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theBitterFig

Palp Defenders. Still.

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Only played one game with it, against some somewhat overloaded Firesprays, but this seems like it might be OK.

  • Delta Squadron Pilot (72)
  • Delta Squadron Pilot (72)
  • Omicron Group Pilot [Emperor Palpatine] (43+13=56)
    • total: 200, no bid.

Palp, while he can only convert focus results, is back to being an after-the-roll perfect knowledge effect.  The Coordinate on the Omicron is f'ing amazing.  Defenders are still pretty tanky.  Boost on them is amazing.  Unfortunately, there's not a lot of wiggle in the list if you want to keep double Defenders.  You could switch to a Reaper, but that white Coordinate seemed too valuable to give up.  Just a simple, fairly effective, mistake-proof list.  Kinda like the old Palp Defenders.

*edit* Two games.  The list feels kinda fair.  One Defender took 15 dice from Luke, two Bs, and a not-touching Arvel, and limped away at 1 HP.  Did far more than it should have after that.  3-hard + Boost really is fun on Defenders.  It gives them a brand new option for how to turn around, in a general sense.

Also, I've noticed that Full Throttle appears to work if you fly over an asteroid.  You've still fully executed a maneuver, and skipping your Perform Action step due to the obstacle doesn't seem to impact triggers after executing a maneuver.

*edit 2* I'm up to like 8-9 games without losing.  I don't necessarily think it's a large-tournament-top-tables list, but it's felt solid over time.

*edit 3* (July Update) I did crash and burn in February.  Two losses, before conceding to a player if they'd play a casual game against a different list.  Went a long time without practice.  Might be the kind of list which only could do really well in the early days of an edition, before folks have figured it out.  Still, seems like a totally reasonable list to fly, if you just want to put Defenders on the table.

Edited by theBitterFig

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10 hours ago, NABLA_OPERATOR said:

I like that list. I wonder if Juke-Whisper would be better than the Palp-Shuttle, I have to try it out :D

Two Deltas + Whisper was a list I enjoyed back in 1e.  They serve as a really nice anvil to Whisper's hammer.  The character is going to be totally different, however.  Unlike a shuttle, Whisper can't take a lot of incoming fire, so you'll have to aim to take it all on the Defenders to start.

Actually, what I'd been considering is to drop one of the Defenders for a Whisper or a Soontir Fel.  Having a force point to protect one of those would be nice, and a Defender can still be a threat if you can winnow down the rest of your opponent's list.  Juke/Vader or Juke/Advanced Sensors on Whisper would fit in nicely.  With Soontir, perhaps you upgrade the defender a little.  Filling the system slot would be nice (with any of the options! Advanced Sensors does cool things, particularly if coordinated too.  You probably have a free moment to establish a lock for FCS sometime.  Collision Detector can be great with the limited number of 3-5 speed moves a Defender truly wants to pull).  Mostly, the new shuttle just seems good.  It still flies like a garbage scow, but Coordinate and Reinforce are both really potent.  Preventing 3-4 damage in a round with Reinforce, or giving a Defender a key focus or TL when you know it'll bump, or pre-move reposition actions.  A rear arc that at least exists.

//

I guess part of what interests me about this list is how little it lost.  Palp isn't technically as good as 1e, but I think I've used him every round he's been on the board.  Your Defenders are Init 1 instead of PS 5/6, which sometimes matters, but really wasn't super important in 1e.  That said, it was a moderately high-ace environment, and the 2e meta is different.  So you lost a free action per turn on Vessery and Countess, and you lost Vessery's Juke.  That's it, and you gained a better overall shuttle, a shield on both Defenders, and a Boost.

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Palp still works on my "modify your results" step, right?

So perfect knowledge is not quite right. If I want to use him offensively I have to do so before the defender rolls his dice.

Also since a ship flying over an asteroid looses skips it's perform action step, I guess full throttle also does not trigger, since the Juke is a free action, right?

Same applies to advanced sensors.

Edited by c3lb

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58 minutes ago, c3lb said:

Palp still works on my "modify your results" step, right?

So perfect knowledge is not quite right. If I want to use him offensively I have to do so before the defender rolls his dice.

Also since a ship flying over an asteroid looses skips it's perform action step, I guess full throttle also does not trigger, since the Juke is a free action, right?

Same applies to advanced sensors.

Full throttle still triggers as long as you've fully executed your maneuver. 

 

Moving over an obstacle means you skip your perform action step otherwise, but Full Throttle is free. 

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And they got cheaper.  Makes sense in terms of overall performance, but locally some folks might disagree.

