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OnceFatal

Quick question on penetration and toughness

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Weapon Penetration is detailed on pages 127 and 128 of the DH core rules.  The same information is also available on page 114 or RT.  You can also refer to pages 194 and 195 of DH for the Applying Damage rules.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Those were the rules I had found before. They talk about penetration and amour, just doesn't mention toughness one way or the other.

It does seem to imply that toughness bonus works no matter what.  It just seems kind of counter-intuitive that a toughness bonus of 8 has more damage stopping potential than power armour (since something can be done to counteract the armour but nothing can counteract the toughness).

I just would have been more sure if one of the examples had had armor, penetration, and toughness all at once.  When I've been running my games, the three are quite common.

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OnceFatal said:

Those were the rules I had found before. They talk about penetration and amour, just doesn't mention toughness one way or the other.

It does seem to imply that toughness bonus works no matter what.  It just seems kind of counter-intuitive that a toughness bonus of 8 has more damage stopping potential than power armour (since something can be done to counteract the armour but nothing can counteract the toughness).

I just would have been more sure if one of the examples had had armor, penetration, and toughness all at once.  When I've been running my games, the three are quite common.

I know.  It's not as clear as it could be; many of us came from WHFRP 1st and 2nd Ed, so we had a little more to draw on from our experiences with those rules.  Cover is a fun one too...

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Those were the rules I had found before. They talk about penetration and amour, just doesn't mention toughness one way or the other.

They don't mention Strength Bonus either being added to psychic phenomena rolls or not. I don't see threads asking whether they are.

If something isn't said in a rule, it probably doesn't happen.

 

It does seem to imply that toughness bonus works no matter what. It just seems kind of counter-intuitive that a toughness bonus of 8 has more damage stopping potential than power armour (since something can be done to counteract the armour but nothing can counteract the toughness).

The reason would be that the TB just represents physical hardiness, not actual resistance to damage. Someone who gets a las-burn to the chest and reduces it to zero damage by TB still has a wound there - he's just tough enough not to particularly care.

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No, which makes your Toughness Bonus strangely superior to armour. I personally have TB function identically to Primitive Armour, with the caveat that it ignores Penetration.

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Then you loose the point of having it. And I also can't EVER see an chance for someone to get an 80 tough outside of a Tech Priest with an Array and Dragonskin/scale armor. Hell, it's the only reason our TP has a 70. But then again, he's mostly made of metal, so most things don't hurt him anyways.

 

And really? I've done horrible things to things with toughness with a chain knife. Granted, yes, it has tearing and pen 2, but it's all about the damage roll. I'd rather not see my toughness bonus become any MORE useless to me then it already is. As an assassin, it does exactly three things for me: Resist Toxins, Soak what damage I take IF I get hit, and allows me to carry stuff. I'm not exactly made of wounds, like some characters, so halving my TB because a weapon isn't primitive is a no go here.

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Uh, Toughness remains pretty **** useful, even if its damage reduction is rendered Primitive. Toxins are _far_ from the only thing it resists/affects (Fatigue, Suffocation, Infection, Vacuum, Diseases, Fatigue capacity, wound status, Talents like Iron Jaw, unconsciousness duration, the effects of certain injuries/attacks, psychic powers, etc, etc...), besides the other benefits you've mentioned. Currently it's something you almost always want to max, because it really is that important; besides the huge bonuses to survivability it grants in countless areas, Toughness is almost unmitigable armour. The fact that it, more often than not, proves better protection than Carapace Armour (after you factor in Penetration) is just silly.

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I've been pondering the nature of armor, toughness, and wounds for the purposes of conveying the properties of something very very large and what large scale weapons would be like (I'm putting together an adventure around a dreadnought and wondering how that would look).

What would something with 2 points of armor, 2 points of toughness, and 200 wounds look like?

Meanwhile what would something with 200 points of armor, but only 2 points of toughness and 2 wounds look like?

Meanwhile what would something with 2 points of armor, 200 points of toughness, and 2 wounds look like?

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OnceFatal said:

I've been pondering the nature of armor, toughness, and wounds for the purposes of conveying the properties of something very very large and what large scale weapons would be like (I'm putting together an adventure around a dreadnought and wondering how that would look).

What would something with 2 points of armor, 2 points of toughness, and 200 wounds look like?

Meanwhile what would something with 200 points of armor, but only 2 points of toughness and 2 wounds look like?

Meanwhile what would something with 2 points of armor, 200 points of toughness, and 2 wounds look like?

For the first, I'd imagine some sort of large and hideous blob, perhaps with a bit of a skin. It's easy to damage but by the Emperor, there's a lot of it.

