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X-Wing TMG 2.0 Feels Watered Down

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List building is still engaging for me, it's just the approach has changed. In 1st edition it was all about finding the perfect combo of utterly broken gak to put onto as few ships as possible. In 2nd edition it seems to be more about balancing how many upgrades you're using versus your ship count. I actually find myself asking if I even want a Talent or Sensor any more, whereas the 1st edition approach was to always fill certain slots because the options were so overpowered. Things may change as more ships and upgrades are released but right now I absolutely love the fact what you do on the board actually matters now.

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15 hours ago, D00kies said:

@Kehl_Aecea Yeah, maybe it will feel better when we get back to where we were with the collection. On top of losing many of the influential pilot designs of 1.0 it just doesn't feel as dynamic at the moment.

Put the game on the table. It’s not a list building game any more. It’s a flying game and it is much much better for it. 

You might not be inspired by the upgrades and that you don’t want to open a list builder and build build build at work.

But the actual games, they will have you coming back and wanting to play more. That should be how it works. Building lists might be fun but it shouldn’t inspire us to play the game. Playing the game should do that. On that front 2.0 delivers. 

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List building is a lot more engaging for me right now, because the strong lists allow for counterplay unlike in 1.0. No more of 'this looks fun and works well together, but gets brutalized by Nymranda so why bother'. I need to have a plan for barrage bombers and may still be at a disadvantage, but I will always have a chance. That alone makes exploring options so much better!

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All I can think of is this:

https://imgur.com/B37Lbuo

2.0 is a bit watered down from 1.0, but that's entirely on the power creep in 1.0 and the card combinations that existed. 1.0 was getting closer to a deck game than an actual flying/maneuvering game, as there were too many combinations that required little in-game thought for execution. As a recent podcast stated, you could build a list that flew itself - and that's a bad feeling to have in a game theoretically based on tactical maneuver.

I much prefer list building in 2.0, especially right now while it is all fresh and we don't have a solid netlist baseline. It feels MUCH more open, even if a lot of those ships are naked.

Edited by dsul413

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It really is a question of moving from the less involved "stack high ps and obvious synergy upgrades" to something a little more interesting and complex

For example,

Mux Seri cleanup crew

(36) Torkil Mux
(10) Perceptive Copilot
(12) Moldy Crow
Points 58

(43) Serissu
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 48

(44) Cartel Executioner
(4) R5-P8
(1) Crack Shot
Points 49

(44) Cartel Executioner
(1) Crack Shot
Points 45

Total points: 200

The story behind the list is as follows:

The Kimoglia carry high risk but potent offensive upgrades

Mux ensures they kill SOMETHING before their high risk upgrades get them killed. He's also great late game. 

Seri lets them survive the approach by giving their 2 greens (at range 3) a reroll, also makes mux an undesirable target.

 

So yeah, little more going on than just "spam high ps poons or rebel bombs!'

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2.0 has even more shenanigans and crazy combos than 1.0 did, theyre just not focused on making 5die attacks autohit and strip defense tokens at the same time.

I have this problem in virtually every game i play where the bulk of the game is bogstandard stale point-and-shoot style units/characters. I love it when odd mechanics dictate how things work, and in a maneuver based game that should be the focus and right now it is.

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7 hours ago, Jike said:

List building is still engaging for me, it's just the approach has changed. In 1st edition it was all about finding the perfect combo of utterly broken gak to put onto as few ships as possible. In 2nd edition it seems to be more about balancing how many upgrades you're using versus your ship count. I actually find myself asking if I even want a Talent or Sensor any more, whereas the 1st edition approach was to always fill certain slots because the options were so overpowered. Things may change as more ships and upgrades are released but right now I absolutely love the fact what you do on the board actually matters now.

It seems to me as if many (not all) in 1.0 chose their powerful combos first, and then selected ships based on what could carry the combos.

In 2.0, it's more about choosing your ships first, and then choosing upgrades that supplement your strategy.

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

List building is a lot more engaging for me right now, because the strong lists allow for counterplay unlike in 1.0. No more of 'this looks fun and works well together, but gets brutalized by Nymranda so why bother'. I need to have a plan for barrage bombers and may still be at a disadvantage, but I will always have a chance. That alone makes exploring options so much better!

Yeah, I don't expect every list to be a champion-contender, but it's nice that my "just for fun" lists are less likely to be utterly decimated before they even has a chance to do anything.

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I view the metaphor like this; all the useless upgrades that were NEVER used just added content without depth or flavor, in other words...water.

2.0 right now feels distilled, like they boiled off a mass of steam and delivered a more concentrated flavorful version of the same game. How FFG manages adding content will determine if we return to a watered down version again.

