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GermanBlackbot

Attacking a ship at range 0, attack range 1

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5 minutes ago, GermanBlackbot said:

Nobody is saying that your interpretation isn't what they intended. In fact it's probably the easiest way to fix this (as the enemy still has to be in your firing arc to make him a legal target).

We're saying that it's not anywhere in the rules and the stuff that is there is in weird places. Every judge would beat you up with a newspaper should you attempt to argue that you can shoot missiles at range 0. That doesn't change the fact that it should be stated somewhere.

It needs to be stated in general that you can only attack a target which is at range 0 of you if an upgrade or pilot ability says so.

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39 minutes ago, GermanBlackbot said:

Nobody is saying that your interpretation isn't what they intended. In fact it's probably the easiest way to fix this (as the enemy still has to be in your firing arc to make him a legal target).

We're saying that it's not anywhere in the rules and the stuff that is there is in weird places. Every judge would beat you up with a newspaper should you attempt to argue that you can shoot missiles at range 0. That doesn't change the fact that it should be stated somewhere.

That doesn't make any sense. Why create a range restriction specific to secondary weapons in the rulebook when the restriction is already printed on the card? It's redundant and creates confusion by calling abilities like Major Rhymer's into question.

 

33 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It needs to be stated in general that you can only attack a target which is at range 0 of you if an upgrade or pilot ability says so.

This I agree with 100%.

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Doesn't being at range zero simply make a ship an invalid target? It doesn't matter if some other part of the ship is at a legal "Attack Range" you can't check because you can't declare the ship as a target in the first place. 

"Range" is determined first and that is determined irrespective of the firing arc. Range 1-3 must be met before a target is declared and you then proceed to determining what the range of the attack will be within the attacking ship's firing arc. Per page eight of the rulebook. 

Quote

To target a ship, two conditions must be met: • The target ship’s base must be in the attacker’s firing arc. • The target must be at range 1–3.

In the photo with the shuttle the shuttle can't be the target is it not at range 1-3 it is at range zero so you don't get to the point where you can find part of the ship at range one. Oicunn allows a range zero ship to be the target so you then proceed to determine the attack range of the portion of the ship in the applicable firing arc. 

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2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Doesn't being at range zero simply make a ship an invalid target? It doesn't matter if some other part of the ship is at a legal "Attack Range" you can't check because you can't declare the ship as a target in the first place. 

"Range" is determined first and that is determined irrespective of the firing arc. Range 1-3 must be met before a target is declared and you then proceed to determining what the range of the attack will be within the attacking ship's firing arc. Per page eight of the rulebook. 

In the photo with the shuttle the shuttle can't be the target is it not at range 1-3 it is at range zero so you don't get to the point where you can find part of the ship at range one. Oicunn allows a range zero ship to be the target so you then proceed to determine the attack range of the portion of the ship in the applicable firing arc. 

That might be the quote we've all been missing.

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10 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

"Range" is determined first and that is determined irrespective of the firing arc. Range 1-3 must be met before a target is declared and you then proceed to determining what the range of the attack will be within the attacking ship's firing arc. Per page eight of the rulebook. 

Well, no. Because if we go strictly by the rule book I can attack ships in range 3, but beyond attack range 3. You only measure once, remember?

Either you acknowledge the very next sentence (which talks about measuring in arc) or you ignore it, but both provide problems. Besides, the Rules Reference should contain all the relevant rules.

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7 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I think the issue is that Oicunn should say you can declare targets at Range Zero for primary attacks.

That's pretty much what he says, though. RR: You measure range, choose a weapon, declare a target according to weapon range. His primary weapon simply overrules the fact that you can't attack ships at range zero.

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20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Ugh, I checked this in reference to another thread, and that quote is *not in the Rules Reference*.  The RR attack sequence doesn't include that restriction, and overrides the Core Set rulebook.

The RR does not override it. The RR says under "Target" a "successfully targeted enemy ship is the defender." Range Zero is clearly defined in the RR. Under "attack range" talks about the difference between measuring for attack range and other abilities. I contend that targeting is not an attack range ability.

The RR says you "choose a defender" who has to be successfully targeted. You can not successfully target a ship at range zero. There is nothing in the RR that contradicts the rulebook under "Targeting Restrictions."

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3 hours ago, Felix1942 said:

Say I have zeb crew and were at range 0, could I attack with a secondary that required range 1-2,  could I attack with a secondary weapon that required it to be range 2-3?

No. Zeb specifies a primary attack.

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@Frimmel: The problem then is that the RR should contain everything. It is not reasonable to have every rule in the RR but still having to cross reference the core rules just in case something is missing. So nothing you said changes the fact that they should really clarify this inside the RR.