The second would likely be a small creature encased in a big sphere of metal or something else that would confer AP. It would take a horrific amount of force to penetrate it but once that's done, it's easy to kill.

The third example is the toughest, I say (no pun intended). I'd imagine that this would be the opposite of 1. Something like a small creature made of some sort of extraordinarily tough material and a thin layer of armor over it. Almost impossible to cleave through but if you did it would split in two and die.

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Kylen's point is that some characters rely more on not getting hit (like his, for example.) while others have trouble avoiding the incoming swings of irate senior citizens using their walkers like clubs (like the team's Techpriest).  Most characters fall somewhere between these extremes (like our Guardsman).   Now can you guess between the three example characters what their Toughness modifiers are?

Psy-1985 (TP):   TB7, Dragonscale PA, dodges like an anvil on a high-grav world.

Kira Van Eisen (Guard):  TB4, Best-Q Carapace (Hexagrammic wards), Step Aside, Hard Target talents, dodges reasonably well.

Jerichus Khayer-Addin (Ass):  TB3, reinforced bodyglove, dodges like an Eldar on Meth.

Psy is pretty much immune to small to medium caliber projectile weapons and low yield lasers but lives in abject fear of anti-tank weapons.

Kira is reasonably tough and very stubborn.  She will usually save her reactions for larger threat attacks and ignore the weak stuff, then hopes for a well timed dodge or parry.

Jerichus is equally threatened by darn near anything.  If it hits him, it usually hurts him, sometimes very badly.  The trick is gluing him to the deckplating before the fight so he might not "pull a Neo" and dodge anyways.

Nerfing Toughness makes the big guy less viable but does little harm to the fast-yet-squishy guy.  Please note that Psy made many sacrifices to push his toughness up that high, including permanent reduction in other stats.   Plus against the kind of weapons (Meltagun or something equally unpleasant) that would ignore power armour as in the previous post's example the difference in damage soak is not actually all that huge .  ANY of the above characters would be in very real danger of molten-puddly-DOOM!  So the nearly 400kg Techpriest soaks 4 more than the skinny hiver...  Throne, but I would HOPE so!

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 Armour is intuitive, as are wounds.

That 200 point toughness is trickier to intuit.  Since penetration doesn't help with toughness, it's not that the laser beam bounces off Mr tough guy because a more focused laser would prevent that.  Penetration would work if the laser was just bouncing off.

However, I think I may have figured one way to do it.  Perhaps the laser goes completely through Mr Toughguy... just doesn't hurt anything vital, 'just a flesh wound'.  I think I may have it as toughness reflects the sort of bruising non-critical hurts that occur.   Really tough things are the kinds of folks who fight with a cauterized hole through their shoulder and don't notice it till later when it 'aches a bit'

It also adds a level of supernatural horror to creatures with demonic toughness  Yes your bullets are penetrating. Yes, the bloodletter is even bleeding a bit... however he's  still coming and you've not really inconvenienced him... but those bullets do hurt and he's even angrier now (if that's possible for a Bloodletter) .

So a 200 point toughness creature would be something that had no vital organs to speak of, waltzing through hails of gunfire with only cosmetic damage. Tank weapons?  Hurting it would require some sort of massive aggregate damage (like throwing it into the power core of a titan).

Yeah, if toughness works like that, it makes sense that penetration wouldn't help.  It also gives a nice and creepy way to convey it with demons.  

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I think a lot of this problem is that people play this game like a video game, or WoW. Number crunching and min/maxing all the way through. I won't say I'm guilt free of doing that, I've crunched my Tech-Priest to a couple of stupid numbers. But when playing this game you can't play it like others, with simple math working out every action and reaction. This game is cinematic and needs to be played as such. Your Toughness isn't really "armor", even though that's how it gets calculated out. It's more like what OnceFatal said, the person's ability to take a Bolter Shell though the chestplate of their armor and still shrug off their newly exploded pocket of flesh as no more than a booboo.

It's like how your wounds are mostly dramatic scaring and cutting... until your out. When you enter critical it's basically like your luck has run out and all of your opponents attacks are landing on vital or weak areas. Like pushing past 7 TB is basically like finding the area on the guy that wasn't made of steel (literally or figuratively).

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"Nerfing Toughness makes the big guy less viable but does little harm to the fast-yet-squishy guy. Please note that Psy made many sacrifices to push his toughness up that high, including permanent reduction in other stats. Plus against the kind of weapons (Meltagun or something equally unpleasant) that would ignore power armour as in the previous post's example the difference in damage soak is not actually all that huge . ANY of the above characters would be in very real danger of molten-puddly-DOOM! So the nearly 400kg Techpriest soaks 4 more than the skinny hiver... Throne, but I would HOPE so!"

