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theBitterFig

Palp Defenders. Still.

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Defenders dropped in points. Now what to do with this list?

Two Deltas and OGP with Palp are at 192. Lots of options for 8 points...

-FCS is solid with a coordinating shuttle and a good Defender dial

-Tractor Beam can do some work

-HLC to force your opponent out of your bullseye

-ST-321 gives the list a better action economy 

-Upgrade OGP to Jendon/Sai/Kagi 

-Col. Detector on the shuttle

Thats my idea:

Delta Squadron Pilot (69)
Fire-Control System (2)

Delta Squadron Pilot (69)
Fire-Control System (2)

Omicron Group Pilot (43)
Emperor Palpatine (11)
ST-321 (4)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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The ability to coord pre or post move is pretty great. I'd definitely keep the OGP.

Personally be very tempted by a pair of HLC. Maybe never fire it at I1, but still, MOAR DICE.

FCS x2 and ST-321 feels like a solid choice.

Or you know, Ciena Ree and Baffle for the lols. Edit. Oh double Palp, doh.

Edited by Cuz05

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FCS/FCS/ST-321 is my pick as well.  I could see giving up Palpatine for Advanced Sensors, or maybe going for Passive Sensors over Fire Control System.  Coordinate Focus, then move and Passive Sensors, getting the lock when something comes into range.  But that'd mean not taking ST-321.  In which case, bringing Tractor Beam on the Shuttle might be worth it.

I'm NEVER giving up Omicron Group Pilot.  All being the same Init is far to valuable, IMHO.

Unless... Kagi/Crack Shot Onyx/Crack Shot Onyx?  Probably not worth it to give up Palp for an all Init 4 list.  Maybe against a heavy Lock meta.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Hadn't flown defenders since a particularly bad day, in like January or February, of starting with two losses, then conceding to fly a different list casually.

But an Extended tournament rolled around, I couldn't think of much that was interesting in Extended specifically I wanted to fly (Jendon Inqs, sure, but that's pretty meta).  So I dug this out again.  Looking around on Meta-Wing, I saw the Heavy Laser Cannon kit, and that interested me.  Some Fly Casual practice, to get a feel for them again, and away we go.

3-0, all matches a lot tougher than final scores might have looked.  Everyone played well, but token stacks and above average dice luck can go a long way.

Still, I like the Heavy Laser Cannon variant, and if I fly these again, it'll be HLC.  Defenders have two issues pretty big issues.  First is predictability.  Last game, 1-on-1 vs a U-Wing, my opponent couldn't push damage, but kept calling my moves exactly (he could have won on the last round, 4-straight past a Gas Cloud to stay above half points, but flipped to get one last head-to-head shot, since you win when you destroy all your opponents ships.  What are these you speak of?).  Second issue is low damage for their cost.  HLC tossing an extra die here and there can really add up.

Edited by theBitterFig

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Hadn't flown defenders since a particularly bad day, in like January or February, of starting with two losses, then conceding to fly a different list casually.

But an Extended tournament rolled around, I couldn't think of much that was interesting in Extended specifically I wanted to fly (Jendon Inqs, sure, but that's pretty meta).  So I dug this out again.  Looking around on Meta-Wing, I saw the Heavy Laser Cannon kit, and that interested me.  Some Fly Casual practice, to get a feel for them again, and away we go.

3-0, all matches a lot tougher than final scores might have looked.  Everyone played well, but token stacks and above average dice luck can go a long way.

Still, I like the Heavy Laser Cannon variant, and if I fly these again, it'll be HLC.  Defenders have two issues pretty big issues.  First is predictability.  Last game, 1-on-1 vs a U-Wing, my opponent couldn't push damage, but kept calling my moves exactly (he could have won on the last round, 4-straight past a Gas Cloud to stay above half points, but flipped to get one last head-to-head shot, since you win when you destroy all your opponents ships.  What are these you speak of?).  Second issue is low damage for their cost.  HLC tossing an extra die here and there can really add up.

With nantex possibly pushing larger ships into the meta, HLC is a good choice. Already seeing lots of Decimators, and rebel players here are going back to falcons already with Lando and Han

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Has anyone tried Passive Sensors in this squad? I'm thinking of something like:

TIE/D Defender - Delta Squadron Pilot - 72 Delta Squadron Pilot - (69) Passive Sensors (3) Jamming Beam (0) TIE/D Defender - Delta Squadron Pilot - 72 Delta Squadron Pilot - (69) Passive Sensors (3) Jamming Beam (0) Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle - Omicron Group Pilot - 54 Omicron Group Pilot - (43) Jamming Beam (0) •Emperor Palpatine (11) Total: 198/200 View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

The Defenders will often prefer to use their action to Focus to maximise defence, but Palp and the free Evade might be safe enough in some cases. There's also the ability for the Lambda to coordinate a Focus action to a Defender before it's activation, freeing it to Passive to get a lock without any guesswork of which target to pick. PS doesn't have the same synergy here it does on ordnance carriers but it might still be good. Has anyone put it on the table already?