To extend the food metaphor, I think FFG is aiming for a 'Food Court' style of management for X-Wing; solid number of themed factions with flavorful options for most tastes. As of right now however, X-Wing seems anything other than watered down.

 

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19 hours ago, SOTL said:

So they can force you buy the powered-up versions in future expansions.

I just found out that the "Conversion kits" don't even come with all the ship upgrades. Scum needs to buy the Rebel kit for the HWK's Moldy Crow title, Rebel needs to buy Scum for Maul from the Phantom II, etc.. Feels bad. 

These kits don't come with the upgrades that are converted to 2.0 from their respective ships. They're not complete, they require purchasing of all of the conversions to convert what came with the ships from one faction.

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While I don't believe everything is viable (since obviously you can build stupid things that don't do anything, or simply overload a ship with too many upgrades because they're actually vincible now) , you can do FAR more reasonable things

Like most four/five ship lists will have a reasonable chance of competing against anything.

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2 minutes ago, D00kies said:

I just found out that the "Conversion kits" don't even come with all the ship upgrades. Scum needs to buy the Rebel kit for the HWK's Moldy Crow title, Rebel needs to buy Scum for Maul from the Phantom II, etc.. Feels bad. 

These kits don't come with the upgrades that are converted to 2.0 from their respective ships. They're not complete, they require purchasing of all of the conversions to convert what came with the ships from one faction.

Well, the HWK and Phantom II aren't actually released, yet.  

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1 hour ago, D00kies said:

@JJ48 Yeah, you just purchase the conversion kit for the HWK and get stiffed on the Phantom II ?

Sounds like you are just looking for a reason to ***** about something. If you don't like the change don't buy into 2.0. Personally I am having a blast with it. I have played more X-wing in the last month than I did for a year before that. 

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I think I have been using Predator, Expertise, VI and PTL most of the time in XWing 1.0

But they were really powerful, which means you could get fully modified shots almost every round.

The restart feels good. Having just a focus or a TL seems to be a lot now.

And there is still room for upgrade cards to come.

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Can’t believe the amount of complaining about 2.0. 

It’s a miracle for me, I like the game to be about 25% list building and 75% flying, so it seems about right so far. 

The majority of stuff in 1.0 had become absolutely unbearable. 

Actually the thing I’m most worried about is how long it will take for people to find broken combinations of cards and spoil the fun again. 

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De-emphasizing the importance of upgrades and combos was one of the design objectives, so if that wasn't a thing you wanted them to do, then you're going to be disappointed.  But that was the idea, and all signs point to their intent to continue with this sort of balance going forward.  Whether they can do so successfully is an open question, but that seems to be what they're trying for.

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On 9/16/2018 at 3:11 AM, D00kies said:

Why do the majority of cards feel like weakened versions of the originals? Most of the re-released cards don't feel as dynamically interesting as their 1.0 versions. This is what I don't get: In addition to ship base changes why wasn't the introduction of versatile point values and upgrade slots enough for most of the game? Why redesign so many hallmark X-Wing TMG cards?
 

Maybe I'm getting use to the new stuff, but they don't feel as inspiring as the 1.0 collection. I find myself not as interested in the effects and generally thinking about the old ones. Some of the stuff is pretty cool but SO many in 1.0 had me staring at squad builders every week it doesn't feel as grand it feels more like a loss. This is just my initial impression of 2.0 and I hope it gets better with the full release of it.

You're looking at it from an 'average' player's perspective (not that I'm saying you're average). Cards like Predator are exactly as potent, provided a 2.0 player is skilled enough to trigger them just as frequently. The edition change has stopped the top tables from essentially being lucky average players to players that are capable of making the right tactical choices every turn.

So sure, you don't have Lone Wolf doubling the efficiency of Dash, but all of a sudden Soontir Fel has PTL built in, and with Predator is actually almost twice as effective as his 1.0 version in terms of offensive capability.

If you don't look at the 10 pilots and 10 upgrades that dominated the game in 1.0, you'll find that pretty much everything has received huge buffs to their base frame. Ships like Punishers are on the fringe of viable now. Quadjumpers look amazing and cheap. Swarms of virtually all cheap ships look promising. Aces (both force and non-force based) are unique and powerful. There's exactly one archetype that's received a nerf; the fat turret. No more passive mods outside the primary arc. No more range 3 kiting with secondary weapons that negate defensive bonuses. No more point fortressing/easily achievable regen to win a game specifically by not playing it.