Edited by GermanBlackbot

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2 hours ago, GermanBlackbot said:

@Frimmel: The problem then is that the RR should contain everything. It is not reasonable to have every rule in the RR but still having to cross reference the core rules just in case something is missing. So nothing you said changes the fact that they should really clarify this inside the RR.

Yup.  The RR should eb entirely independent of, and entirely overriding of, the Core Set rulebook, because it shouldn't be necessary to visit two different documents and compare them in this much detail to find the rule you need.

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Quote

(from Rules Reference)

ATTACK

Ships can perform attacks which thematically represents the ship firing its blaster cannons, ordnance, or other weapons. If a ship performs an attack, it becomes the attacker then follows these steps:

1. Declare Target: During this step, the attacking player identifies and names the defender of the attack.

a. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.

b. Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons.

c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined by the weapon.

d. Pay Costs: The attacker must pay any costs for performing the attack.

 

During the Declare Target step, the attack arc is the arc that corresponds to the chosen weapon. The attack range is determined by measuring range from the closest point of the attacker to the closest point of the defender that is in the attack arc.

• A primary weapon requires the attack range to be range 1–3. A primary weapon has no cost by default.

• Special weapons have different requirements specified by the source of the attack.

• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay the costs required for the attack, the attacking player either chooses a different weapon or chooses not to attack.

---

ATTACK ARC

During an attack, the attack arc is the arc that corresponds to the weapon the attacker is using. During the Declare Defender step, the opposing ship needs to be in the attack arc.

ATTACK RANGE

During an attack, the attack range is determined by measuring range from the closest point of the attacker to the closest point of the defender that is in the attack arc.

• While measuring range for abilities that do not specify the attack range, the range between the attacker and the defender is measured from the closest point of the attacker to the closest point of the defender, ignoring the attack arc.

---

Range 0 does not appear on the range ruler, but is used for describing the range of objects that are physically touching.

◊ After a ship partially executes a maneuver, it is at range 0 of the last ship it overlapped.

◊ An object is at range 0 of an obstacle or device if it is physically on top of it.

◊ A ship is at range 0 of another ship if it is physically touching another ship.

◊ If two ships are at range 0 of each other, they remain at range 0 until one of the ships moves in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact.

◊ Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it.

---

(from RuleBook)

Targeting Restrictions

To target a ship, two conditions must be met:

• The target ship’s base must be in the attacker’s firing arc.

• The target must be at range 1–3. The attacker measures to the closest point of the target that is in the attacker’s firing arc; this measurement is called the attack range.

Example of Targeting 

The TIE fighter is attempting to attack the X-wing. Part of the X-wing’s base is in the TIE fighter’s ?, so the first requirement is satisfied. The closest point of the X-wing’s base that is in the ? is at range 2, so the second requirement is satisfied. Thus, the TIE fighter can attack the X-wing. Note that although the attack range is range 2, the two ships are at range 1 for all other purposes (outside the firing arc).

I've marked in black the more relevant parts. And included the example from RuleBook.

 

 What I read (and counting that English is a foreign language to me), the two sources establish the same rule: the closest point in the arc determines the attack range. So, if you touch a ship out of the attack arc, you can fire the ship whenever you have a weapon with the proper range. Following the example, if you reduce the ranges to 1, 0 (for 2, 1) you can read: Note that although the attack range is range 1, the two ships are at range 0 for all other purposes (outside the firing arc).

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6 hours ago, GermanBlackbot said:

@Frimmel: The problem then is that the RR should contain everything. It is not reasonable to have every rule in the RR but still having to cross reference the core rules just in case something is missing. So nothing you said changes the fact that they should really clarify this inside the RR.

The documents only become unclear when arguing with a pendant trying to break the rules by skipping a key part of the rules. The intent of the rules is clear. Picking a target has a bunch of things that simultaneously get determined because you are often choosing between several options. 

Ships at range zero are not legal targets. The Rulebook clearly defines what needs to occur in order to target a ship on page eight. 

Quote

Targeting Restrictions

To target a ship, two conditions must be met:

• The target ship’s base must be in the attacker’s firing arc.

• The target must be at range 1–3.

The attacker measures to the closest point of the target that is in the attacker’s firing arc; this measurement is called the attack range.

 Range and Attack Range are not the same thing.

First you need to be "in arc" and then you need to be at a legal Range.

If these conditions are met you have a target who is now eligible to be declared a defender to whom you many now determine the attack range.  See the Rules Reference page eighteen: 

Quote

TARGET

The target of an attack is declared during the Declare Target step. A successfully targeted enemy ship is the defender.

