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zymurgy65

Question regarding Force skills

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Is a Force-using character allowed to use his initial 7D to improve any Force skills, or just the ones on his template? I let our Failed Jedi allocate 2D to Alter, but I'm not sure if that was correct.

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You have to have at least 1D already on the template (or take 1D from attributes and use it to get the first D) before you can use skill dice to raise it. In this system, Force-users that start the game with Force skills are generally less competent and well rounded than non-Force-users.

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1 hour ago, zymurgy65 said:

Is a Force-using character allowed to use his initial 7D to improve any Force skills, or just the ones on his template? I let our Failed Jedi allocate 2D to Alter, but I'm not sure if that was correct.

That would be incorrect.

For a  starting PC, they need to assign one of their starting attribute dice to each of the various Force skills on a one-per-one basis.  So for the Failed Jedi to start with 1D in both Control and Sense, they had to give up 2 of their starting attribute dice.

Once the template has 1D in a Force skill, then you can assign skill dice to increase it.

So in the instance of your group's Failed Jedi, they couldn't assign any dice to Alter because they didn't start with Alter 1D on their template.

Now, as the GM, you could allow the player to either swap Control or Sense for Alter, or remove 1D from their attributes to get Alter 1D, at which point the player would be free to spend their starting skill dice to boost up Alter.

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Yeah, since starting Force Skills use attribute dice, not skill dice, it gets confusing because of the terminology.

As stated above, notice that a character's 18 D starting dice is spread about the six attributes AND the three Force skills.  The Failed Jedi, for example, starts with only 16D in attributes (as opposed to 18D with the non-Force using templates) and 2D in Force skills (1D in Alter, 1D in Sense).

For clarity, the Force Skills should have probably been called Force Attributes, or something other than Force Skills, to eliminate the confusion with regular skills.

Also note that there is no "Force Sensitivity" in 1E.  That's a 2E concept.

Under the core 1E book rules, learning a Force Skill (putting 1D into one of the three Force Skills) gives the character access to all powers controlled by that Force Skill.  For example, the Minor Jedi template allows that character to start the game with Control 1D.  This means that the character can use...

Control Pain

Remain Conscious

Hibernation Trance

Accelerate Healing

Contort/Escape

Detoxify Poison

Control Disease

Absorb/Dissipate Energy.

 

Later on, the approach is taken that a character learns a some Force Powers under a Force Skill, but not all.  Some powers must be researched and practiced to be learned.

 

 

To answer the question in the OP:  Think of Force Skills as attributes.  These cannot be improved upon on the templates, just like STR cannot be changed on a template.  After the character is in play, the Force Training rules can be used.  See page 69.

The Force is a powerful ally.  Force wielding characters are quite powerful in this game.  They are meant to start fairly weak and grow in power as the character progresses through the campaign.

I suggest reading Chapter Six a couple of times to fully digest the rules concerning the Force.

 

 

 

NEW TEMPLATES

Note that the templates at the back of the book are not the only templates allowed in the game.  The GM can create new templates, if he needs them for his game.  If the GM wants to have a second Failed Jedi template that has Alter 2D, then the GM certainly can do that (but don't use skill points--the original dice put into Force Skills on templates are taken from total attribute dice).

See Chapter Seven for notes on creating new templates.

Edited by player3412539

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6 hours ago, zymurgy65 said:

OK, thanks for the feedback. I'll let the player know so she can revise her character.

Or, allow the character to start with 2D Alter as a one time thing, but the character has to reduce one of his attributes by 1D so that his Force Skills and Attributes add up to 18D.

That should put it in better prospective for the player.

 

You could use something like this....

Custom Failed Jedi

DEX 2D

KNOW 3D 

MECH 2D

PER 3D

STR 2D

TECH 2D

 

CONTROL 1D

SENSE 1D

ALTER 2D

 

This guy would definitely have a leg up on the Force, but it's not unbalanced.  When customizing templates this way, remember that Humans cannot have attributes lower than 2D or higher than 4D.  Increasing this character Force Skills this way makes him more normal (more like an NPC) in other areas.  It will take more skill points to get him on par with the other non-Force using characters.

 

Then, add some style to the character:  He's an older character who remembers vividly the Old Republic before the Dark Times.  For decades now, he's kept his ability with the Force secret, and those skills have atrophied.  He's not the formidable Jedi Knight that he used to be.  Powers unused.  Powers forgotten.

He's maybe a bit crazy, or he seems that way to others.  He struggles with his connection with the Force, but he doesn't advertise that.

He's quiet, except when he's talking to himself.  And, his lightsaber will sometimes short out, randomly*.  He doesn't have the tools to repair it.