Maybe so, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing for the game's balance overall, particularly given Toughness' remaining importance. Granted, Techpriests in particular suffer, but they are also amongst the most powerful and versatile careers in all of Dark Heresy.

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The techpriest's versatility comes not from her mechanical (no pun intended) aspects of the career, but the bakcground ones. Psyckers are as versatile as techpriests, and they compensate being able to (potentially) acquire most of the techpriest's capacities (implants) with the warp niceties (ooops, I accidentaly summoned a Keeper of Secrets...). However, people don't really understand techpriests: usually, the more powerfull they are, the less human they look, and I'm not talking about cosmetics only: they literally cut out chunks of their brain to put more cybernetics... So in the end, a techpriest can look like a bad copy of a necron, you know. And necrons are not PC options because they are... machines without will? So techpriest's prize for their versatility is... being completely narrow. They only care for technology, people is irrelevant. They cannot be full members of the Inquisition, in fact there would be missions where they might even be considered enemies of the group, and their loyalty is ONLY to the Omnisiah. They are tolerated because the Empire needs them to survive, nothing more. And of course, if your people thinks they are overpowered, then stop playing as Inquisitorial Acolytes and make an all-mechanicus party, working as a Mechanicus Inquisition as Tech Priests all of them. This is an RPG, you know, not a PvP game when people compete against each other to see how pull the biggest numbers. The only one with rigth to become desperate is the GM, and not because of something so venial as "I think techpriests can ignore most of the light weapons" (the fact is, without that high toughness and armour, a techpriest would wait confortably on board a ship while the mission gets done. He is a techfreak, for god's sake, not a combat class!).

 

As for the Toughness 200, 2 wounds and armor 2... A C'Than god might be that way. A dreadnought, on the other hand, would have about 20-30 armor (even 40 in some areas, like the front, for the Space Marine's Venerable assault dreadnought), about 20 wounds and a toughness of about 60-70. Yeah, that's hell... but you should ask yourself what a dreadnought is? A Space Marine's torso and head inside of a several-ton armored walker designed to face anything in melee... that includes greater demons, the Eldar's Avatar, C'than gods... (of course, the degrees of sucess are more... variable).

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"The techpriest's versatility comes not from her mechanical (no pun intended) aspects of the career, but the bakcground ones. Psyckers are as versatile as techpriests, and they compensate being able to (potentially) acquire most of the techpriest's capacities (implants) with the warp niceties (ooops, I accidentaly summoned a Keeper of Secrets...). However, people don't really understand techpriests: usually, the more powerfull they are, the less human they look, and I'm not talking about cosmetics only: they literally cut out chunks of their brain to put more cybernetics... So in the end, a techpriest can look like a bad copy of a necron, you know. And necrons are not PC options because they are... machines without will? So techpriest's prize for their versatility is... being completely narrow. They only care for technology, people is irrelevant. They cannot be full members of the Inquisition, in fact there would be missions where they might even be considered enemies of the group, and their loyalty is ONLY to the Omnisiah. They are tolerated because the Empire needs them to survive, nothing more. And of course, if your people thinks they are overpowered, then stop playing as Inquisitorial Acolytes and make an all-mechanicus party, working as a Mechanicus Inquisition as Tech Priests all of them. This is an RPG, you know, not a PvP game when people compete against each other to see how pull the biggest numbers. The only one with rigth to become desperate is the GM, and not because of something so venial as "I think techpriests can ignore most of the light weapons" (the fact is, without that high toughness and armour, a techpriest would wait confortably on board a ship while the mission gets done. He is a techfreak, for god's sake, not a combat class!)."

I'll be the first one to acknowledge how broken psykers are. However, as much as TPs may be _less_ broken compared to a Psyker they are still broken. It's not about PvP either, but about the fact that they are capable of doing almost everything (barring stealth and social interactions), and doing it very well. While their loyalties can conflict, clearly this is a non-factor when the TP is actually involved in a session.

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Lasers said:

I'll be the first one to acknowledge how broken psykers are. However, as much as TPs may be _less_ broken compared to a Psyker they are still broken. It's not about PvP either, but about the fact that they are capable of doing almost everything (barring stealth and social interactions), and doing it very well. While their loyalties can conflict, clearly this is a non-factor when the TP is actually involved in a session.

They can do almost everything because by using technology you can get a lot done. They can have a couple of bodyguards completely loyal (to a degree... I'm trying to figure if servitors can be "hacked" and how). Anyway you said the dooming words: "loyalty is not an issue because we are all PC's".

