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Do away with cards?

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9 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

There are zero Imperial players sticking with 1.0 as we have so many usable ships now. 

WWWWrrrrroooooooooonnnnnnnnggggggggg.

Darth Meanie, Imperial player, sticking with 1.0.

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 5:11 PM, Vontoothskie said:

A huge number of players just quit because the cards dont have point totals on them. If you got rid of cards a lot more would quit too.

 

15 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

[CITATION NEEDED]

Well, there's Vontoothskie and me.

2 is a huge number if you are a Gully Dwarf.

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hmmm...

 

Atm, after playing some 2.0 I'm not super impressed. There is a new-ness factor, that stops meta-learning from being as useful now. But eventually the game will mature and there will be some good things.  Now hopefully they can make other things competitive simply by changing the points. 

However, I sure hope there's a database/API for this, and the ability to see it clearly, and have it updated on different builders. 

 

Anyway, playing with random pilots is still just the same as it used to be. If that's fine with you then fine, but the list building aspect is required for anything rather strong. 

Largely the game feels the same. And converting takes so much money and time. And now I've got sooo many ships I have no idea what to do with. 

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13 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

By any chance were these players who flew nothing but brain dead rebel/scum turret and/or cancer lists?

There are zero Imperial players sticking with 1.0 as we have so many usable ships now. 

Brain dead and needless insult aside (it s not even an original insult) , in my experience it's exactly the opposite.

 

Most people I know that are sticking to 1.0 don't play competitively. As such, they don't really encounter the issues that brought about 2.0 and see little need to pay some $$$ just for the sake of upgrading. 

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On 9/15/2018 at 8:58 PM, You Look Like A Nail said:

[citation needed]

 

For me, in 1st Ed, I stopped using cards entirely and just played with a printout from YASB.  I did this because:

  1. So many cards to play with (upgrade card spam) made packing/setup/cleanup take forever;
  2. Lots of cards were errata'd and the printout was at least up to date;
  3. The cards weren't so great looking anyway.

In 2.0, there are a lot fewer cards on the table, generally speaking, and the ones you do need I think are a lot more visually appealing and usable than the old ones.  So I'm actually switching back to using real cards instead of a printout.

But, YMMV, if you're having fun you're doing it right.

citation Not needed, lol. that's not how conversations work

separate from that I appreciate your reasoned and reasonable comment, and I think you're spot on. that's obviously why FFG thought it would be okay. 

I do however think its backfired a bit.  they kept the competitive players but lost what appears to be a huge percentage of casuals, steering the game as a whole towards the wargame crowd.  People simply don't like to spend a grand on a game and then learn that its changed, because the new thing isn't necessarily what they bought into.  Like why spend $350 to upgrade your epic collection when epic isnt even in 2.0? casuals are more likely to fly thematic, asthetic, or epic lists, make custom cards, custom paint, make terrain, make scenarios, etc. because they're ROLE playing spaceships .... whereas tourney players are more likely to fly whatever the math says is good because they are ROLL playing, aka power gaming.  This split has been going on as long as gaming has, so most games pick a primary audience at the outset and stick with it.  In this case though, FFG switched halfway through.  the Beer and pretzel "you sunk my Boba-fett!" game of X-wing was redesigned as an MTG style "GOTCHYA" scenario where players endeavoured to win before the game began by researching the most broken combinations.  That element was toned down by nerfing a few things in 2.0, but the worst offenders(alpha strikes and initiative abuse) are still baked into the new game. 

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The cool thing about full-digital cards is that you could easily put the points costs and the upgrade slots back on!

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, that's mostly how they do it in Hordes/Warmachine.  Physical cards kinda exist, but errata has left them behind.  Damage on Warbeasts and 'Jacks can even be supported in the App.

One think I really wish they brought over from Hordes?  Base sizes should be listed in the app and on the points lists.  I mean (S) (M) (L) after the ship name isn't too much clutter.

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The game couldn't be more popular in our area now. We've had a huge spike in interests and a lot of people who got out of the game due to the power creep and loss of the core of the game are coming back to it and overall impressions from everyone here has been great. I don't know anyone personally who left the game because the points weren't printed on the cards. That seems like an odd reason. 

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Most force-building games now that use online builders have very nice print-outs that arrange everything in a clear and lovely way for you and your opponent to see it all.  Ideally, this would have been how X-Wing was handled, in a way that made the cards optional if you were willing to print out a squad list (which would include the cards).  Many players did this during 1.0 casual games via various squadbuilders because it was much easier than digging out all your physical cards for the two or three lists you wanted to fly that night.