Anyhow, there's now 6 more points to play with.

  • Delta Squadron Pilot (70)
  • Delta Squadron Pilot (70)
  • Omicron Group Pilot [Emperor Palpatine] (43+11=54)

Options include: 

  • Fire Control Systems (2 points each) on the Defenders.  From experience, I think this will be good.  It's not too hard to have a Defender in a safe position to lock now and again, and FCS allows them to have red-dice mods, while saving both tokens for defense.
  • Electronic Baffle (2 points) on the Omicron.  Maybe.  It'd open up the dial a lot.
  • Tractor Beams (2 points each) on anything.  I could see this maybe getting used, but I'm not sure if it'd be worth the bid loss, let alone giving up a different upgrade.
  • Jamming Beam (0 points) these could just get added for free to everything.  I don't know that I'd ever use them.
  • Collision Detector (6 points) on the shuttle.  This could be really good.  Move the shuttle over a rock or debris, and still get an action or a shot.
  • Hull or Shield Upgrade on the shuttle (3-4 points).  Since the shuttle is currently at 10 hp, going up to 11 gives it an extra health to give before it yields half points.  I doubt that's really worth it in terms of tournament math.
  • Another new option: drop Palp, add Vader.  Crew Darth Vader might be solid.  There wouldn't be room for too many other upgrades in the list (3 left, so Hull on the shuttle?), but Vader eating tokens from either arc could be pretty decent.

I'm leaning towards either ColDet on the shuttle, for move movement flexibility, or towards FCS on the Deltas, and a baby-bid of 2 points.

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

And they got cheaper.  Makes sense in terms of overall performance, but locally some folks might disagree.

Anyhow, there's now 6 more points to play with.

  • Delta Squadron Pilot (70)
  • Delta Squadron Pilot (70)
  • Omicron Group Pilot [Emperor Palpatine] (43+11=54)

Options include: 

  • Fire Control Systems (2 points each) on the Defenders.  From experience, I think this will be good.  It's not too hard to have a Defender in a safe position to lock now and again, and FCS allows them to have red-dice mods, while saving both tokens for defense.
  • Electronic Baffle (2 points) on the Omicron.  Maybe.  It'd open up the dial a lot.
  • Tractor Beams (2 points each) on anything.  I could see this maybe getting used, but I'm not sure if it'd be worth the bid loss, let alone giving up a different upgrade.
  • Jamming Beam (0 points) these could just get added for free to everything.  I don't know that I'd ever use them.
  • Collision Detector (6 points) on the shuttle.  This could be really good.  Move the shuttle over a rock or debris, and still get an action or a shot.
  • Hull or Shield Upgrade on the shuttle (3-4 points).  Since the shuttle is currently at 10 hp, going up to 11 gives it an extra health to give before it yields half points.  I doubt that's really worth it in terms of tournament math.
  • Another new option: drop Palp, add Vader.  Crew Darth Vader might be solid.  There wouldn't be room for too many other upgrades in the list (3 left, so Hull on the shuttle?), but Vader eating tokens from either arc could be pretty decent.

I'm leaning towards either ColDet on the shuttle, for move movement flexibility, or towards FCS on the Deltas, and a baby-bid of 2 points.

Do people tend to go for the shuttle first? Vader and hull upgrade could help the shuttle survive by eliminating a focus, while increasing the deltas offense. Also, I think vader crew would increase aggro on the shuttle if you want enemies to go for shuttle first.

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19 hours ago, wurms said:

Do people tend to go for the shuttle first? Vader and hull upgrade could help the shuttle survive by eliminating a focus, while increasing the deltas offense. Also, I think vader crew would increase aggro on the shuttle if you want enemies to go for shuttle first.

I feel like games have usually gone better for me, if the shuttle is targeted first.  Vader aggro would probably help that.

//

Another variant occurred to me with the points cut:

  • Onxy Squadron Pilot (-) 76
  • Onxy Squadron Pilot (-) 76
  • Captain Kagi (-) 48

No upgrades, but everyone is Init 4.  I don't know if this would be better.  More potential for arc dodging, and pre-maneuver coordinated boosts and barrel rolls might help avoid blocks on predictable Defenders.  Additionally, Kagi being able to pull in Locks would help protect your Defenders from heavy alpha strikes, some of their worst fears.  Having to eat only focused and not locked attacks from Triple Upsilon might be nice.

But is Init 4 really high enough to make a difference?  I dunno if there's a lot of stuff you could arc dodge or init-kill.