I advise you to read the old RPG called "Paranoia". Or the old Vampire: The Dark Ages (regarding the sections about Baali PC's...). And then rethink how player groups work. If you still think "since we are all PC's, loyalty is granted", then you need to exercise more your imagination, and write, using red ink, in your character's sheet, "this is a role-playing game". That means you should NEVER assume real life relations should have an effect inside the game (and if they have, then you better brive the GM a lot, because if he gets pissed of enough, you might get introduced to a Hive Tyrant...). Of course, when you begin the campaign "daddy" (that is, the Inquisitor for you all work for) has made the arrangements so there is little room for unloyalty in the group, but as the manual states, the older and powerful a techpriest becomes (not to mention the Explorators, the freak cousins of the freaker characters...), the harder it is to be sure of its real loyalty (implying its a "doomed character", in this case to wander off the group when it suits him, and going back, again, when he wants).

God, I remember a game of 7th Sea where we were all from different societies... and almost all of us sorcerers... In Castille, were "sorcery doesn't exist" (also with a VERY active old-style Inquisition). Three sessions later, only two characters were still on their feet (the GM's and a silent "observer"), and the other six players trying to figure out how the hell did we all lost a Battle Royale actually trying to AVOID it...

By the way, if the campaign starts and you are a group of acolytes with 4 NPC's to fill the gaps, what do you do? Kill them because you can't trust them?

Also, the fact that you all work for the Inquisition doesn't automatically means you work for the same Inquisitor. There are several inquisitors, several Ordos and each one has its personal agenda... not to mention some of them like to fight fire with fire (radicals...).

 

Also, most of the complaints here seems to come from the TP's fighting capacities (more than that, MELEE fighting capacities...). You know, mine has a WS of 74 using his trusty hellgun (military-issued backpack included) thanks to the +10 for Sollex background, +10 for laser aid, +10 for MUI, and in all the campaings we had the only time I fired (out of narrative actions) was against an angry ambull who tried to ambush us but became ambushed thanks to my Auspex turned to vibration-detection. Hell, my GM whines because I managed to defuse combat situations with planning, support and prevision (and the Imperial Guard player just wanna roll the damage dices, so I let him everytime I can). So what are you playing? Roleplaying or rolling dice?

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Actually, my complaint has relatively little to do with strictly the TP's fighting capabilities, and more his ability to excel, as said, at nearly anything. Further, do not put words into my mouth or assume that I believe OOC relationships have or should have a material impact on IC interactions, or that I 'take PC loyalty for granted'; sure backstabbing can go on and I don't deny this, but the bottom line is that everthing else being equal, the power discrepancy between the TP and other careers is significant and notable on multiple levels, and no amount of skullduggery changes that inherent mechanical imbalance. If the GM wants to complicate life for the TP by tethering him with conflicts of interest he can certainly do that, but that doesn't suddenly make the TP balanced against the other careers. Anyone can rule 0, but at the end of the day, the TP is still a broken career that outshines nearly every other (just like the Psyker).

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Didn't intended to put words in your mouth, and I aplogice if I did. This being said:

It's not the GM the one who should be putting the TP's loyalty into play, but the players. Well, in fact you have several factions if you look at the careers in DH and RT: the psyckers, the navigators, the TP's, the "zealots" (Sororitas and missionaries, I think)... and everyone else. An IG would look very warily to a Sororita, with their fame of burning first and not asking questions, or the freak who can move spoons with his mind... Oh god, that one has a third eye in his forehead... And that thing more machine than human? Is that blood, grease or what the hell???

Setting that matter aside, I'd like to insist in some points: A techpriest has limitations in certain fields where other careers are greatly overpowered (for example, in RT you look at spaceship combat and you will think: Void Masters and a Rogue Trader for that +10, I don't want anything else in the bridge), or a scum finding information NOT inside any cogitator (rumors, underdeveloped planets...), stalking a target, etc...

I'm not saying the class is balanced, I'm saying that this being a role-playing game where you play with your people in your house, your objective is to be sure everybody has fun. If you see some characters are being overshadowed by one, then think how can you manipulate the situation so they all have to work (and remember, unlike most Sci-Fi games here the info is usually stored in PAPER, not inside computers ^^). Also, you can give the TP something else to do, in our last adventure I spend almost all the time we were walking underground checking the Auspex (but then again, that was me stepping down and forcin... I mean letting other players to work).

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It wouldn't actually make sense to have Penetration as a separate weapon trait if it affected Toughness, since most of the time it would be exactly the same as just adding the Penetration value to the damage.

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