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X-Wing TMG 2.0 Feels Watered Down

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Why do the majority of cards feel like weakened versions of the originals? Most of the re-released cards don't feel as dynamically interesting as their 1.0 versions. This is what I don't get: In addition to ship base changes why wasn't the introduction of versatile point values and upgrade slots enough for most of the game? Why redesign so many hallmark X-Wing TMG cards?
 

Maybe I'm getting use to the new stuff, but they don't feel as inspiring as the 1.0 collection. I find myself not as interested in the effects and generally thinking about the old ones. Some of the stuff is pretty cool but SO many in 1.0 had me staring at squad builders every week it doesn't feel as grand it feels more like a loss. This is just my initial impression of 2.0 and I hope it gets better with the full release of it.

Edited by D00kies

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Would they not have been balanced with the point costs and upgrade slots? Was it embarrassing to see more accurate values for existing cards? How could a card like Lone Wolf not be balanced, or Black Market Slicer Tools be a bad design?

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The feeling I get so far (having not played 2.0 but just handling cards and listbuilding) is that I'm not slapping PTL on everything, AND a smaller pool of options (particularly with EPT and crew) makes the choices more important. Read: I don't have a binder full of upgrades I never use because they aren't "viable".

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5 minutes ago, D00kies said:

@Kehl_Aecea Yeah, maybe it will feel better when we get back to where we were with the collection. On top of losing many of the influential pilot designs of 1.0 it just doesn't feel as dynamic at the moment.

It's now a game about flying ships, how is that less dynamic than just losing at the deck building stage?

And if you really want to look at it, there are more viable EPTs in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable torpedoes in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable missiles in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable turrets in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable ships in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.

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There's lots of interesting stuff still; arguably more-so than 1.0. It's just that it's now in the ship and pilot abilities instead of upgrades. As noted this was a very intentional design decision to curb a lot of the silliness and "combo-wing" that resulted in 1.0 and I think it's definitely the right choice.

Talents seem to be intentionally toned down since they can be applied to so many different ships to create self-contained endgame monsters which is not really a great design long term. Indeed stuff like Lone Wolf or really anything that isn't once per turn/game is problematic design as we say in 1.0, so most of that stuff has been effectively made once per turn for good reason.

And even with upgrade cards your question about "why can't they just be more expensive" is actually already somewhat covered. Look at some of the 10+ point crew for instance. A lot of those are easily as powerful or more than many of the 2-4 point upgrades in 1.0, they've just been given a much larger opportunity cost :)

Give it a chance: there's still just as much "dynamic" stuff going on in the game, particularly with various new dials and stuff like Supernatural and so on. It's just intentionally a bit less combo-wing with upgrade cards than it used to be. I think ultimately people will enjoy that now ships feel someone different to one another due to their ship abilities and linked actions, whereas in 1.0 almost everything just devolved into which upgrade cards you could put on something and any "ace with green turns" felt the same as any other really.

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19 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

It's now a game about flying ships, how is that less dynamic than just losing at the deck building stage?

And if you really want to look at it, there are more viable EPTs in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable torpedoes in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable missiles in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable turrets in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.  There are more viable ships in 2.0 than there are in 1.0.

That's probably a big part of the reason for that feeling.

A lot of 1st edition squad building was trying to figure out how to make powerful combos - 'broken' levels of power if you could find them - and so it made that deck-building aspect an interesting time sink.  Always tinkering, trying to find the next meta-defining list.

With 2.0...things are balanced too closely for that to really happen, which makes surprise discoveries in the list building process unlikely to impossible.  If the game really does reach the theoretical perfect level of balance that it could possibly do now...where you could bring any 200 pts to the table of anything and if it costs 200 pts, it'll be balanced against whatever your opponent brought for 200 pts...then list building would be completely dead as an engaging activity.  IMHO, they'll never get there - but that they can now get closer is definitely going to be reducing that level of 'fun' in the list building process.

It just doesn't matter as much as flying skill, now.

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35 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

It's now a game about flying ships, how is that less dynamic than just losing at the deck building stage?

Because list building is supposed to be part of the game.  If it wasn't they could have just done QBs for everything an been done with it.

11 minutes ago, xanderf said:

That's probably a big part of the reason for that feeling.

A lot of 1st edition squad building was trying to figure out how to make powerful combos - 'broken' levels of power if you could find them - and so it made that deck-building aspect an interesting time sink.  Always tinkering, trying to find the next meta-defining list.

