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dperello

Rules question about Neutron Shark

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This came up in one of my games today at the UK early preview, and if the Neutron Shark is destroyed to destroy an enemy creature, then the discard the top card of your deck part of the card ability does not happen, so the effect ends then.  

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So as soon as it destroys itself and goes to the discard pile its effect end.  Makes sense.

There is now a slight problem with the wording of cards like Mighty Javelin which read: Omni: Sacrifice Mighty Javelin. Deal 4[D] to a creature.

Under Sacrifice, the Glossary says: When a player is instructed to sacrifice a card, that player must discard that card from play.

So to keep the timing consistent,  Mighty Javelin would never deal 4 damage because it is already in the discard pile.

I know how it is intended to work, so personally there's no problem, but there doesn't seem to be the consistency one would hope for in a game with this many different possibilities. 

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I doubt that the effect ends after Neuron Shark destroys itself (play or reap action / or fight if he survived the fight) because the entire effect happens simultaneously. For the effect to end after Neuron Shark destroyed itself it should be written like "Destroy an enemy creature or artifact and a friendly creature or actifact, THEN discard the top card ... 

Edited by Tillke

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I know Keyforge is not Magic however in Magic any effect would go onto to something called the stack. The removal

of the card that began the effect does not remove the effect from the stack and such an effect must play out entirely.

 

Neutron Shark effect;

Play/Fight/Reap: Destroy an enemy creature or artifact and a friendly creature or artifact. Discard the top card of your deck. If that card is not a Logos card, trigger this effect again.

 

In Keyforge an effect has to fully be possible or the whole effect fizzles and ends. All  that is needed is an artifact or creature on both sides for it to continue. This means even if the Neutron  Shark is gone its effect is going to continue. It will continue to trigger the discard effect up to the rule of six.

This also means Shark cannot Play/Fight/Reap if the opponent does not have a creature or artifact. It just sits and waits. 

I will have to search through the rules about such effects but almost certainly any seasoned Magic player would interpret it this way.

A card and its effects are two different things. 

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Tillke- that was the ruling made by the UK Organised Play team at the weekends early preview tournament, so until the inevitable rule clarification/FAQ document lands that’s how ill play it.   We got the judge ruling on it as I read it similar to you, but judge advised that the whole process stopped when the shark was destroyed.

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"THE RULE OF SIX Occasionally, a situation may emerge in which, through a combination of abilities, the same card may be played or used repeatedly during the same turn. A player cannot play and/or use the same card and/or other copies of that card (by title) more than six times during a given turn."

 

From the rule book, so that can mean that the shark can only trigger 6x times at most if it does not cause a Logos card to be discarded off the draw pile. Once it starts it only stops after the 6th trigger unless it cancels during its stated end trigger. That is how I would interpret it. An effect and a card are separate, but the intent is clear in the rules that there is no infinite combos in this game as a rule.

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That would actually mean that cards like Mighty Javalin would never do anything as dperello pointed out. Doesn‘t make any sense to me. Respect to the judges but they are only humans as well and can make a mistake. The game just came out and there is so much to look out for.

Edited by Tillke

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Here's my 2 cents, they are several alternative wordings to make all this clear.

As Tillke pointed out, the word "then" can clarify the think, because it's still in the same sentence and all the effects have to be applied. 

An other alternative would be as in Arkham Horror LCG (and probably many other) : the conditions are before the colone.

So for the mighty javelin, it could be written

"Omni : discard Mighty Javelin, then deal 4[D] to a creature"

or

"Omni, discard Mighty Javelin : deal 4[D] to a creature". 

For Neutron Shark, in any case, I do not read it as the effect that would end if the shark is destroyed... I agree with UtopianDreams. The effect, if applicable, is applied entirely. So for me, the shark could be the first creature sacrificed, one can continue its effect as long the tow boards have creatures (and one does not top deck logos). This is probably why even Mighty Javelin has no divergent interpretation and the wording is OK.

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On 10/21/2018 at 5:52 PM, UtopianDreams said:

I know Keyforge is not Magic however in Magic any effect would go onto to something called the stack. The removal

of the card that began the effect does not remove the effect from the stack and such an effect must play out entirely.

 

Neutron Shark effect;

Play/Fight/Reap: Destroy an enemy creature or artifact and a friendly creature or artifact. Discard the top card of your deck. If that card is not a Logos card, trigger this effect again.