Edited by theBitterFig

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As a note about bids, they appear to have gone way down, at least from what I gained last night. You can probably still run a 6-8 should you really want to ensure it, but 2-4 seems much more normal. No more 18 point shenaniganry from the scum (RIP Moldy Crow) or Redline. This obviously varies by area, but in general, you probably wouldn't have to worry about those three points from Vader nearly as much as before. 

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1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Using the shuttle aggressively is always good  - I'd suggest ST-321; that way you can keep using your awesome white co-ordinate but keep picking up target locks at the same time.

My starting point has been ST-321 on the OGP and 1 FCS on a Defender.  It requires that you be quite attentive as to which Defender is which, but otherwise does not effect how the list operates - it just gives you bonus Locks.  Very limited testing makes that look nice so far.

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2 hours ago, Rodafowa said:

Maybe use the points to turn the OGP into Jendon? Target locks for everyone in the first round of shooting! There's even points left to add FCS to one of the two Deltas.

From my experience, one of the most powerful things in the list is the fact that the shuttle can pre-boost or pre-barrel roll a defender before it moves.  I'm really hesitant to give that up.  Don't get me wrong, on paper, Jendon or Sai would be great.  In almost any other list, they'd be a huge improvement.  But I think there's a strange alchemy in Delta/Delta/OGP which makes it greater than the sum of it's parts.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Using the shuttle aggressively is always good  - I'd suggest ST-321; that way you can keep using your awesome white co-ordinate but keep picking up target locks at the same time.

Yep, ST-321 was the big miss in my pondering of options.

I almost wonder if it'd be worth dropping Palp for FCS on the Defenders, ST-321 and Collision Detector on the shuttle (couldn't afford Advanced Sensors, ST-321, and 2x FCS).  Then it'd be either a bid, a hull, or Freelance Slicer.  No, FSlicer can't be worth it... the conditions where it'd be good--your ships have shots on someone who is attacking the shuttle--are probably too rare to be better than bid or hull.

At very least, it'd be interesting to see how much the Emperor actually matters to the list.

41 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

My starting point has been ST-321 on the OGP and 1 FCS on a Defender.  It requires that you be quite attentive as to which Defender is which, but otherwise does not effect how the list operates - it just gives you bonus Locks.  Very limited testing makes that look nice so far.

I'm one of those players who'd be irked by the asymmetry.  I'm sure it'd work good, it just feels wrong to me.

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10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

 

I'm one of those players who'd be irked by the asymmetry.  I'm sure it'd work good, it just feels wrong to me.

Agreed.  I'm still going to see how well it works out, because I don't see much point to a bid, but lopsided Defenders does feel wrong.

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The emperor is massively gimped due to his ability only working with eyeballs!! Completely useless as it is now just a transferable force token.... if it worked for blanks then yes, great.. amazing  :/

 

Anyways im in the same boat with my palpy defenders list. At the moment I am thinking of adding additional crew to the OGP to bulk up on the points but the OGP is always the first to die as it is the easy target in comparison to the defenders.

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9 hours ago, william1134 said:

The emperor is massively gimped due to his ability only working with eyeballs!! Completely useless as it is now just a transferable force token.... if it worked for blanks then yes, great.. amazing  😕

 

Anyways im in the same boat with my palpy defenders list. At the moment I am thinking of adding additional crew to the OGP to bulk up on the points but the OGP is always the first to die as it is the easy target in comparison to the defenders.

Yes and no. Certainly gimped by the focus only but I still find it useful for keeping aces alive on defense. Not playing two defenders either, my current list is:

OGP-Palp 54

Rexlar-Juke-Jamming Beam 87

Soontir-Predator 54 or Whisper-Juke 59

playing Soontir leaves room for a bid at 195 and Whiper would bring the list to 200. I haven’t decided if I like whisper or Soontir more.

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10 hours ago, william1134 said:

The emperor is massively gimped due to his ability only working with eyeballs!! Completely useless as it is now just a transferable force token.... if it worked for blanks then yes, great.. amazing  😕

 

Anyways im in the same boat with my palpy defenders list. At the moment I am thinking of adding additional crew to the OGP to bulk up on the points but the OGP is always the first to die as it is the easy target in comparison to the defenders.

As I see it, 0-0-0 who works on every ship in your list regardless of range, where your opponent can't just choose to take a stress, is still pretty dang useful.  Considering that they nerfed the price of 0-0-0 to 5 (and he's almost surely still worth it), and buffed Palp down to 11, I think it seems like a fair and decent upgrade.

Is it pre-nerf 1e Palpatine?  No, but 2e Palp is a lot cheaper and pre-nerf 1e Palp was really underpriced--thus the nerf.