With 2.0...things are balanced too closely for that to really happen, which makes surprise discoveries in the list building process unlikely to impossible.  If the game really does reach the theoretical perfect level of balance that it could possibly do now...where you could bring any 200 pts to the table of anything and if it costs 200 pts, it'll be balanced against whatever your opponent brought for 200 pts...then list building would be completely dead as an engaging activity.  IMHO, they'll never get there - but that they can now get closer is definitely going to be reducing that level of 'fun' in the list building process.

It just doesn't matter as much as flying skill, now.

Yeah, that's too bad.  Because, IMHO, you just killed half the game/fun.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Because list building is supposed to be part of the game.  If it wasn't they could have just done QBs for everything an been done with it.

Oh trust me there's still *plenty* of list building, especially right now when no one has any idea what is good. But changing points/slots is absolutely the shakeup that keeps list building fresh over time.

It's just you have to actually play to learn how to list build in 2.0 vs. just relying on memorizing which cards and combos were "good" in 1.0 and slapping the same old upgrades on the same ships over and over. I know which one of those two I consider more "dynamic" and which one I'm having more fun with in the past 6 months ;)

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You can balance 1st Ed upgrades, you can only price them to uselessness

2nd editition is vastly superior because a vast majority of upgrades depend on action or honest to God positioning, as opposed to "oh I got full mods all the time and can always shoot you so go **** yourself"

Plus there's tons of interesting new things, like Stygium array or Vader crew or Sloane or the aux arc coordinate lambda or barrage bombers or ruthless kestal or the vastly improved punisher or the implications of new seismic charges  or the awesome new Xwings (designed simultaneously with 1st Ed so they're still  new) or the new HWK or the dynamics of the new medium base or the scum Falcon or...

 

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18 minutes ago, xanderf said:

That's probably a big part of the reason for that feeling.

A lot of 1st edition squad building was trying to figure out how to make powerful combos - 'broken' levels of power if you could find them - and so it made that deck-building aspect an interesting time sink.  Always tinkering, trying to find the next meta-defining list.

With 2.0...things are balanced too closely for that to really happen, which makes surprise discoveries in the list building process unlikely to impossible.  If the game really does reach the theoretical perfect level of balance that it could possibly do now...where you could bring any 200 pts to the table of anything and if it costs 200 pts, it'll be balanced against whatever your opponent brought for 200 pts...then list building would be completely dead as an engaging activity.  IMHO, they'll never get there - but that they can now get closer is definitely going to be reducing that level of 'fun' in the list building process.

It just doesn't matter as much as flying skill, now.

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Because list building is supposed to be part of the game.  If it wasn't they could have just done QBs for everything an been done with it.

Yeah, that's too bad.  Because, IMHO, you just killed half the game/fun.

Just now, Do I need a Username said:

agreed, I miss tlt and expertise.

I wholeheartedly disagree. List building in 2.0 provides just about the same opportunities to find combos as 1.0. The chances that the combos you find will work and be competitive is actually hugely INCREASED over 1.0, due to the massive balance overhaul. What you guys are lamenting is the loss of the broken combo, the "i beat you in list building" element that took all the fun out of actually PLAYING the game.

For example, a Composure/Perceptive Co-Pilot/Han Solo (Gunner) combo means your ship ALWAYS has 2 focus tokens unless you're already stressed or you successfully boost/barrel-roll/target lock, EVEN if you bump. Slap that on Boba Fett (via Marauder title) for added rerolls and you've got a reliable attacker and defender.
Debris Gambit Ten Numb is another example of an interesting combo 2.0 lets you toss in. It's far simpler, but the red evade into stressed attack basically gives Ten another linked action.
Intimidation Captain Oicunn is better in this version too, since he can actually shoot at range 0.

The issue I see is the mindset of "gotta find the most broken combo to compete" needs to go away. The mindset needs to be "what cool combos can I find that I will have the most fun using?" I've had more fun throwing out the 70+ 2.0 squads that I've put together over the past few weeks than I had the entire last year trying to counter GhostFenn and Miranda's Toolbox lists. Overpowered, broken, negative-play-experience cards like TLT and Expertise need to be gone forever.

 

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@Darth Meanie That's what I enjoy too, dramatic lists. I like creating lists that work really well internally and figuring out how they can counter the meta plays. When they don't do so well I save them for new releases or a meta change that makes them shine. I enjoy building themes that are very different from the random 200pts worth of material to find out who's better at maneuvering.

It's part of the strategy for me to stack up a list against a field of known powerhouses. I was really happy to see Brobots come out and win Worlds 2018 too because those upgrades have been around for a long time but the list had fallen out of favor. Most people weren't using those cannons but the person had faith in control being better.