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I honestly don't know why they keep buffing the Delta Defender.  They've always seemed fine to me.

With this latest points update, we now have 12 points to play with, given the shell of Delta / Delta / OGP (Palp).

Some options (I'm listing them here more to focus my own thoughts than anything else) which have opened up, in the transition from 8 free points:

  • Advanced Sensors on the Shuttle.  I could see this being quite good.  Downside is that it makes the shuttle a lot more expensive.  Upside?  Those things suck at moving, and Advanced Sensors means you won't miss your necessary coordinates and reinforces.
  • Collision Detector now has 6 points leftover, instead of 2.  A shuttle not losing actions due to flying over obstacles is pretty nice.
    • A pair of FCS on the Deltas.  There's still 2 points to spare, but FCS isn't terrible.  It's going to be potent in the late game.
    • ColDet + ST-321 on the shuttle seems nice.  ST-321 really doesn't want to miss opportunities to coordinate, and ColDet helps with that.
    • You could equip a pair of Autoblasters on the Deltas.  I'm not really feeling it.  There's no way to force crits, and Defenders will usually have a Focus (or at least a Palp Force) so using ABS as a way to try to sneak crits through on low red dice mods doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
    • Passive Sensors on both Deltas.  There's not a tonne to be gained, but you'll have the option to be coordinated a Focus, then move and PS.  Might be a bit easier to get Locks on the opening.
    • Another option: Put a ColDet on each of the Defenders.  With a fairly predictable dial, being able to ignore obstacles opens up options.  I guess they'll already Full Throttle when they fly over a Gas Cloud or Asteroid, but having their action is nice, and avoiding stress from Debris is really useful, and getting a shot while on a rock is potent.  There's also potential to use your movement actions to cross over obstacles.
  • Cannon Options:
    • Autoblasters covered above.
    • Heavy Laser Cannon: there's only 2 not 4 more points to play with, given the cannon price increase.  I can't think of anything great to do with them (one FCS irks me...), so I'd take bid.  I think baby bids can matter.  While it'll probably only come into play against Init 1, the choice to move first is probably pretty handy.  Maybe if you were fighting large/medium base Init 1s, it'd be handy to move second with those 4-dice bullseye attacks.
      • Mostly, I think HLC is still a good option.  Is it the still the best option for the list?  I think testing out ColDet or Advanced Sensor options makes a lot of sense, but it might still be HLC.
    • Tractor Beams: I don't really see it.  The control it gives almost surely isn't worth giving up the damage potential, particularly given the tractor rules changes.
    • Ion Cannon: Hey, it's the version which is legal in Quickbuilds!  While I'm a lot more positive on Ion control than a lot of other folks, I don't really see it here.  Low attack count, plus a ship which probably doesn't need to restrict an opponent's move as much mean that it just doesn't make a tonne of sense to me.
  • Missile Options:  Now that the only option isn't Ion Missile, there might be something worth thinking about here.
    • Homing?  No, these lack critical mass.
    • Concussion?  I don't really see the point on a 3-red ship.  Denying the range 3 bonus doesn't seem to be worth it, compared to like HLC.
    • Mag Pulse Warheads?  Maybe, but probably not.  Jam almost surely doesn't matter by Init 1, there's no special reason why Crits would be preferred.  Maybe Deplete helps, since depleted ships WILL NOT be pushing damage on Full Throttle Defenders.
    • Cluster Missiles?  This might actually be good.  Palp + Coordinated Focus gives a decent chance for multiple offensive mods.  Having Clusters to try to thin out swarms might make sense.  Downside is that it seems really easy to waste the points.  The only benefit Cluster ever gives is when you can do the bonus attack.
  • Other Crew Options?
    • Most options for two different crew will fit now.  Can't to Vader + Grand Inquisitor, but that's about it.
    • Vader is always tempting.  Clearing an opponent's token is nice.
    • Sloane was also always tempting.  Punishing an opponent for taking stress is pretty nice when you can easily white K-Turn, and giving 2 stress to someone who takes out the shuttle might be pretty useful.
      • Sloane/Vader?  Sloane + ST-321, & HLCs?  Sloan + Advanced Sensors, & FCS?
        • I think Sloane is the other option I'm thinking about testing.  I probably won't get around to it (too many lists, not enough time), but still.
    • Grand Inquisitor gives double-actions to the Shuttle (Coordinate+Reinforce?), but I don't know that it's worth the stress.  I mean, Palp is already kinda double-actions, and probably better in this list.
  • Ship Change?  I've almost always been a fan of sticking with Deltas and OGP.  I think chopping/changing order on Init 1 leads to something greater than the sum of it's parts.  However, it's worth considering options.
    • Scarif Base Pilot got a lot cheaper.  There's 16 points to play with in a SBP(Palp)/Delta/Delta list.  I can't think of anything great to do with those points.
    • Jendon got worse, but I don't know off the top of my head whether his nerf is a net gain or loss given the Delta buff.  You could FCS on the Deltas, Passive Sensors a Palp Jendon, and I guess it'd be OK, but I think I'd rather stick with ColDet OGP.
    • I suppose it as possible before, but there's also the option to replace one of the Deltas with an Onyx.  This leaves 5 points for Talents and other options.
      • Lone Wolf is what immediately leaps to my mind.  Can you imagine if a Lone Wolf Onyx made it to a 1-on-1 situation at the end of a game?  It does become a bigger target in the early game, but with Focus, Evade, Force, Reroll, it's going to be a tough nut to crack if it decides it wants to try to flee some.  Does a Lone Wolf Onyx present enough of a threat that the shuttle gets ignored, gets to start doing offensive work?
        • Downside is that it'd really impact how you can fly the list.  Having to keep someone separate might be too limiting.
        • Also, Onyx is probably a lot easier for most lists to block than a Delta.  While an opponent can "pre block" the 4K of a Delta the turn before, you can maybe coordinate a Boost/Roll, or just plot a different maneuver.  Onyx could easily be blocked in a way it cannot react to.