Only after there is a target is the Attack Range determined. A target is not determined by the Attack Range but the Attack Range confirms if a target can be declared a defender. 

However, one wants to know the Attack Range before determining which of their weapons to use. The Rules Reference is making it legal to determine Attack Range before you've declared a defender so you can choose which weapon to use. The Rules Reference is making it legal to determine this condition for more than one ship at a time. Before your attack you need to know eligible targets and eligible targets at specific attack ranges for particular weapons. The Rules Reference is allowing you to gather all of this simultaneously but it does not override The Rulebook on determining an eligible target in the first place.  

The Rules Reference is only not clear if you're deliberately trying to obfuscate the rules. Stop trying to deliberately obfuscate the rules to show how smart you are. ? Prost!

 

Edited by Frimmel
addition of "A target is not determined by the Attack Range but the Attack Range confirms if a target can be declared a defender. "

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Actually, a target is defined by the attack range.

Quote

The target of an attack is declared during the Declare Target step

Declare Target Step :

Quote

c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship
to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined
by the weapon.

Quote

A primary weapon requires the attack range to be range 1–3. A primary
weapon has no cost by default

Target is defined by weapon requirement, weapon requirement are defined by attack range.

--------------------

I saw in intresting point in another topic : You cannot realy mesure attack range 0.
The range is mesured by "closest point", attack range adds "in arc", but that not how you mesure a range 0.
Range 0 is a special case resolved by touching.
When you touch a ship, the closest point is still at range 1, but range 0 is overruling this.
Thus, range attack 0 would also be resolved by touching, overruling the "closet point in arc".

That would fixe le loop hole.

 

Edited by NerroSama

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26 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

another question for range 0, slightly related. If you attack someone at Range 0 with an upgrade or pilot ability, do you get the Range 1 bonus? from what I remember, range bonus is Range 1 only, right?

You get the range one bonus at range zero. RR page fifteen: 

Quote

For attack range 0–1, the attacker rolls one additional attack die during the Roll Attack Dice step.

 

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1 hour ago, NerroSama said:

Actually, a target is defined by the attack range.

But the attack range isn't determined unless you can first be targeted per the Rulebook page eight. 

Quote

To target a ship, two conditions must be met:

• The target ship’s base must be in the attacker’s firing arc.

• The target must be at range 1–3.

The attacker measures to the closest point of the target that is in the attacker’s firing arc; this measurement is called the attack range.

There is no attack range unless the conditions are met. "At" and "range #-#" is clearly defined in the RR on page fifeteen. No target. No attack range. No defining the target by the attack range. 

The player may determine the attack range before choosing a weapon and before choosing a defender. After choosing a weapon and choosing a defender the attack ranges must match but a ship being a target in arc and at range 1-3 has to come first. Nothing in the RR overturn this. Everything says attack range and you don't have that unless "in arc" and "at range 1-3." 

Is anyone actually arguing absent Oicunn or Zeb you can attack a ship you are in contact with or is everyone just nit-picking the RR?

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21 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Is anyone actually arguing absent Oicunn or Zeb you can attack a ship you are in contact with or is everyone just nit-picking the RR?

This is absolutely nitpicking for fun sake.
If someone tries to really argue that during a match, I'll be the first one to bash his head with a conversion kit.

Edited by NerroSama

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Nobody is arguing you can do it. I think everyone said that at least once.
The discussion at this point is  not "Can you do it?" but "Should we expect all the rules to be inside the RR or should we expect rules to be resolved differently once we take the rule book into account?"

And no, this is not purely academic. I have seen posts by people who were wondering "Wait...did that change?" because we most people preach "Forget everything about 1.0, it will just confuse you." Even those people leaned towards "I'm sure it didn't change, but the rules are ambiguous".

Personally I think that yes, the RR should be the definitive source of all rules. The Rule Book is intended to teach someone to play, the RR is intended to look something up during play and to go into more detail. I should not follow the RR and run into an issue that is only described in the Rule Book.

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So, what do you think

If arvel crynyd's attacking an enemy ship at rage 0, that is inside his firing arc at range 0, does he roll 3 attack dice? 2 standard plus a range 1 attack die?

Please say yes. The opposite seems illogic to me.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, brupl said:

So, what do you think

If arvel crynyd's attacking an enemy ship at rage 0, that is inside his firing arc at range 0, does he roll 3 attack dice? 2 standard plus a range 1 attack die?

Please say yes. The opposite seems illogic to me.

Attackers explicitly gain their range combat bonus at Range 0-1, so yes, three dice.

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