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I've been running into this same problem for a month now, but I built a rebel list that eats bombers and tie swarms for breakfast, so it's a nonissue. I'll share it with the community once I get my first kit tournie win. I'll give you a hint though: It does not have a single X-Wing in it anywhere.

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Might be able to dance around bomb formation (note not arc dodge, just manuever around obstacless and don't get in 3 arcs)

Basically anything with boost has a fair shot, even xwings (gotta learn how to servos, they MAKE the ship) plus anything that can move forward really fast (ailerons,cloak, SLAM)

So you should be trying out

Xwings

Sabine shuttle

Moldy Crow (especially Palob)

Bobas 

Vipers

Fangs

Strikers

Reapers (jam! Also great blocker)

Punishers

Phantoms 

Sorta Gunboats (really need to find a good build)

 

Bombers also don't get Iden so they HATE torps 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Yeah, that doesn't work very well.  That was what I had in mind would be how you beat them,until I had to play against them and saw them in action.  Unless their pilot is asleep at the wheel and makes a ton of mistakes this doesn't work at all.

I concur. When I was trying to beat them with X-Wings (which are super bad in comparison btw) they basically had 90% of the board locked down by virtue of spreading out and slow rolling. Just think about why exactly the bombers are beating you and bring something that they cannot do that to. 

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5 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

I concur. When I was trying to beat them with X-Wings (which are super bad in comparison btw) they basically had 90% of the board locked down by virtue of spreading out and slow rolling. Just think about why exactly the bombers are beating you and bring something that they cannot do that to. 

I feel like 4X would have a real game.  If they spread out a lot so the bombers would only have arc on one the converge turn may see an X-wing dead, but a Bomber should be ready and the remaining 3X would be in a pretty solid pursuit position. 

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4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I feel like 4X would have a real game.  If they spread out a lot so the bombers would only have arc on one the converge turn may see an X-wing dead, but a Bomber should be ready and the remaining 3X would be in a pretty solid pursuit position. 

Agreed.  I think a lot of this is just people jousting into lists that are much better at jousting and complaining that things are OP. 

Don't joust a Howlrunner/Jonus formation unless your list jousts better (spoiler: it doesn't).  Yes, dicking around the rocks for three turns then flying straight into them is still jousting.

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1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

I feel like 4X would have a real game.  If they spread out a lot so the bombers would only have arc on one the converge turn may see an X-wing dead, but a Bomber should be ready and the remaining 3X would be in a pretty solid pursuit position. 

The problem is that the X-Wings melt too quick to justify their cost. And let it be known that it's not just any specific bomber list that you have to watch out for, but also all of the variants of them too (Jendon, Jonus, 2 bomber 2 punisher, etc.) I think if you are going to fly four rebel ships with the goal of beating bombers, 4 Ys with Proton Torpedoes is an infinitely better value. You aren't going to be able to dodge their arcs because they spread out in a net, therefore you are jousting them, and your green dice are going to blank out because green dice, so you may as well just roll less and take the two extra health. Seriously, you can fit all named pilots, all with proton torps and still have points left over. You don't need to out PS jonus, only the IV 2s, so as long as all of your Ys are above that, you're golden. Dutch slaughters bombers. If you want to beat them, he had better be in your list.

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Put it simply, in a game where double mod attacks are rare and valuable, you can get them en masse on multiple cheap and reasonably sturdy ships by bringing Jonus and 2-3 bombers. There's nothing I can think of that could joust that and win. This wouldn't even be that much of an issue since, as some folks pointed out, TIE bombers aren't exactly unpredictable in their maneuvers and they do need to focus to use their rockets. The problem with that plan is that in 2.0 TIE Bombers are actually true to their name and great at bombing stuff. You can flank them, sure, but it won't last for more than a turn and then you're behind them which is just not a good place to be. I see that people are using proton bombs to scare away the potential pursuers. Personally, I prefer proximity mines with skilled bombardier. They're 3 points more expensive and technically cover a smaller area but they're also more destructive and they effectively create a no-go zone within range 0-2 in the rear arc of the bomber. If you end your move anywhere in that area or even if you're slightly out of it but pointing towards it, you're gonna eat a mine at the start of the next round, which means that exploiting the bombers' low PS and basic dial becomes very difficult to do.