 

Edited by theBitterFig

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that thread inspired me! But I prefer having an ace somewhere in the list, because they're just so much fun flying!
With two naked delta, you now have 66 points left over. What to do...

Well, Soontir / Daredevil / Targeting computer is 58 points and leave 8 points of bid. He's squishy, so you have to play safe with him, but he can be a great closer against damaged ship, and just circling the map and taking potshot while the Deltas do their thing can be kinda good, maybe?

or Grand Inquisitor, with FCS and some missile ( I would go with mag pulse) can be great. Really tanky with evade and force in the early game, fit the theme of 3 agility, focus evade ships that are hard to kill. The offense leave a bit to be desired, but that's the case will all list with only 3 ships nowadays I think :P .

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Palp Scarif Reaper.
2x Crack Shot Onyx Defenders.

200 points.

That Palp Mobile costs only 50 points and can cause some serious blocking mayhem and/or move Really Quickly. Crack Shot on Defenders seems fine.
Not convinced that the Reaper is a great PalpMobile, but it is with two I4 Defenders in tow...
It seems at least worth considering.

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23 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I honestly don't know why they keep buffing the Delta Defender.  They've always seemed fine to me.

With this latest points update, we now have 12 points to play with, given the shell of Delta / Delta / OGP (Palp).

Some options (I'm listing them here more to focus my own thoughts than anything else) which have opened up, in the transition from 8 free points:

  • Advanced Sensors on the Shuttle.  I could see this being quite good.  Downside is that it makes the shuttle a lot more expensive.  Upside?  Those things suck at moving, and Advanced Sensors means you won't miss your necessary coordinates and reinforces.
  • Collision Detector now has 6 points leftover, instead of 2.  A shuttle not losing actions due to flying over obstacles is pretty nice.
    • A pair of FCS on the Deltas.  There's still 2 points to spare, but FCS isn't terrible.  It's going to be potent in the late game.
    • ColDet + ST-321 on the shuttle seems nice.  ST-321 really doesn't want to miss opportunities to coordinate, and ColDet helps with that.
    • You could equip a pair of Autoblasters on the Deltas.  I'm not really feeling it.  There's no way to force crits, and Defenders will usually have a Focus (or at least a Palp Force) so using ABS as a way to try to sneak crits through on low red dice mods doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
    • Passive Sensors on both Deltas.  There's not a tonne to be gained, but you'll have the option to be coordinated a Focus, then move and PS.  Might be a bit easier to get Locks on the opening.
    • Another option: Put a ColDet on each of the Defenders.  With a fairly predictable dial, being able to ignore obstacles opens up options.  I guess they'll already Full Throttle when they fly over a Gas Cloud or Asteroid, but having their action is nice, and avoiding stress from Debris is really useful, and getting a shot while on a rock is potent.  There's also potential to use your movement actions to cross over obstacles.
  • Cannon Options:
    • Autoblasters covered above.
    • Heavy Laser Cannon: there's only 2 not 4 more points to play with, given the cannon price increase.  I can't think of anything great to do with them (one FCS irks me...), so I'd take bid.  I think baby bids can matter.  While it'll probably only come into play against Init 1, the choice to move first is probably pretty handy.  Maybe if you were fighting large/medium base Init 1s, it'd be handy to move second with those 4-dice bullseye attacks.
      • Mostly, I think HLC is still a good option.  Is it the still the best option for the list?  I think testing out ColDet or Advanced Sensor options makes a lot of sense, but it might still be HLC.
    • Tractor Beams: I don't really see it.  The control it gives almost surely isn't worth giving up the damage potential, particularly given the tractor rules changes.
    • Ion Cannon: Hey, it's the version which is legal in Quickbuilds!  While I'm a lot more positive on Ion control than a lot of other folks, I don't really see it here.  Low attack count, plus a ship which probably doesn't need to restrict an opponent's move as much mean that it just doesn't make a tonne of sense to me.
  • Missile Options:  Now that the only option isn't Ion Missile, there might be something worth thinking about here.
    • Homing?  No, these lack critical mass.
    • Concussion?  I don't really see the point on a 3-red ship.  Denying the range 3 bonus doesn't seem to be worth it, compared to like HLC.
    • Mag Pulse Warheads?  Maybe, but probably not.  Jam almost surely doesn't matter by Init 1, there's no special reason why Crits would be preferred.  Maybe Deplete helps, since depleted ships WILL NOT be pushing damage on Full Throttle Defenders.
    • Cluster Missiles?  This might actually be good.  Palp + Coordinated Focus gives a decent chance for multiple offensive mods.  Having Clusters to try to thin out swarms might make sense.  Downside is that it seems really easy to waste the points.  The only benefit Cluster ever gives is when you can do the bonus attack.
  • Other Crew Options?
    • Most options for two different crew will fit now.  Can't to Vader + Grand Inquisitor, but that's about it.
    • Vader is always tempting.  Clearing an opponent's token is nice.
    • Sloane was also always tempting.  Punishing an opponent for taking stress is pretty nice when you can easily white K-Turn, and giving 2 stress to someone who takes out the shuttle might be pretty useful.
      • Sloane/Vader?  Sloane + ST-321, & HLCs?  Sloan + Advanced Sensors, & FCS?
        • I think Sloane is the other option I'm thinking about testing.  I probably won't get around to it (too many lists, not enough time), but still.
    • Grand Inquisitor gives double-actions to the Shuttle (Coordinate+Reinforce?), but I don't know that it's worth the stress.  I mean, Palp is already kinda double-actions, and probably better in this list.
  • Ship Change?  I've almost always been a fan of sticking with Deltas and OGP.  I think chopping/changing order on Init 1 leads to something greater than the sum of it's parts.  However, it's worth considering options.
    • Scarif Base Pilot got a lot cheaper.  There's 16 points to play with in a SBP(Palp)/Delta/Delta list.  I can't think of anything great to do with those points.
    • Jendon got worse, but I don't know off the top of my head whether his nerf is a net gain or loss given the Delta buff.  You could FCS on the Deltas, Passive Sensors a Palp Jendon, and I guess it'd be OK, but I think I'd rather stick with ColDet OGP.
    • I suppose it as possible before, but there's also the option to replace one of the Deltas with an Onyx.  This leaves 5 points for Talents and other options.
      • Lone Wolf is what immediately leaps to my mind.  Can you imagine if a Lone Wolf Onyx made it to a 1-on-1 situation at the end of a game?  It does become a bigger target in the early game, but with Focus, Evade, Force, Reroll, it's going to be a tough nut to crack if it decides it wants to try to flee some.  Does a Lone Wolf Onyx present enough of a threat that the shuttle gets ignored, gets to start doing offensive work?
        • Downside is that it'd really impact how you can fly the list.  Having to keep someone separate might be too limiting.
        • Also, Onyx is probably a lot easier for most lists to block than a Delta.  While an opponent can "pre block" the 4K of a Delta the turn before, you can maybe coordinate a Boost/Roll, or just plot a different maneuver.  Onyx could easily be blocked in a way it cannot react to.