 

*We made him more powerful in the Force than any other template in the 1E core book, so I thought it fair that we put a fun quirk on his main piece of equipment.  The GM can devise a roll that, any time the lightsaber is used, there is a chance that it will short out and stay powered down for a time.

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2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

A starting score of Alter 2D should cost one Attribute die and one Skill die. It should not cost two Attribute dice.

That's not how I read page 70.  

Let's discuss...am I wrong in this interpretation?

Page 70 says...

Quote

Four of the character templates are printed with Force skills--The Alien Student of the Force, the Failed Jedi, the Minor Jedi, and the Quixotic Jedi.  Their starting skill codes are all 1D; these characters may spend dice from their initial allotment to start with higher codes.

This suffers from using the term "skill" for the Force Skills.  Since it takes attribute dice for those 1D Force skills already on those templates, I read that taking from "their initial allotment" means taking from the character's initial allotment of 18 D attribute dice.

If regular skills dice are used during character generation, then some fairly powerful Jedi could be created, straight out of character generation.  Going by the character generation rules, 2D could be placed in each Force Skill.  Making Control 3D, Sense 3D, and Alter 3D would be possible.

I don't think that's what the rules intend.

But, I'm open to argument if you think my interpretation of them is incorrect.

 

 

Tales of the Jedi

To back up my interpretation of the rules above, I cite the Tales of the Jedi companion.  Now, this is a 2E product, but the templates follow the same rules as far as Force Skills are considered.

The Miraluka template has Control 3D, but only 15D are used for attributes.  The same goes for any template in that book that starts a character with Force Skills:  1D of Force Skill = 1D from attribute dice.

The same holds true in the templates provided in Heroes & Rogues.

Given this, I'm certain that I am correct in my interpretation of the rules.

Edited by player3412539

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8 minutes ago, player3412539 said:

That's not how I read page 70.  

Let's discuss...am I wrong in this interpretation?

Page 70 says...

 

 

This suffers from using the term "skill" for the Force Skills.  Since it takes attribute dice for those 1D Force skills already on those templates, I read that taking from "their initial allotment" means taking from the character's initial allotment of 18 D attribute dice.

If regular skills dice are used during character generation, then some fairly powerful Jedi could be created, straight out of character generation.  Going by the character generation rules, 2D could be placed in each Force Skill.  Making Control 3D, Sense 3D, and Alter 3D would be possible.

I don't think that's what the rules intend.

But, I'm open to argument if you think my interpretation of them is incorrect.

I don't have the 1e rules handy (but hold tight, I'm downloading the original, non-FFG pdf now), but from 2eR&E (p.28):

If a character has any of the Force skills--control, sense, or alter (they'll be listed under special abilities)--you may improve them, but you cannot add these skills to the template if they're not already listed.

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1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

I don't have the 1e rules handy (but hold tight, I'm downloading the original, non-FFG pdf now), but from 2eR&E (p.28):

If a character has any of the Force skills--control, sense, or alter (they'll be listed under special abilities)--you may improve them, but you cannot add these skills to the template if they're not already listed.

But, we're not talking about adding them to the template.  We're talking about creating a new template.

And, I believe the examples I provided above support my interpretation of the rules.

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4 minutes ago, player3412539 said:

But, we're not talking about adding them to the template.  We're talking about creating a new template.

And, I believe the examples I provided above support my interpretation of the rules.

You don't can't build a Template with more than 1D in a Force skill*. Then, when you get to the Pick Skills point of spending your 7D of skills in character creation, you can add up to 2D more to any skills already on the Template.

This is clearly spelled out in 2eR&E on page 32 under the Force Skills section of building new templates.

Edited by HappyDaze

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21 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

You don't build a Template with more than 1D in a Force skill. Then, when you get to the Pick Skills point of spending your 7D of skills in character creation, you can add up to 2D more to any skills already on the Template.

If that were true, then the template for the Miraluka, which begins with Control 3D, is not possible.

Also, every template in the game shows a character with Force Skills to have paid for them with attribute dice.  For example...

Miraluka, from Tales of the Jedi, has Control 3D and 15D in attributes.

The Mystic has Control 2D, Sense 1D, and 15D in attributes.

The human Beastmaster has Sense 3D and 15D in attributes. 

This is a lot of evidence that I am correct in my interpretation of the rules, not to mention the quote I provided above from page 70 of the 1E core rules (under the paragraph section Starting Characters With Force Skills).

 

 

 

1D Force Skills

I think its safe to say that, most of the time, Force Skills should be at 1D on templates.  GMs should probably have good reasons for creating a template that includes Force Skills that are higher than 1D.