That said, cardboard is a huge part of FFG's sales for their tabletop miniature games, and between X-Wing, Armada, and Legion plenty of expansions have been sold merely because the customer wanted the card(s) inside.

 

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It was my concept for the function of the app back when we were all only postulating the idea of a new edition. I was in several conversations where that was idea. Yours have the app with you on your phone, on your tablet or computer at work or home or school for easier interface, then show up to your game with your models, open the app and hit play. It brings up a dashboard of your list syncs up to your opponents, and could record the exchanges, the token state, have the dice, everything. Only consistent problem was at that point... Why have models? Just play on the computer.I still like the idea though.

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2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

 

I do however think its backfired a bit.  they kept the competitive players but lost what appears to be a huge percentage of casuals, steering the game as a whole towards the wargame crowd.  People simply don't like to spend a grand on a game and then learn that its changed, because the new thing isn't necessarily what they bought into.  Like why spend $350 to upgrade your epic collection when epic isnt even in 2.0? casuals are more likely to fly thematic, asthetic, or epic lists, make custom cards, custom paint, make terrain, make scenarios, etc. because they're ROLE playing spaceships .... whereas tourney players are more likely to fly whatever the math says is good because they are ROLL playing, aka power gaming.  This split has been going on as long as gaming has, so most games pick a primary audience at the outset and stick with it.  In this case though, FFG switched halfway through.  the Beer and pretzel "you sunk my Boba-fett!" game of X-wing was redesigned as an MTG style "GOTCHYA" scenario where players endeavoured to win before the game began by researching the most broken combinations.  That element was toned down by nerfing a few things in 2.0, but the worst offenders(alpha strikes and initiative abuse) are still baked into the new game. 

I think that is actually a pretty good comparison between XWM and other games.

I also agree that, while you and I have become the anti-2.0 poster children, a lot of other casuals are silently walking away.  The "Can I have your stuff" thread has shown that there is a fairly large contingent (that were previously silent) that are considering 2.0 as the tipping point of "no longer interested."  Usually because of the casual/thematic/roleplaying issues.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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11 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

citation Not needed, lol. that's not how conversations work

separate from that I appreciate your reasoned and reasonable comment, and I think you're spot on. that's obviously why FFG thought it would be okay. 

I do however think its backfired a bit.  they kept the competitive players but lost what appears to be a huge percentage of casuals, steering the game as a whole towards the wargame crowd.  People simply don't like to spend a grand on a game and then learn that its changed, because the new thing isn't necessarily what they bought into.  Like why spend $350 to upgrade your epic collection when epic isnt even in 2.0? casuals are more likely to fly thematic, asthetic, or epic lists, make custom cards, custom paint, make terrain, make scenarios, etc. because they're ROLE playing spaceships .... whereas tourney players are more likely to fly whatever the math says is good because they are ROLL playing, aka power gaming.  This split has been going on as long as gaming has, so most games pick a primary audience at the outset and stick with it.  In this case though, FFG switched halfway through.  the Beer and pretzel "you sunk my Boba-fett!" game of X-wing was redesigned as an MTG style "GOTCHYA" scenario where players endeavoured to win before the game began by researching the most broken combinations.  That element was toned down by nerfing a few things in 2.0, but the worst offenders(alpha strikes and initiative abuse) are still baked into the new game. 

Citation Needed as in, you have no evidence for that assertion and I don't agree that it's true.  Apology for the snark but I stand by my doubt that casuals are leaving the game in significant numbers.  If anything, in my non-scientifically-polled opinion, it was worse for casuals before 2.0 dropped.  That was the period when the casual players I know and talk to were getting burnt out, and so was I.

I've never played in a tournament, or even played in a store.  I made asteroids out of styrofoam and often use terrain that isn't even shaped like the official rock templates (and I don't necessarily use 6 of them!).  I listen to Shuttle Tyderium, not Krayts.  My page in the painting forum is huge.  I am the epitome of the filthy casual kitchen table X-Wing player.  And I'm super excited for 2.0 as are all of my filthy casual friends.  If they hadn't dropped 2.0 and it hadn't looked like it does, I would have been out by the end of the year.

The reason is pretty simple: the biggest problem with 1.0 for my kind of casual player isn't support for thematic formats or scenarios or whatever, we were already doing all that for ourselves.  FFG was never good at that stuff anyway.  The biggest problem was the incredible bloat of upgrades, 90% of which were plain useless, and an ever escalating power curve.  Some of my friends didn't buy ships as often as I do and couldn't compete with the TLTs and harpoons and whatever the latest nonsense hotness was that came along, so I was buying ships that I wanted and then worrying over which upgrades and ships I could field without feeling like I was going to steam-roller them.  I had to work hard not to win the game in list building and that just isn't fun.  Balance isn't just for tournaments, it's for everybody.

