outrider work:

Page 13: 

"A ship moves through an object if the template is placed on that object when the ship moves."

There is no reference to if you suffer effects or not. Simply, if your template is laid down on an object, you have moved through it. Dash, again, ignores the effects, but his template was still placed over the object/obstacle when he moved. Regardless of whether or not he ignores it, his template still went over it. And the template going over an object is what determines moving through. 

Page 14:

"While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship's final position would physically be on top of an object."

So again, overlapping is determined by your ship's physical position, and has nothing to do if you suffer effects of the obstacle or not. So Dash ignores the obstacle, sure, but his final position still was physically on top of the object. 

Edited by HanScottFirst

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Dash ignores the obstacle.... 

Dash says "while you move, you ignore obstacles".

It does not say "while you move, you ignore the effects of obstacles"

Not sure where you are getting the "effects of obstacles" you keep stating from.

 

Edited by Icelom

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8 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Dash ignore the obstacle.... 

Dash says "while you move, you ignore obstacles".

It does not say "while you move, you ignore the effects of obstacles"

Not sure where you are getting the "effects of obstacles" you keep stating from.

 

Ignoring means it is not THERE AT ALL for Dash. But if you want to argument like that, what is your opinion on Dash and the Crit Stunned Pilot. Sure Dash would gain Damage from that if I follow your advice?

 

Needs a FAQ. Absolutly!

Edited by beardxofxdeath

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The argument here is between Dash's ability and the second part of Outrider, right?

By RAW, I'd say that doesn't work. The obstacle is ignored in all ways. It doesn't feel like it's the intent, especially with Davy's comment, but RAI can be a lot harder to justify than RAW, especially in a gaming forum.

I think they should FAQ it if they are supposed to work together, yeah.

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1 minute ago, Ixidor said:

The argument here is between Dash's ability and the second part of Outrider, right?

By RAW, I'd say that doesn't work. The obstacle is ignored in all ways. It doesn't feel like it's the intent, especially with Davy's comment, but RAI can be a lot harder to justify than RAW, especially in a gaming forum.

I think they should FAQ it if they are supposed to work together, yeah.

I feel the same. But it is hard to say what the devolopers intention is. The title works perfectly fine for the other pilots. They can run over Debris and still do their action. I think it is still great.

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Fair, fair. I was trying to see if there was some way to make it work with the current rules, but I guess not XD

I was basing my comments off of this discussion about Dash: 

I made the same argument about him never triggering Outrider, but I also thought he could not perform actions over rocks, but apperently that is all part of "moving."

 

Edited by HanScottFirst

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And good point about stunned pilot! I guess Dash would still take a damage based upon my logic? Sure, he ignores the effects, but he still overlapped/moved through.

(Speaking of stunned pilot in general, you take a damage, but still roll to see if you take more damage right?)

17 minutes ago, beardxofxdeath said:

Ignoring means it is not THERE AT ALL for Dash. But if you want to argument like that, what is your opinion on Dash and the Crit Stunned Pilot. Sure Dash would gain Damage from that if I follow your advice?

 

 

Edited by HanScottFirst

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I wouldn't mind an FAQ ruling, but as a TO, absent one I wold rule Dash can use Outrider for now. This came up in the rules forum a while back and this was my take:

I think the specific wording means Dash can use Outrider but would also be vulnerable to Stunned Pilot.  Dash says "while you move" and I just checked and the RR for obstacles specifies that their base effect also goes off "while you move".

So DURING the move he disregards the negative effects.  However that doesn't change the fact that he did in fact move through/overlap that obstacle. As such any effect that triggers AFTER you move still applies.

Now, one could argue that if we are ignoring the obstacle then the game in effect acts as if it isn't there so we shouldn't be able to reference it after the fact either. Strictly speaking there's no problem with that from a logic standpoint.  However, I'm going to make a thematic argument  (admittedly the least relevant kind possible) for saying that's not how it works. The character Dash Render is from Shadows of the Empire. He flies a YT-2400 model freighter named Outrider. Outrider IS Dash's ship. For Dash to not be able to use the ability of his own ship is completely nonsensical. It would be like Han not being able to use the Millennium Falcon title.  Theme does not hold any rules weight. However, since there is a valid rules based argument to be made both ways I think erring on the side of "a character can use his own ship" is the obvious way to go and should any other similar questions involving timing and "ignore" arise we use Dash as precedent.

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1 hour ago, HanScottFirst said:

So, I have heard (on this forum) that Alex Davy at EU Nationals said that Dash and Outrider do work together. Apparently Dash's abilitiy ignores the effects of obstacles, but he still can overlap or move through obstacles.  I think that makes sense, it his ship afterall.

But I think you can make an argument in the current RAW as well that Dash and Outrider work:

Page 13: 

"A ship moves through an object if the template is placed on that object when the ship moves."

There is no reference to if you suffer effects or not. Simply, if your template is laid down on an object, you have moved through it. Dash, again, ignores the effects, but his template was still placed over the object/obstacle when he moved. Regardless of whether or not he ignores it, his template still went over it. And the template going over an object is what determines moving through. 