 

 

Edited by player3412539

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28 minutes ago, player3412539 said:

If that were true, then the template for the Miraluka, which begins with Control 3D, is not possible.

Also, every template in the game shows a character with Force Skills to have paid for them with attribute dice.  For example...

Miraluka, from Tales of the Jedi, has Control 3D and 15D in attributes.

The Mystic has Control 2D, Sense 1D, and 15D in attributes.

The human Beastmaster has Sense 3D and 15D in attributes. 

This is a lot of evidence that I am correct in my interpretation of the rules, not to mention the quote I provided above from page 70 of the 1E core rules (under the paragraph section Starting Characters With Force Skills).

 

 

 

1D Force Skills

I think its safe to say that, most of the time, Force Skills should be at 1D on templates.  GMs should probably have good reasons for creating a template that includes Force Skills that are higher than 1D.

 

 

Well, page 8 of the 1e SW rules (download completed) says you're wrong. If you have the first 1D in the Force skill from your template, then you can add skill dice from your 7D to it at character creation. It's plain as day.

Page 81 talks about new templates and that Force skills can only start at 1D on the template (before skill dice are spent) and that this 1D (per Force skill taken) is from Attributes.

Edited by HappyDaze

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OK, I found the rule....

PAGE 81, 1E CORE RULEBOOK

under "Making Up Templates".

Each Force Skill costs 1D from the allocation of 18D attribute dice.  Normally, the 18D is only spent on attributes; Force Skills are an exception.  A character who knows all three Force Skills only has 15D to allocate among his attributes; a character who knows one only as 17D, etc.  All Force Skills start with codes of 1D."

Obviously, an exception was made for the templates in the Tales of the Jedi Companion; as I've shown above, that book shows templates with Force Skills as high as 3D.

But, I also noticed this:  No template is shown with more than 3D in Force Skills.  So, if a template is created, like the Miraluka, that starts with Control 3D, then the template does not show any other Force Skills.  If a template has Control 2D and Sense 1D, then it does not also have an Alter skills.

 

The choice for new templates with Force Skills seems to be this....

1D in one or two Force Skills.

1D in each of the three Force Skills.

2D in one Force Skill, and 1D in another Force Skill.

3D in one Force Skill only. 

Each 1D spent in Force Skills removes from the 18D used for the character's attributes.  A 3D maximum in Force Skills means 15D are left for attributes on the template.

 

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Just now, player3412539 said:

OK, I found the rule....

PAGE 81, 1E CORE RULEBOOK

under "Making Up Templates".

 

 

Obviously, an exception was made for the templates in the Tales of the Jedi Companion; as I've shown above, that book shows templates with Force Skills as high as 3D.

But, I also noticed this:  No template is shown with more than 3D in Force Skills.  So, if a template is created, like the Miraluka, that starts with Control 3D, then the template does not show any other Force Skills.  If a template has Control 2D and Sense 1D, then it does not also have an Alter skills.

 

The choice for new templates with Force Skills seems to be this....

1D in one or two Force Skills.

1D in each of the three Force Skills.

2D in one Force Skill, and 1D in another Force Skill.

3D in one Force Skill only. 

Each 1D spent in Force Skills removes from the 18D used for the character's attributes.  A 3D maximum in Force Skills means 15D are left for attributes on the template.

 

Just because later products broke the rules doesn't mean that the other rules don't apply. By RAW, the legal options are:

  • 18D of Attributes*
  • 17D of Attributes* plus 1D in one Force skill
  • 16D of Attributes* plus 1D in each of two Force skills
  • 15D of Attributes* plus 1D in each of all three Force skills

In any of the latter three cases, up to 2 skill dice from the starting 7D can be spent on Force skills that are already at 1D from the template.

* Note that some species might have more or less than 18D, but this was more of a 2e and beyond thing.

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8 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Well, page 8 of the 1e SW rules (download completed) says you're wrong. If you have the first 1D in the Force skill from your template, then you can add skill dice from your 7D to it at character creation. It's plain as day.

That's a good catch.

It seems that I am correct about creating templates but not correct about starting a new character.  Page 8 of the 1E Core Rules says...

If you have a Force Skill on your template, you can allocate from your 7D to increase your skill code.

 

 

This means, to the OP:  You can use starting skill point to increase Control or Sense on the Failed Jedi template, but if you want to include Alter, you'll have to follow the rules to create a new template.

Your new template can have up to 3D in Force Skills, 1D per Force Skill.   That's per the 1E Core Rulebook.