 

Honestly I'd keep the shuttle as cheap as possible, and stick with OGP + Palp only. The win condition for this list is "kill more than the shuttle is worth."

With the remaining points, I'd almost certainly throw Collision Detector on both Defenders. Their reliance on high-speed moves and the 4k makes them extremely predictable, and every obstacle further reduces their available choices further. Collision detector allows for unexpected plays for offensive and defensive purposes.

Edited by player3503606

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23 minutes ago, player3503606 said:

Honestly I'd keep the shuttle as cheap as possible, and stick with OGP + Palp only. The win condition for this list is "kill more than the shuttle is worth."

With the remaining points, I'd almost certainly throw Collision Detector on both Defenders. Their reliance on high-speed moves and the 4k makes them extremely predictable, and every obstacle further reduces their available choices further. Collision detector allows for unexpected plays for offensive and defensive purposes.

I agree.

Upgrading the shuttle is for fun purposes only. 

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On 1/15/2020 at 10:37 AM, theBitterFig said:

Sloane was also always tempting.  Punishing an opponent for taking stress is pretty nice when you can easily white K-Turn, and giving 2 stress to someone who takes out the shuttle might be pretty useful.

Sad to tell you fig, Sloane quite clearly states. “When another Friendly ship...”

having done extensive work with Sloane the double Defender isn’t going to be preferred. You’d likely get better mileage out of a Scarif Base Pilot with a tactical Officer and ISB Slicers than a Sloane OGP.

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Delta Squadron Pilot (67)

Delta Squadron Pilot (67)

Captain Kagi (48)
Grand Inquisitor (13)
ST-321 (4)
Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Wow, didnt realize points drop now allows kagi with inqy crew, title.

Defenders now get an action after the highest init ship moves: boost roll, lock. Kagi just moves and reinforces, then coordinates with inqy and gets a lock. He absorbs locks from alpha strikes, vaders, etc. Defenders should not get touched until reinforced kagi drops.

I use this kagi with vader and dutchess. Might have to try this out.

Edited by wurms

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8 hours ago, wurms said:

Delta Squadron Pilot (67)

Delta Squadron Pilot (67)

Captain Kagi (48)
Grand Inquisitor (13)
ST-321 (4)
Total: 199

The Grand Inquisitor is an interesting innovation.

It strikes me that another way to construct it would be OGP (TGI), Delta (HLC), Delta (HLC) for 200.  Using The Grand Inquisitor to position someone for a 4-die HLC shot seems handy, and it keeps the pre-move coordinate option if you really need it.  Kagi is pretty tempting, though.  Against the right meta, seems great.

//

I've also thought a some about Kagi/Onyx/Onyx.  4 points left over for a pair of Crack Shot, a pair of FCS, ST-321, or maybe even Shield on the shuttle.  Init 4 is going to have strengths and weaknesses (foremost probably being cost), but there's something cool and pure about it IMHO.

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I know everyone is playing Hyperspace but I'm still interested in this archetype.

Do you have any news about it? I saw Jendon (Palp, Passive Sensors) + 2 Deltas (with FCS) lately. Looks interesting but I'm not sure about Jendons initativ.

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8 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

I know everyone is playing Hyperspace but I'm still interested in this archetype.

Do you have any news about it? I saw Jendon (Palp, Passive Sensors) + 2 Deltas (with FCS) lately. Looks interesting but I'm not sure about Jendons initativ.

I mean, later coordinate is probably not bad.  Getting those long-range locks with FCS for backup is also probably quite handy.  Meanwhile, after having set up Jendon, his potential to roll into range with Passive Sensors, maybe taking a calc for double mods with his old lock, maybe setting up a new lock, doesn't seem terrible.

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9 hours ago, Ryuneke said:

I know everyone is playing Hyperspace but I'm still interested in this archetype.

Do you have any news about it? I saw Jendon (Palp, Passive Sensors) + 2 Deltas (with FCS) lately. Looks interesting but I'm not sure about Jendons initativ.

Played it on local league, and destroyed a Luke + Wedge + Leia U-wing, 200 - 35.

The survivability of the defenders is scary, with 3 agility, 1 evade, 1 focus and palp it's really difficult to get damage through. Even a defender has to burn all that while defending, he'll still have a modded shot, while the other defender and the shuttle both have double mods.

It's a great jousting list, and i think the big advantage it has compared to OGP lists is how hard it punches on 1st engagement

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