So don't compare the top 1.0 100 point lists to the top 2.0 200 point lists and conclude that Ghost/Fenn is unbeatable. Instead look at the distribution of ships within each edition and realise that in 2.0 everything is ok or better, whereas in 1.0 a meagre 3-4 lists are passable in tournaments.

23 hours ago, Jadotch said:

I don’t want a “balanced” game. If I did I would play chess.

Coincidentally, chess isn't balanced at all. The white player has a rather enormous advantage in high level games, hence why the white player alternates through an even number of games in championship matches. Chess AI are considered to be far more advanced if they can win while playing as black.

Turn-based games are almost universally impossible to balance. The closest that can be achieved is a false comparison between a time advantage (first player) and a resource advantage (second, third etc player).

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5 minutes ago, Astech said:

The edition change has stopped the top tables from essentially being lucky average players to players that are capable of making the right tactical choices every turn.

First off, what top tables? This game started off just 4 days ago.

And secondly what are you talking about? In my country tournaments were dominated by the same people - those that were winning left, right and centre. Do you have any proof of what you are talking or just taking arguments out of thin air?
Despite the fact that yes, builds mattered in X-Wing and there were hard counters, good flying and good reading of your opponent could still get you far and provide victory.

Saying that X-Wing 1.0 was just all luck is ridiculous.

For example, I was the best player in my X-Wing local community and it stayed the same way - on Fridey I took 2nd place in our local LGS tourney, on Saturday I took 1st and won my first metal focus tokens, despite the fact that I couldn't take my "broken 1.0 list".

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6 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

First off, what top tables? This game started off just 4 days ago.

That's a predictive statement...

6 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

And secondly what are you talking about? In my country tournaments were dominated by the same people - those that were winning left, right and centre. Do you have any proof of what you are talking or just taking arguments out of thin air?
Despite the fact that yes, builds mattered in X-Wing and there were hard counters, good flying and good reading of your opponent could still get you far and provide victory.

Saying that X-Wing 1.0 was just all luck is ridiculous.

For example, I was the best player in my X-Wing local community and it stayed the same way - on Fridey I took 2nd place in our local LGS tourney, on Saturday I took 1st and won my first metal focus tokens, despite the fact that I couldn't take my "broken 1.0 list".

http://meta-wing.com/pilots?
http://meta-wing.com/upgrades?

That's about as convincing as I can be. The list is pretty shaken up, because wave 14 gave up any semblance of balance, what with the game being in its dying hour. Regardless, you're statistically far more likely to win tournaments flying a specific - and very narrow set - of ships than if you were to fly 90-95% of cards in the game (and 99.9% of combinations). Sure, you can get lucky flying a lower level list, or be significantly more skilful than your opponent and win through the odds, but then it's by definition matchup and dice dependent wins.

I never said X-wing was all luck. Just that a huge proportion of the game was luck-dependent. Mirror matches are routinely decided by initiative bid (especially in the days of palp aces). Final table outcomes were very commonly decided by matchup, and if they weren't dice played a huge role.

Crucially, all of the top lists from wave 4 onwards have relied on perfect information combined with a suite of adaptive options to bring victory. Absolutely no prediction skill required. Ace lists had relatively huge bids. Fat turrets were PS 10-11 or bust. Alpha strikes rapidly increased in PS. Swarms died because those that flew them had to engage in tactical thinking against an opponent who always had vastly more information.

So sure, some players dominated the competitive scene, but that's more due to the factors of location, wealth and willingness to play the meta than a true reflection of player skill. If you flew triple JM5Ks in 20 regionals across the country, you're probably going to win one. First of course, you have to be able to afford all that travel in terms of time and money. Then you have to actually have 20 regionals (Australia has... 4?) accessible to you. Then you just need to win 7-9 games in a single tournament which, statistically speaking, is incredibly likely. So no, those who won numerous tournaments almost universally aren't winning because of their skill. They won because they grind tournaments while flying definitively better equipment for the win.

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On 9/16/2018 at 8:34 AM, Jike said:

List building is still engaging for me, it's just the approach has changed. In 1st edition it was all about finding the perfect combo of utterly broken gak to put onto as few ships as possible. In 2nd edition it seems to be more about balancing how many upgrades you're using versus your ship count. I actually find myself asking if I even want a Talent or Sensor any more, whereas the 1st edition approach was to always fill certain slots because the options were so overpowered. Things may change as more ships and upgrades are released but right now I absolutely love the fact what you do on the board actually matters now.