Alternatively, if you accept the Tales of the Jedi method (which seems very logical to me), you can create a template with Force Skills higher than 1D as long as you don't spend more than 3D total (as I described above).

 

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4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

* Note that some species might have more or less than 18D, but this was more of a 2e and beyond thing.

This is in the Tales of the Jedi Companion, too.  There's a template for a Nazzar Beastmaster.  Has 3D Sense, just like the human Beastmater template, but has 16D in attributes due to the Nazzar race.

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Just now, player3412539 said:

This is in the Tales of the Jedi Companion, too.  There's a template for a Nazzar Beastmaster.  Has 3D Sense, just like the human Beastmater template, but has 16D in attributes due to the Nazzar race.

Tales of the Jedi Companion was 1996. Like I said, 2e and beyond.

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7 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

In any of the latter three cases, up to 2 skill dice from the starting 7D can be spent on Force skills that are already at 1D from the template.

We're agreed on that now, but that doesn't answer the OP, as Alter is not a Force Skill that can be improved on the Failed Jedi template.

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Just now, HappyDaze said:

Tales of the Jedi Companion was 1996. Like I said, 2e and beyond.

Yes, I mentioned it was 2E above.  But, it's the main source for templates with Force Skills outside of the 1E Core Rulebook.

And, the rule they use for higher level Force Skills is not a stretch; 3D max allocated to one Force Skill, or 2D/1D to two Force Skills, or 1D to one or more single Force Skills.

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Just now, player3412539 said:

We're agreed on that now, but that doesn't answer the OP, as Alter is not a Force Skill that can be improved on the Failed Jedi template.

So he creates a new template by taking everything as seen on the Failed Jedi except that he either takes !D from an Attribute and places it into Alter 1D or he drops another Force skill and takes Alter 1D. To get the second D of Alter, he spends one of his 7D of skill picks.

Of course, I already said all this way before you tried to argue with me.

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What this means is that the Alien Student of the Force template can be used to create a powerhouse.

It would take 6D of the 7D in skill dice, but the character could start the game with...

Control 3D

Sense 3D

Alter 3D

And know every Force Power in the 1E core rulebook.

He wouldn't have much in the way of skills, but he'd be one powerful starting Force wielder regardless.

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Strictly for discussion purposes, I wonder why the writers of the core rulebook made the Alien Student of the Force a powerhouse and not the Failed Jedi.

Maybe because, at the time this was written, there were not supposed to be any Jedi left, except those we saw in the films, and some strange, unknown alien type would be more believable?

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14 hours ago, player3412539 said:

Strictly for discussion purposes, I wonder why the writers of the core rulebook made the Alien Student of the Force a powerhouse and not the Failed Jedi.

Maybe because, at the time this was written, there were not supposed to be any Jedi left, except those we saw in the films, and some strange, unknown alien type would be more believable?

Simple.  The Failed Jedi gets to start play with a lightsaber, which under 1e rules could be a very potent weapon once you start boosting Control and Sense, given the effects of what would become the infamous lightsaber combat power in 2e was a default ability all Force users got when using a lightsaber.

OTOH, the Alien Student doesn't have that sort of thing, and given that under WEG rules using the Force to attack was an automatic dark side point, that they can be a Force powerhouse isn't quite as big of a deal, especially since this is the iteration of the rules where not only could the character be taken away if they went dark side, but going dark side could very well happen after earning your second dark side point if you had an unlucky dice roll.

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On 9/15/2018 at 12:25 PM, HappyDaze said:

A starting score of Alter 2D should cost one Attribute die and one Skill die. It should not cost two Attribute dice.

That's my understanding as well.

 

21 hours ago, player3412539 said:

Strictly for discussion purposes, I wonder why the writers of the core rulebook made the Alien Student of the Force a powerhouse and not the Failed Jedi.

Maybe because, at the time this was written, there were not supposed to be any Jedi left, except those we saw in the films, and some strange, unknown alien type would be more believable?

The ASotF is not failed. The Failed Jedi made it through most of their training... but wasn't up to the full training. Still, after adding a die from skills to each, the failed jedi is competent enough at start, OR he's weak in the force, but almost competent elsewhere.

The ASotF is either useless as a jedi (1d in all  is pretty incapable), or has very poor non-force competency (15d in attributes, instead of 18, and 4d in skills instead of 7d).

Also note: Jedi Knight was later specified to be either 6d or 7d in all three force skills - well beyond any starting character. And one cannot raise attributes in play, so the ASotF is permanently crippled outside the Force.

Meanwhile, if you're patient, Quixotic Jedi is the way to go...17D in attributes. Spend the 7D on skills at start, then raise Sense over time. 

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