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rickert

choosing to fight as a use

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Can you choose to use a creature, choose fight as your option even though there is no creature to attack? I know that no fight will happen. I know that no fight effects will trigger. It seems by the rules that you can.

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59 minutes ago, rickert said:

Can you choose to use a creature, choose fight as your option even though there is no creature to attack? I know that no fight will happen. I know that no fight effects will trigger. It seems by the rules that you can.

From the rulebook:

"Using Creatures

FIGHT

Any ready creature of the active house may fight.  When a creature is used to fight, is controller chooses one eligible creature controlled by the opponent..............

...........A creature cannot fight if there is no enemy creature that can be chosen as the target of the attack."

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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Rick is suggesting that choosing a creature to fight and having a creature fight are two completely different things.  This question is now spanning three message boards.  I've quoted every rule that applies every way I can think of, but Rick is convinced he's right, so an official ruling is probably the only thing that will dissuade him on this, though if someone else wants to try don't let me stop you.

Rick, this in no way is intended to be insulting or dismissive of you.  You've decided something is true, and I admire your tenacity if nothing else.  Hopefully someone here will do a better job than I did...

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5 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

For what purpose?  I mean he's completely wrong, but even if he's correct what is there to be gained by being able to say "I choose this creature to fight, nothing happens"?

dodger1.png?w=370&h=

He's hoping to use triggered abilities.

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16 hours ago, Xelto said:

dodger1.png?w=370&h=

He's hoping to use triggered abilities.

No I am not. The rules allow you to pick something you can't do when you unstun. The rules only say you can't fight not that the action can't be chosen. There is a card that says "ready and fight with a friendly creature." The way you guys read it, you could play that card and then reap with it if fighting wasn't possible due to opponent not having any creatures but the creature was from the named house. Using my interpretation it wouldn't work that way because that creature will still have to exhaust and choose to fight. By the way, I know if there is no fight then no abilities are triggered.

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14 hours ago, dperello said:

No, he wants to unstun a creature by causing it to fight when there is no enemy creature to fight, I think.  It's all becoming a bit confused.

That's a narrow and misleading way to represent an argument that you know is more involved than that. I believe that you can unstun by choosing to do anything a creature can normally do when he is ready. It doesn't matter if they choose to fight when there are no creatures because the fight isn't going to happen. So that also should be true when unstunning isn't a goal, for consistency sake if nothing else.

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1 hour ago, rickert said:

That's a narrow and misleading way to represent an argument that you know is more involved than that.

You mean like posting this as a general rules question and not about a specific card that appears as if it could contradict the rules?

This rule is right there in black and white and is not worded in a way that could be misinterpreted (unlike some of the other rules.)

If the issue is with a specific card then post the card and scenario in question from the start.  If you can't get a clear answer then send the question to  FFG.

Posting it the way you did isn't helping anyone. 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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4 hours ago, rickert said:

That's a narrow and misleading way to represent an argument that you know is more involved than that. I believe that you can unstun by choosing to do anything a creature can normally do when he is ready. It doesn't matter if they choose to fight when there are no creatures because the fight isn't going to happen. So that also should be true when unstunning isn't a goal, for consistency sake if nothing else.

It wasn't my intent to be misleading, I am genuinely confused by your confusion.

I agree that you can unstun a creature by choosing anything it can normally do when it is ready, but you seem incapable of understanding that a creature cannot be used to fight if there is no enemy creature to fight with, despite the line directly in the rules that states, "A creature cannot fight if there is no enemy creature that can be chosen as the target of the attack."  If you could understand that one rule it would resolve any problems you seem to be having here.

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The problem is there are reasons to suspect that "a creature fights" is used ambiguously in the rules text.

It may sometimes mean "used, where the action chosen is fight"

It may sometimes mean "begins to engage in combat"

It may sometimes mean "completes an entire combat"

IF the sequence to complete an entire fight action is:

1. Choose a creature
2. Use it
3. Choose the fight action
4. Choose a target of the fight action
5. Begin the fight (here stuff like Assault might trigger)
6. Complete the fight (here is where damage is applied from creature power)
7. Kill things

and if the process can be halted at any one of these steps, (as it seems clear it can for at least some of the steps, for example between 3 and 4 for the stun removal), then I can see logical space for the possibility that you could do step 3 (steps 1 through three encapsulating "choose a creature to fight") then, if there's some interrupt that happens after step three, _not_ go on to step four (the part referred to when it's stated that to fight you choose a creature.)

In other words, there's choosing a creature to fight with, and then there's choosing a creature to fight against, and I believe Rick is suggesting these are two different substeps in the overall fight process, and that it may be possible to interrupt between those two substeps of the fight process.

I haven't followed closely his argument for that but it seems, while a bit arcane, not crazy at all, and not at all an unexpected possibility when it comes to games like this (esp. ones designed originally by the designer of Magic...)

 

 

Edited by SingularThey

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My thoughts on this subject is more in the line of: Does a creature exhaust before announcing it's action, or after?

If it is before, then the issue with 'You may ready and attack with a creature' just goes away.

If it is after, we really need this confirmed.

So, it is all about sequence of play.

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On 9/16/2018 at 7:53 PM, SingularThey said:

IF the sequence to complete an entire fight action is:

1. Choose a creature
2. Use it
3. Choose the fight action
4. Choose a target of the fight action
5. Begin the fight (here stuff like Assault might trigger)
6. Complete the fight (here is where damage is applied from creature power)
7. Kill things

and if the process can be halted at any one of these steps,

As far as I can tell, steps 1-4 happen at the same time. "My troll attacks your niffle ape" is just that. You choose which creature you're using, which one you're targeting, and the fact that you're fighting all together.  You exhaust your attacking creature as you do this. You can't do it if your opponent doesn't have a creature you're capable of attacking.

Quote

No I am not. The rules allow you to pick something you can't do when you unstun. The rules only say you can't fight not that the action can't be chosen. There is a card that says "ready and fight with a friendly creature." The way you guys read it, you could play that card and then reap with it if fighting wasn't possible due to opponent

As far as I can tell, there are only two things in this game that have prerequisites. Playing an upgrade card requires a creature to play it on. Choosing the fight action requires a creature you can fight with and a creature you can fight against.

I didn't find any other things in the rules that have requirements like that. Playing an action card doesn't have any prerequisite. You simply play it, gain any Æmber, and do whatever you can off the card.

 

 

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This was originally posted on the Facebook group by Damon Stone, one of the credited playtesters for the game.

"For those looking for the answers to the questions brought up here, I just asked Brad, here is what he said,

1. Anger readies the creature. When you go to fight you cannot do so, so you do not exhaust. That creature could be then be used to reap or ac
tivate its action ability if it belongs to the named house.

2. You exhaust as a cost but can only pay costs for actions that can be initiated (if none of the action can resolve at all you cannot take it).

He said there are some intricacies involving both of these, so we should expect further clarification in the living documents."

I posted this over on BGG as well...

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