What I want out of X-Wing, what I (as a filthy casual) need FFG to provide me, is a game where how you play on the tabletop is more important than list building, where upgrades are less important than the chassis and how you fly it, where most ships and a good variety of lists are usable and where the number of NPEs are sharply limited.  I want my buddy to put together whatever ships he likes and I can do the same and we can have a fair and interesting game where we both have a shot at winning.  2.0 does all that.  Maybe down the road they'll lose the plot but the stated design goals for 2.0 are exactly what I was looking for, and so far, so good.

If anything I think the casual scene is going to grow pretty strongly in the next little while.  

I have no evidence that casuals are broadly happy with the game and you have none that they aren't, we'll need to see how the game evolves over the next while, but speaking as a casual player, 2.0 saved X-Wing for me.

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17 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Citation Needed as in, you have no evidence for that assertion and I don't agree that it's true.  Apology for the snark but I stand by my doubt that casuals are leaving the game in significant numbers.  If anything, in my non-scientifically-polled opinion, it was worse for casuals before 2.0 dropped.  That was the period when the casual players I know and talk to were getting burnt out, and so was I.

I've never played in a tournament, or even played in a store.  I made asteroids out of styrofoam and often use terrain that isn't even shaped like the official rock templates (and I don't necessarily use 6 of them!).  I listen to Shuttle Tyderium, not Krayts.  My page in the painting forum is huge.  I am the epitome of the filthy casual kitchen table X-Wing player.  And I'm super excited for 2.0 as are all of my filthy casual friends.  If they hadn't dropped 2.0 and it hadn't looked like it does, I would have been out by the end of the year.

The reason is pretty simple: the biggest problem with 1.0 for my kind of casual player isn't support for thematic formats or scenarios or whatever, we were already doing all that for ourselves.  FFG was never good at that stuff anyway.  The biggest problem was the incredible bloat of upgrades, 90% of which were plain useless, and an ever escalating power curve.  Some of my friends didn't buy ships as often as I do and couldn't compete with the TLTs and harpoons and whatever the latest nonsense hotness was that came along, so I was buying ships that I wanted and then worrying over which upgrades and ships I could field without feeling like I was going to steam-roller them.  I had to work hard not to win the game in list building and that just isn't fun.  Balance isn't just for tournaments, it's for everybody.

What I want out of X-Wing, what I (as a filthy casual) need FFG to provide me, is a game where how you play on the tabletop is more important than list building, where upgrades are less important than the chassis and how you fly it, where most ships and a good variety of lists are usable and where the number of NPEs are sharply limited.  I want my buddy to put together whatever ships he likes and I can do the same and we can have a fair and interesting game where we both have a shot at winning.  2.0 does all that.  Maybe down the road they'll lose the plot but the stated design goals for 2.0 are exactly what I was looking for, and so far, so good.

If anything I think the casual scene is going to grow pretty strongly in the next little while.  

I have no evidence that casuals are broadly happy with the game and you have none that they aren't, we'll need to see how the game evolves over the next while, but speaking as a casual player, 2.0 saved X-Wing for me.

Well said.  Though some of the Scum threads have me a little nervous.

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If they did somewhere between what they're doing with LOTR and Descent/IA/MOM, especially if we somehow got single-player/coop campaigns or at the least variant scenarios out of it... yeah, I'd be down.

If they did something like that, I expect they would go more to the side of the app companion rather than full-on-game-in-app but maybe there's a middle that works as well.

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On 9/16/2018 at 4:10 PM, HolySorcerer said:

By any chance were these players who flew nothing but brain dead rebel/scum turret and/or cancer lists?

There are zero Imperial players sticking with 1.0 as we have so many usable ships now. 

Imperial only player here, still playing 1.0 and having a blast. But the rebels around me playing 1.0 aren't braindead enough to drive me nuts I presume.

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3 minutes ago, DampfGecko said:

Imperial only player here, still playing 1.0 and having a blast. But the rebels around me playing 1.0 aren't braindead enough to drive me nuts I presume.

That's the thing about 1.0.  It's super easy to break if you want to play that way, but quite serviceable when you just play nice.

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13 hours ago, TheRabidAardvark said:

Translation:
 

"I'm a luddite who can't back up my statements, so I will refuse to provide proof to things I have stated as fact.  Also, I have the intelligence of a mentally disabled rock."

Dude, come on. I’m not a fan of Von, but this kind of insults is neither productive or worthwhile. You could have pointed out that you don’t think he has proof for his claims in way more constructive ways than just name calling.