Is it as good per point as post-nerf 1e Palpatine?  Maybe.  There'd be times you'd waste his effect when declaring his use before you roll.  Palp going back to an after-you-roll decision makes up for some of the blank conversion, IMHO.

//

If I waffle on Palp, it's because he's the first upgrade I used in 2e, I've kept doing well with him.  But there's a false sense of security in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  I could be missing something better, and so I wonder.

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Have you thought of a reaper and Palp? Vermeil Palp is 60pts exactly. Feroph can be tanky. Vizier can do easy coordinates and leaves 4pts for fcs on deltas. Vizier can easily give deltas free locks with his ailerons letting them change targets when need be.

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12 minutes ago, wurms said:

Have you thought of a reaper and Palp? Vermeil Palp is 60pts exactly. Feroph can be tanky. Vizier can do easy coordinates and leaves 4pts for fcs on deltas. Vizier can easily give deltas free locks with his ailerons letting them change targets when need be.

I like it. Difficult to slow-roll with a Reaper, is the only thing. And you're losing the pre-maneuver coordinates for the Defenders.

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5 hours ago, wurms said:

Have you thought of a reaper and Palp? Vermeil Palp is 60pts exactly. Feroph can be tanky. Vizier can do easy coordinates and leaves 4pts for fcs on deltas. Vizier can easily give deltas free locks with his ailerons letting them change targets when need be.

You want to coordinate almost every turn, which is more difficult with the red coordinate.  At that point, the chief benefit of a Reaper, the better dial, is lost because you can't do the red maneuvers.  Also, the matching initiative numbers is a real bonus, allowing you to control activation order and arrange it to your advantage every time.

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8 hours ago, wurms said:

Have you thought of a reaper and Palp? Vermeil Palp is 60pts exactly. Feroph can be tanky. Vizier can do easy coordinates and leaves 4pts for fcs on deltas. Vizier can easily give deltas free locks with his ailerons letting them change targets when need be.

I bet it'd still be decent.  But I keep getting hung up on the alchemy of Init 1 with the option of coordianted pre-move boosts and barrel rolls.  I think in any list except Deltas, it'd be a potentially really strong upgrade to consider a Reaper over a Lambda.

2 hours ago, Clutterbuck said:

You want to coordinate almost every turn, which is more difficult with the red coordinate.  At that point, the chief benefit of a Reaper, the better dial, is lost because you can't do the red maneuvers.  Also, the matching initiative numbers is a real bonus, allowing you to control activation order and arrange it to your advantage every time.

Pretty much this.  I've been used to thinking a Reaper is a worse Lambda if you can't make good use of it's Ailerons and mobility.  Certainly the statline is weaker.  With coordinate being so strong in this list, red coordinates hamper the mobility a Reaper needs to thrive.  Built with Palp, there ins't a 3rd crew slot for Tactical Officer.

///

But... if you didn't run Palp...  Scarif Base Pilot with Tactical Officer is the same price as an Omicon Group Pilot.  If you're only towing one crew, there'd be some fun options.  Vader could be interesting.  Sloane can be a real jerk.  Having to avoid taking K-Turns or getting double-stress seems like it'd be really awkward against enemies who can white K-Turn.  Moff Jerjerrod is probably bad, but hilarious.  That'd be a huge amount of speed on an opening engagement with full tokens.

I think if I get around to testing non-Palp versions, I should probably try flying a reaper, too.

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Definitely recommend trying the Reaper. I'd describe it as a sidegrade rather than an up. It's obviously a totally different animal, with different weaknesses. No. 1 is that it'll die much faster if the other guy goes for it. Gives the squad a very different dynamic. 

Pre/post move coord is huge but you don't lose any of that with SBP and Deltas. You'll find that you can control the Reaper pretty well with the red coordinate but you will want to skip turns doing it, to utilise it's speed. So without Tac Officer, you do have to plan ahead a fair bit more.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Clutterbuck said:

You want to coordinate almost every turn, which is more difficult with the red coordinate.  At that point, the chief benefit of a Reaper, the better dial, is lost because you can't do the red maneuvers.  Also, the matching initiative numbers is a real bonus, allowing you to control activation order and arrange it to your advantage every time.

Not with "Vizier", it's not - his ability lets you execute your aileron move, perform a co-ordinate, then do your standard move and skip your action step.

It has some niche advantages over a tactical officer (letting you co-ordinate before a segnor's loop or stop, for example), but the biggest advantage is that you don't have to use a crew slot to carry a tactical officer, meaning you can take Palpatine in the back seat(s).

The initiative thing I see, though.

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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