Page 14:

"While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship's final position would physically be on top of an object."

So again, overlapping is determined by your ship's physical position, and has nothing to do if you suffer effects of the obstacle or not. So Dash ignores the obstacle, sure, but his final position still was physically on top of the object. 

Why would they not work together? As you point out ignoring the obstacle doesn't mean you didn't move through it or overlap it at the end. The check isn't if you suffered a damage or gained a stress or lost your action. The check is if you moved through or overlapped an obstacle during a fully executed maneuver not what happened to you for doing so. 

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... Yeah, I think folks here are just looking for trouble.

Dash might ignore them, but it doesn't mean he still didn't move through/overlap. Ignore needs some clarification in the rules for a number of reasons, but this doesn't seem to be one.
 

Also, for this particular one, the intent is extremely clear, and it's a stretch to read it otherwise.

While moving, he ignores them. If he moved through or overlapped them, Outrider triggers. Ignoring them doesn't stop them from existing on the mat.

Edited by ArbitraryNerd

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3 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

... Yeah, I think folks here are just looking for trouble.

Dash might ignore them, but it doesn't mean he still didn't move through/overlap. Ignore needs some clarification in the rules for a number of reasons, but this doesn't seem to be one.
 

Also, for this particular one, the intent is extremely clear, and it's a stretch to read it otherwise.

While moving, he ignores them. If he moved through or overlapped them, Outrider triggers. Ignoring them doesn't stop them from existing on the mat.

No folks are literally just reading the rules... it's not a stretch its reading what it says... And maybe the intent was that dash + outrider combo was to strong so he gets a little less of the benefits. You are assuming intent and then trying to read the rules in a way that fits that intent. We have no idea what the intent was. (Outside 3rd party sources saying they heard Alex Davy say it and that's not really enough to stand on)

Clearly this is ambiguous enough it needs an faq.

To me ignoring them means he did not move through them they were ignored. That's why he did not get any negative effects.

At any rate this clearly needs an faq as there are 2 very distinct ways to read the ability.

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24 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Explain how "ignore" in this context means "The obstacle isn't there."

Collision detector is worded so that it ignores on the effects of an obstacle, but dash ignores the whole obstacle. Assuming that's not just sloppy phrasing (a big assume) the difference in wording suggests that ignoring an obstacle means that not only do the effects not apply, but it's as if the obstacle wasn't there.

Also, how does "ignore" in this context mean "the obstacle is there for outrider but not for dash"

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Just now, Icelom said:

No folks are literally just reading the rules... it's not a stretch its reading what it says... And maybe the intent was that dash + outrider combo was to strong so he gets a little less of the benefits. You are assuming intent and then trying to read the rules in a way that fits that intent. We have no idea what the intent was. (Outside 3rd party sources saying they heard Alex Davy say it and that's not really enough to stand on)

Clearly this is ambiguous enough it needs an faq.

To me ignoring them means he did not move through them they were ignored. That's why he did not get any negative effects.

At any rate this clearly needs an faq as there are 2 very distinct ways to read the ability.

Most instances of "clearly needs an FAQ" are actually just errors in reading comprehension and certain parties wanting to be correct, so you'll forgive me if I ignore your absolute here.

Now, RE your bolded point above, what causes you to read "ignore them" as not moving through them? He clearly moves through them physically. And, per game rules, he clearly overlaps, physically. You ignore them (which avoids the negative effects), but you physically moved through them.

Do what the card says, not what it doesn't say. Nowhere does it say that you are considered to have not moved through them/overlapped. You just ignore them [when you do]. Outrider isn't saying you had to have suffered any effects from obstacles, just completed a maneuver over/on them. 

More to the point, linguistically, you can't ignore something that isn't there. That's not really how FFG operates, however, as their relationship with language is honestly a bit awkward at best.

And the intent has been covered above by others (Outrider as Dash's ship, etc...), but it isn't influencing my reading of the rules, I'm just reading the rules as written and not looking for more than what the cards say. When moving, ignore obstacles. If you completed a maneuver through/on an obstacle, trigger Outrider. Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas events.

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1 minute ago, jagsba said:

Collision detector is worded so that it ignores on the effects of an obstacle, but dash ignores the whole obstacle. Assuming that's not just sloppy phrasing (a big assume) the difference in wording suggests that ignoring an obstacle means that not only do the effects not apply, but it's as if the obstacle wasn't there.

Also, how does "ignore" in this context mean "the obstacle is there for outrider but not for dash"

I'm very inclined to assume sloppy phrasing on Dash. 

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3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I'm very inclined to assume sloppy phrasing on Dash. 

I really do agree. But I think there's enough slop between this interaction and the Han/Qi'ra one that they need to put a FAQ out to let everyone know what's what. Otherwise we get threads like this debating what "ignore" means.

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19 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

Most instances of "clearly needs an FAQ" are actually just errors in reading comprehension and certain parties wanting to be correct, so you'll forgive me if I ignore your absolute here.

Agreed that is what you are doing.

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RAW Dash cannot use Outrider.

From Rules Reference page 13:

Quote

 

MOVE

A ship moves when it executes a maneuver or otherwise changes position using a

template (such as barrel rolling or boosting).