 

In Keyforge an effect has to fully be possible or the whole effect fizzles and ends. All  that is needed is an artifact or creature on both sides for it to continue. This means even if the Neutron  Shark is gone its effect is going to continue. It will continue to trigger the discard effect up to the rule of six.

This also means Shark cannot Play/Fight/Reap if the opponent does not have a creature or artifact. It just sits and waits. 

I will have to search through the rules about such effects but almost certainly any seasoned Magic player would interpret it this way.

A card and its effects are two different things. 

This isnt mtg . Also in keyforge you do as much of the effecy as you can  . The fizzle rule you have just invented ....

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On 11/24/2018 at 10:58 AM, Newinvader said:

Also in keyforge you do as much of the effecy as you can  . The fizzle rule you have just invented ....

This.  Exactly this. 

I don't know why people feel the need to state the utterly 100% wrong rule without saying "I think this is the way it is but I am not sure."  People will read his post and play the game 100% wrong until they meet someone who knows wtf they are talking about.

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Fight abilities merely state that the creature must survive to trigger their ability. For reap it activates when it reaps. That aside the only card abilities that say they cease to work when the card leaves play are constant abilities, neutron shark nor mighty javelin are constant abilities. Thus if neutron shark dies you do as much of the ability as you can then proceed to trigger it again if those consistions are met on the repeat effect. There is no rule anywhere that says otherwise as long as you are discarding a non-logos card off the top of your deck. Technically the only things that would stop it are discarding a logos card or running out of cards (as only drawing shuffles the discard pile back into the deck).

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3 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

Fight abilities merely state that the creature must survive to trigger their ability. For reap it activates when it reaps. That aside the only card abilities that say they cease to work when the card leaves play are constant abilities, neutron shark nor mighty javelin are constant abilities. Thus if neutron shark dies you do as much of the ability as you can then proceed to trigger it again if those consistions are met on the repeat effect. There is no rule anywhere that says otherwise as long as you are discarding a non-logos card off the top of your deck. Technically the only things that would stop it are discarding a logos card or running out of cards (as only drawing shuffles the discard pile back into the deck).

"ABILITY, CARD ABILITY

An ability is the special game text a card contributes to the game. Unless an ability explicitly references an out-of-play area (such as a hand, deck, archives, or discard pile), that ability can only interact with cards that are in play."

The interpretation supporting neutron shark ending, is that unless specified, cards cannot interact with cards that are out of play. Once neutron shark is in the discard pile, there is no longer an effect which may be triggered. Under this interpretation, after neutron shark is destroyed, you would still draw another card from the top of your deck. But the effect which would trigger again is no longer in play, so you stop.

It is not clear which interpretation is correct, although it has been ruled in the past by organizers that even the draw doesn't happen. Cards that sacrifice themselves first and then do more things clearly make that a bizarre ruling. But no more bizarre than the dead shark continuing to eat things.

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This (and possible similar effects) have been clarified by the updated rulebook

REPEAT
If card text instructs players to repeat an effect, the entirety of the effect 
resolves again including the text to repeat the effect. If the card that 
is creating a repeating effect is removed from play, the effect can no 
longer repeat.
Note: Repeating an effect does not interact with the Rule of Six (see 
page 7,) as the Rule of Six only applies to playing or using cards, not 
triggering their effect multiple times.
See also “Preceding.”

 

So yes the effect can happen more then six times and does not repeat anymore after Neuron Shark is removed from play.

Edited by DrPeterEnis
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6 minutes ago, DrPeterEnis said:

This (and possible similar effects) have been clarified by the updated rulebook

REPEAT
If card text instructs players to repeat an effect, the entirety of the effect 
resolves again including the text to repeat the effect. If the card that 
is creating a repeating effect is removed from play, the effect can no 
longer repeat.
Note: Repeating an effect does not interact with the Rule of Six (see 
page 7,) as the Rule of Six only applies to playing or using cards, not 
triggering their effect multiple times.
See also “Preceding.”

 

So yes the effect can happen more then six times and does not repeat anymore after Neuron Shark is removed from play.

There is some question over whether "trigger" is the same as a repeating effect - but this is the only card that can leave play during something that looks like a repeating effect.

I still think that you discard the top of the deck, even if the effect cannot repeat.

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1 hour ago, saluk64007 said:

"ABILITY, CARD ABILITY

An ability is the special game text a card contributes to the game. Unless an ability explicitly references an out-of-play area (such as a hand, deck, archives, or discard pile), that ability can only interact with cards that are in play."