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6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

That's the thing about 1.0.  It's super easy to break if you want to play that way, but quite serviceable when you just play nice.

But playing nice is subjective and means different things to different people. Just as a term like “thematic play” is far more inclusive of lists than people present it as.

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The evidence here is more casual players are playing now than in 1.0. This is at 3 gaming stores and 2 gaming bars/pubs. I know this is anecdotal to the area here, but i've heard the same in orlando, and other areas in florida. 

Edited by Arc170Chris

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14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm finding a lot of ships are not nearly as different or unique of gameplay as I thought. And... this isn't good. 

Man, I feel the direct opposite. Everything feels different, even the tie fighter feels different and nothing changed for it but things changed for other ships and that makes it feel different.

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On 9/16/2018 at 2:32 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

[CITATION NEEDED]

I am not converting because of the cards not having their costs/upgrades printed on them. I am not converting because this same fact allows a lousy company become even lousier. I am not converting because this enables manipulation of meta to suit a business need.

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3 hours ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

If anything I think the casual scene is going to grow pretty strongly in the next little while.  

 

And then fall away as the bloat comes back.

2.0 is mostly a sweeping away of the power creep that 1.0 accumulated. A "soft reboot", so to speak. But there's no reason to think that it will be "evergreen". Useless upgrades and ships will exist, and we'll get the 2.0 equivalent of Jumpmasters and Harpoon Missiles. (I think the prequel factions is where power creep is going to accelerate, we'll see...) If your happiness as a "filthy casual" is based on such thing, then 2.0 is going to be a temporary situation for you. Enjoy it while it lasts. :)

Edited by Koing907

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14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The cool thing about full-digital cards is that you could easily put the points costs and the upgrade slots back on!

Anyhow, that's mostly how they do it in Hordes/Warmachine.  Physical cards kinda exist, but errata has left them behind.  Damage on Warbeasts and 'Jacks can even be supported in the App.

One think I really wish they brought over from Hordes?  Base sizes should be listed in the app and on the points lists.  I mean (S) (M) (L) after the ship name isn't too much clutter.

Yeah, I really like that cards are not needed for Warmahordes. It allows the developers to errata any cards as needed, and everyone either uses the App to track things, or if you prefer the physical cards, they have a tool that allows you to print out updated physical cards for your entire list at no cost.

I really, really, really wish FFG would go this route, but I think encouraging the purchase of new models by scattering competitively required upgrade cards into new releases is part of their business model.

Edited by kris40k

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13 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

And then fall away as the bloat comes back.

2.0 is mostly a sweeping away of the power creep that 1.0 accumulated. A "soft reboot", so to speak. But there's no reason to think that it will be "evergreen". Useless upgrades and ships will exist, and we'll get the 2.0 equivalent of Jumpmasters and Harpoon Missiles. (I think the prequel factions is where power creep is going to accelerate, we'll see...) If your happiness as a "filthy casual" is based on such thing, then 2.0 is going to be a temporary situation for you. Enjoy it while it lasts. :)

Maybe?  A lot of the problems with 1.0 were structural and have now been fixed.  There's no inherent reason that it has to degenerate from here.  They've set themselves up to succeed.  Doesn't mean they will, but now they can.  

I guess it comes down to how you approach things.  I'm not going to assume things can only get worse.  If you come into it with that outlook then I don't know why you'd still be playing, why not quit and do something more productive with your time?  I like what they're doing right now and we'll see what happens. 

 

Also: +1 to the WMH approach being so good.  I don't use cards in WMH anymore and I really don't miss them, the app just does everything I need and makes everything easier.  X-Wing really should have gone that way.  I can live with the cards-required approach but it does feel like a missed opportunity.

 

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7 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Maybe?  A lot of the problems with 1.0 were structural and have now been fixed.  There's no inherent reason that it has to degenerate from here.  They've set themselves up to succeed.  Doesn't mean they will, but now they can.  

This is my hope, but a lot of the Scum discussions have really shaken my faith in this.  2.0 was supposed to do away with untouchable token stackers, but there's already a Scum thread claiming to have precisely such a list.  2.0 was supposed to ensure that at least as much thought and decision-making goes into flying a list as building it, but we already have players making lists designed around taking a couple turns to make your ship permanently cloaked, and then just trying to stay near enemies so that the list just works automatically.  2.0 was supposed to reign in overly-efficient action economy, yet Scum get cards like Jabba to let them get incredibly useful bonuses without the need for actions or even a real penalty (like taking a stress or losing a shield).

I hope I'm simply overreacting, but it just feels like FFG spent time making sure to bring Rebels and Imperials into the 2.0 philosophy, while deciding that Scum were ok sticking with 1.0-esque designs.

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