A ship moves through an object if the template is placed on that object when

the ship moves.

If a ship moves through an obstacle, it suffers the effects of that obstacle.

 

Outrider

latest?cb=20180731230505

 

If Dash moved through an obstacle and does indeed trigger Outrider then he would suffer the effects of that obstacle because the rules state "if a ship moves through an obstacle, it suffers the effects of that obstacle."

If Dash ignores obstacles. He does not move through the obstacle, and therefore does not suffer effects of said obstacle.

 

Also on Page 13 under Obstacles:

Quote

 

OBSTACLES

Obstacles act as hazards that can disrupt and damage ships. A ship can

suffer effects by moving through, overlapping, or while being at range 0 of

obstacles.

While a ship executes a maneuver, if it moves through or overlaps an

obstacle, it executes its maneuver as normal but suffers an effect based on

the type of obstacle:

 

Dash CANNOT move through an obstacle, trigger Outrider, AND ignore the obstacle. Dash either ignores it fully while moving, or else suffers the effects of MOVING THROUGH IT.

It's the "moving through" that causes the effects to trigger on obstacles. It you are triggering Outrider, you are moving through obstacles.

 

As for overlapping, the rules state overlapping is "while executing a maneuver" and not just being on an obstacle. The rules use Range 0 as being on an obstacle. Outrider specifically says overlapping implying while executing a maneuver. So Dash does not overlap obstacles either, because when he finishes his maneuver on an obstacle, he is not overlapping that obstacle, he is simply at range 0 of that obstacle.

Again, page 13:

Quote

 

While executing a maneuver, if a ship would be placed at the end of the

template on top of another object, it has overlapped that object.

 

Quote

 

While a ship is at range 0 of an obstacle it may suffer different effects.

• Asteroid: The ship cannot perform attacks.

 

Quote

 

Before a ship moves, if it is at range 0 of an obstacle, it does not suffer

the effects of that obstacle unless it moves through or overlaps that

obstacle again.

 

 

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On 9/21/2018 at 4:52 PM, Icelom said:

Agreed that is what you are doing.

Useful and constructive. Your contribution to this community is both valuable and appreciated.
 

 

On 9/21/2018 at 6:46 PM, wurms said:

 

If Dash ignores obstacles. He does not move through the obstacle, and therefore does not suffer effects of said obstacle.

 

Nothing says that if he ignores an obstacle, he doesn't move through it. You're adding definitions/rules that do not exist. Ignore needs clarification, as a game term, 100%. 

Additionally, the text on Collision Detector shows that FFG has already screwed up their distinction of range 0: After you move through or overlap an obstacle, you may spend 1 Icon charge to ignore it's effects until the end of the round. Moving through is considered separate from overlapping. That is likely something that will need clarification, especially since they were trying to move to new language in second edition.

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To how I read it Dash & Outrider's ability have both been carefully worded to make it clear that they DO work together.  Dash's ability is so limited as to when it's actually 'on' that it's certain to avoid clashing with Outrider.

 

Dash's ability isn't on while he activates, it's not on while he executes a maneuver, it's on only while he actually physically moves within the maneuver.  And Outrider's ability isn't on while he activates on, it's not on while he moves, it's on AFTER he execute a maneuver.  
 

Edited by SOTL

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Aren't you guys forgetting the Golden Rule?. If there's a conflict between the rules and the Rules Reference Guide the RRG takes precedence. Card abilities take precedence over the RRG. 

I might not have enough caffeine in my system yet but it seems to me there is no problem with Dash and the Outrider title working together.

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So basically the question boils down to the specifics of what it means for Dash to "ignore" an obstacle:

Interpretation 1) Obstacles effectively do not exist while Dash is moving.

Interpretation 2) Dash overlaps/moves through obstacles like anyone else, the obstacle tells Dash to roll a die/skip action/take stress, Dash just turns up the radio.

I think that, purely going RAW, the first is somewhat more intuitive, but in my mind the second is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the language as written and makes more sense within the context of the cards, so personally I'd go with #2.

Wurms got it fam

Edited by nexttwelveexits

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41 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

So basically the question boils down to the specifics of what it means for Dash to "ignore" an obstacle:

Interpretation 1) Obstacles effectively do not exist while Dash is moving.

Interpretation 2) Dash overlaps/moves through obstacles like anyone else, the obstacle tells Dash to roll a die/skip action/take stress, Dash just turns up the radio.

I think that, purely going RAW, the first is somewhat more intuitive, but in my mind the second is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the language as written and makes more sense within the context of the cards, so personally I'd go with #2.

Its definitely not #2 or they would have worded it like Collision detector to ignore the effects.

"After you move through or overlap an obstacle, you may spend 1 Icon charge to ignore it's effects until the end of the round."

And if it is #2 then Dash's barrel roll template would not be able to touch the obstacle when he barrel rolls, but it can because when Dash moves he ignores the obstacle like it isn't there.

Ignoring just the effects like many people are stating prevents Dash's barrel roll template from touching an obstacle, but we all know he can go willy nilly all over those **** obstacles.

Edited by wurms

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