Definitely agree. A Lot of the time in 1.0 it goes like EPT = Expertise or PTL and system slots it was like 3 points for FCS duhhh. But now its hmm 3 points for FCS is that worth it on X ship or could that be better spent in this type of list. Is this ship restricted with actions or  usually TL anyway or does he like boosting and link actioning to focus'? So there's a lot harding decisions to make.

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4 hours ago, Astech said:

You're looking at it from an 'average' player's perspective (not that I'm saying you're average). Cards like Predator are exactly as potent, provided a 2.0 player is skilled enough to trigger them just as frequently. The edition change has stopped the top tables from essentially being lucky average players to players that are capable of making the right tactical choices every turn.

So sure, you don't have Lone Wolf doubling the efficiency of Dash, but all of a sudden Soontir Fel has PTL built in, and with Predator is actually almost twice as effective as his 1.0 version in terms of offensive capability.

If you don't look at the 10 pilots and 10 upgrades that dominated the game in 1.0, you'll find that pretty much everything has received huge buffs to their base frame. Ships like Punishers are on the fringe of viable now. Quadjumpers look amazing and cheap. Swarms of virtually all cheap ships look promising. Aces (both force and non-force based) are unique and powerful. There's exactly one archetype that's received a nerf; the fat turret. No more passive mods outside the primary arc. No more range 3 kiting with secondary weapons that negate defensive bonuses. No more point fortressing/easily achievable regen to win a game specifically by not playing it.

So don't compare the top 1.0 100 point lists to the top 2.0 200 point lists and conclude that Ghost/Fenn is unbeatable. Instead look at the distribution of ships within each edition and realise that in 2.0 everything is ok or better, whereas in 1.0 a meagre 3-4 lists are passable in tournaments.

Coincidentally, chess isn't balanced at all. The white player has a rather enormous advantage in high level games, hence why the white player alternates through an even number of games in championship matches. Chess AI are considered to be far more advanced if they can win while playing as black.

Turn-based games are almost universally impossible to balance. The closest that can be achieved is a false comparison between a time advantage (first player) and a resource advantage (second, third etc player).

Predator is not nearly as good now, 1 re- roll for forward bullseyearc only. No double re-roll or usable by fat turrets to always have mod.

Lone wolf is now once per turn instead of 1-7 times that it used to be. 

Sure sontir can "ptl" into a boost or barrel, but he can't get 2 focus + old extra block evade token while having autothruster safety. He can get alot by awesome flying sure, but not event close to his most powerful 1.0 time.

Edited by jocke01

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32 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

Sure sontir can "ptl" into a boost or barrel, but he can't get 2 focus + old extra block evade token while having autothruster safety. He can get alot by awesome flying sure, but not event close to his most powerful 1.0 time.

In other words: you have to actually use skill to keep soontir alive, you can't just rely on upgrades.

He's actually MORE powerful than in 1e in the hands of a skilled player; he will be getting shot just as much (i.e. 0, functionally, because in 1e he'd be out of arc and therefore safe (except that he doesn't have PS advantage in 1e), but he will get an offensive reroll he couldn't get in 1e.

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30 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

Predator is not nearly as good now, 1 re- roll for forward bullseyearc only. No double re-roll or usable by fat turrets to always have mod.

Lone wolf is now once per turn instead of 1-7 times that it used to be. 

Sure sontir can "ptl" into a boost or barrel, but he can't get 2 focus + old extra block evade token while having autothruster safety. He can get alot by awesome flying sure, but not event close to his most powerful 1.0 time.

Predator's the price now of Crack Shot in 1.0, and CS was considered a good EPT. In terms of absolute power yes, classic Predator is better, but relative to the cost - and assuming you're a good enough player to get 3 bullseyes in a game with a high-PS ace like Soontir, new Predator is definitely better.

Lone Wolf is definitively worse, no dout about it. But it was by far the strongest individual card in 1.0, so that's to be expected.

The old (and only ever good) Soontir Fel with PTL, SD and Autos was 35 points. 39 if you include half the cost of the inevitable Palp backup. For this you got a single-modded 3-die attack on a PS 9 frame with a meagre 3 hull. Not only was Soontir absolutely wrecked by all of the wave 8+ meta, he was so innefectual at doing damage that you might as well have taken a huge bid instead of him.

Contrast this to the new Predator Fel (no mods) for just 54 [27] squad points. Double reposition inherent ability, a synergistic and relatively easy to achieve pilot ability and EPT, a PS that's as high as it will (presumably) ever go, and a presence in a meta where all bombs are dropped before movement, and mines are severely nerfed. This new Soontir is in a meta for which he's perfectly suited, and he's there to stay for at least waves 1-2. Of course, now he requires actual skill to fly, rather than the ridiculous token stacks of 1.0.

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