The interpretation supporting neutron shark ending, is that unless specified, cards cannot interact with cards that are out of play. Once neutron shark is in the discard pile, there is no longer an effect which may be triggered. Under this interpretation, after neutron shark is destroyed, you would still draw another card from the top of your deck. But the effect which would trigger again is no longer in play, so you stop.

It is not clear which interpretation is correct, although it has been ruled in the past by organizers that even the draw doesn't happen. Cards that sacrifice themselves first and then do more things clearly make that a bizarre ruling. But no more bizarre than the dead shark continuing to eat things.

The effect isn’t interacting with an out of play card, it’s interacting only with creatures it’s destroying and/or the top card of your deck it’s discarding (which it says to do).

 

It looks like it wouldn’t repeat though as an above poster clarified with the rules quote for repeat.

Edited by TwitchyBait

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2 minutes ago, TwitchyBait said:

The effect isn’t interacting with an out of play card, it’s interacting only with creatures it’s destroying and/or the top card of your deck it’s discarding (which it says to do).

The part that interacts with neutron shark is the part that says "trigger this effect again". The card containing the effect is in the discard. You can't trigger it. One way to read it anyway.

But we can go with the 'repeating effect" clause, as that seems the best fit.

Edited by saluk64007

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2 hours ago, Talamare said:

If you choose Neutron Shark to kill itself

Discard the top card of your deck, and end

No more repeats

Curious why you think this given it was ruled differently at an official event.  Quite a few rulings came out of that particular event, not all of them appealing to me, but until we hear otherwise this is the best information we have to go on.

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48 minutes ago, dperello said:

Curious why you think this given it was ruled differently at an official event.  Quite a few rulings came out of that particular event, not all of them appealing to me, but until we hear otherwise this is the best information we have to go on.

When you activate a card that starts with "Sacrifice name." then has some effect, do you rule that because the card has been removed from play that the text following it should not take place?

The game is young, misrulings will happen. They may also make what were once misrulings into official rulings with official FAQ additions.

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1 hour ago, Talamare said:

When you activate a card that starts with "Sacrifice name." then has some effect, do you rule that because the card has been removed from play that the text following it should not take place?

The game is young, misrulings will happen. They may also make what were once misrulings into official rulings with official FAQ additions.

Okay, did you read the thread?  Sacrifice cards and their now awkward language were already discussed.  I'm not sure what you feel bluntly stating things we know to be incorrect is helping, but I guess if those are the types of contributions you want to make please continue. :)

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12 hours ago, saluk64007 said:

There is some question over whether "trigger" is the same as a repeating effect - but this is the only card that can leave play during something that looks like a repeating effect.

 

At least in the FAQ for Bait and Switch "triggering" an ability is used synonymously with "repeating" an ability. (Since Bait and Switch says "repeat" and not "trigger" so i'd say yes.

Quote

My opponent has 14 Æmber in their pool and I have 0 in mine. At
the start of my turn I select Shadows as the active house and play
the card Bait and Switch (CoTA 267). How many times does Bait
and Switch trigger?
In this situation, Bait and Switch’s effect will be triggered 7 times. Each
time the effect is triggered it will check if your opponent still has more
Æmber than you, and if they do it will trigger again. So after the first
time the effect triggers you will have 1 Æmber and your opponent will
have 13, the second time you will have 2 Æmber and your opponent
will have 12, then 3 and 11, 4 and 10, 5 and 9, 6 and 8, then finally 7 and
7. Once both players have the same amount of Æmber when the effect
checks if your opponent has more Æmber than you the effect will see
that your opponent does not and the card effect will not trigger again.
Note: Repeating an effect does not interact with the Rule of Six (see
page 7), as the Rule of Six only applies to playing or using cards, not
triggering their effect multiple times.

 

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15 hours ago, TwitchyBait said:

Fight abilities merely state that the creature must survive to trigger their ability. For reap it activates when it reaps. That aside the only card abilities that say they cease to work when the card leaves play are constant abilities, neutron shark nor mighty javelin are constant abilities. Thus if neutron shark dies you do as much of the ability as you can then proceed to trigger it again if those consistions are met on the repeat effect. There is no rule anywhere that says otherwise as long as you are discarding a non-logos card off the top of your deck. Technically the only things that would stop it are discarding a logos card or running out of cards (as only drawing shuffles the discard pile back into the deck).

Does the Rule of Six apply to this card? I know there is one where it doesn't an forget which one you said it was.

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