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35 minutes ago, punkUser said:

It's just you have to actually play to learn how to list build in 2.0 vs. just relying on memorizing which cards and combos were "good" in 1.0 and slapping the same old upgrades on the same ships over and over.

Yeah, that is going to become untrue over time.  Eventually, the netlists will come out, and everyone can start copying "best builds" again.

The main difference might be that if flying matters more, you're going to have to juice your own orange once you get it.

28 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

2nd editition is vastly superior because a vast majority of upgrades depend on action or honest to God positioning, as opposed to "oh I got full mods all the time and can always shoot you so go **** yourself"

Agreed.  Let's hope it stays that way.

22 minutes ago, Eruletho said:

The issue I see is the mindset of "gotta find the most broken combo to compete" needs to go away. The mindset needs to be "what cool combos can I find that I will have the most fun using?"

As long as this game focuses on prizes, I doubt you'll see that diminish.  But see above.

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2 hours ago, D00kies said:

Why do the majority of cards feel like weakened versions of the originals? Most of the re-released cards don't feel as dynamically interesting as their 1.0 versions. This is what I don't get: In addition to ship base changes why wasn't the introduction of versatile point values and upgrade slots enough for most of the game? Why redesign so many hallmark X-Wing TMG cards?
 

Maybe I'm getting use to the new stuff, but they don't feel as inspiring as the 1.0 collection. I find myself not as interested in the effects and generally thinking about the old ones. Some of the stuff is pretty cool but SO many in 1.0 had me staring at squad builders every week it doesn't feel as grand it feels more like a loss. This is just my initial impression of 2.0 and I hope it gets better with the full release of it.

So they can force you buy the powered-up versions in future expansions.

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Have actually played gunner han boba

Fun, but NOTHING compared to 1st Ed

1.) The stress is still incredibly debilitating

It's not neutering, like it would be without Marauder, but it REALLY forces your hand esp when coordinating with the rest of the squad

2.) No guaranteed evades nor ways to break them

Became a real crucial ******* issue against rexlar, where the game just devolved to running in circles because boba can't. Do. **** to a Defender 1v1 

 

Gunner Han is great, but he's perfectly in line with 2nd edition due to the stress (both that it stresses you AND you can't gunner Han while stressed)

 

 

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it feels watered down because they removed a ton of the overpowered gak that was creating superpowerhouse builds.

The game never should have gone down the route of "Roll 1 more die" or automatic die mods. More ways to move around, ways to get things cheaper (with an alternate cost perhaps such as a stress), and more things involving obstacles should have been the focus.

And 2.0 is leaning that way. The few self-powered deadly builds are hyper expensive, often being the only thing in the list thats even a threat barring lucky dice. Simultaneously, supportships actually FEEL LIKE THEYRE DOING THEIR JOB for once. Name me a 1.0 support that was used that wasnt Fenn, who was easily 10pts too cheap for what he did. I wouldnt even count the palpmobile as a proper support ship since it never passed tokens, helped maneuver, or hinder enemy ships it only modded 1 die and occasionally attacked.

The only thing in 2.0 that feels over the top imo is Thane purely because hes the only freaking Expose in the game that for some reason lets you CHOOSE THE CARD. All the other exposes are random and harder to do. His ability really, really bugs me as he can completely shut down so many ships if they happen to get a certain crit since he can guarantee (barring solid blank on attack) flip that card every time.

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For me 2.0 doesn’t have the same addictive mystique as 1.0. It is like comparing Final Fantasy Tactics to A1 & A2.

For me they have cut out half the fun of trying to get impossible combos to work. (And if they work too well expect them to get neutered in the future.) 

To me half the brain power should go into ‘prep time’ and reading the meta for your next list, and failing. Then working out the kinks.

I don’t want a “balanced” game. If I did I would play chess.

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I think some of the more potent cards and abilities also got a penalty or trade-off for using them, so that their use would be less automatic.  In 2.0, there's a little more real decision making between two mutually exclusive choices.

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The fundamentals of v1 are the same in v2. The difference right now is that the landscape of list building is vast and uncharted. That will change in 2 months, maybe less, as long as there is some centralized way for the netlisters to find the winning lists (RIP MJ) and then start spamming them to shape the meta. Relish the current state of the unknown and have some fun. The meta will be cast soon enough.

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Also, we're only using Wave 1 upgrades. There's gonna be more coming down the line (or did you think we'd only have the handful of force powers we have now for the life of the game?) Expect upgrades to be simplistic for a couple waves. I don't really see Interceptors being super usable until they get their release, for example. I'll be honest, it's pretty nice running X-Wings with only 2 to 3 upgrades tacked onto them!

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