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4 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The problem is that the X-Wings melt too quick to justify their cost. And let it be known that it's not just any specific bomber list that you have to watch out for, but also all of the variants of them too (Jendon, Jonus, 2 bomber 2 punisher, etc.) I think if you are going to fly four rebel ships with the goal of beating bombers, 4 Ys with Proton Torpedoes is an infinitely better value. You aren't going to be able to dodge their arcs because they spread out in a net, therefore you are jousting them, and your green dice are going to blank out because green dice, so you may as well just roll less and take the two extra health. Seriously, you can fit all named pilots, all with proton torps and still have points left over. You don't need to out PS jonus, only the IV 2s, so as long as all of your Ys are above that, you're golden. Dutch slaughters bombers. If you want to beat them, he had better be in your list.

A bomber formation spreading out is almost always better for the opposing squad.  It makes their arcs harder to dodge in total, but it makes it much easier to dodge or just soak a few attacks instead of all of them.

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5 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The problem is that the X-Wings melt too quick to justify their cost. And let it be known that it's not just any specific bomber list that you have to watch out for, but also all of the variants of them too (Jendon, Jonus, 2 bomber 2 punisher, etc.) I think if you are going to fly four rebel ships with the goal of beating bombers, 4 Ys with Proton Torpedoes is an infinitely better value. You aren't going to be able to dodge their arcs because they spread out in a net, therefore you are jousting them, and your green dice are going to blank out because green dice, so you may as well just roll less and take the two extra health. Seriously, you can fit all named pilots, all with proton torps and still have points left over. You don't need to out PS jonus, only the IV 2s, so as long as all of your Ys are above that, you're golden. Dutch slaughters bombers. If you want to beat them, he had better be in your list.

If they spread out in a net then they don't get to use Jonus, which is what makes them efficient.  They're still good without Jonus, but they're just throwing three dice with a focus requirement at that point.

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1 hour ago, RebelProfundity said:

This is exactly what I took away from it as well. "Extended" format is something to play at side tables or themed events. "X-Wing 2.0" lists only include items found in the Core Set or 2.0 expansions. It also does a lot to explain the balancing decisions for the "Extended" format.  Not brave enough to call it yet, but I am pretty sure at this point that the top competitive formats will only allow Core Set and 2.0 expansions, nothing that appears only in the Conversion Kits.

Selling $50 conversion kits to the hardcore players and then banning the majority of their contents from high level competitive play would be a pretty great scam. 

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Let's look at some Rule of 11 to see how bad the worst case jousting scenario is for the 4X squad.  We'll assume the X-wings move after the bombers.

X-wings start in tight formation across from Bombers.  They go 4 straight.  Bombers go 1 straight.  X-wings boost.   That's 9 out of 11 for Rule of 11, no Bomber shots.  X-wings are a bit out of Range 3, about 9 base lengths away.  Now it's a coin toss.  Bombers can't stop X-wings from gaining Range 1 on the next turn (4 straight on X + 1 straight on Bombers = 8 base lengths), so the Bombers have to move up and try and block to get the best of the situation, but the X's can counterplay, it all comes down on which side the dial selection falls on.  Not ideal, but this is the worst case scenario for Xs, a straight up joust with a Bomber swarm.  Even so, if the X's do land at R1, they can exchange primaries with the bombers, which definitely favors the X-wings.  Did I miss something? 

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Honestly, I think the tie bomber is a few points undercosted by itself. For only 4 points over the Obsidian Squadron Pilot, a Scimitar Squadorn Pilot gains a substantial durability boost with a comparable dial (1-turns vs. 1-banks and blue 1-forward) as well as a handy linked action. I'm curious how Howlrunner+Iden+4 Scimitars stacks up against the 7 Tie Swarm.

Just now, Tvboy said:

Selling $50 conversion kits to the hardcore players and then banning the majority of their contents from high level competitive play would be a pretty great scam. 

The 2.0 only format is probably a wave 1 thing. I mean, they could stick the First Order with only one ship in wave 2 tourneys, but that seems absurd even for FFG.

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1 hour ago, SOTL said:

That's not a serious list.

It was when I beat that J&B list last week with them( I call it J&B for Jendon and Barrages, you could reverse the lettering but...)

 

It was pretty hilarious. I even jousted and didn't lose a ship in the alpha. My opponent was more experienced but we both had over two years into the game. My red dice were solid but I rolled a notorious amount of 1 die evades. His reds were average, his greens terrible as he had spent his focuses on several of the offenses. One scum Falcon soaked up all their menace and still had two hull left. Took one Bomber off the board in the retaliation. Then blocked them into their own bombs, which put one near half, made it easy to finish him off the third round. They couldn't get out. Two failed their 5 K turns and stayed in place stressed. one 3 turned inside and got blocked on a rock. It was just a massive logjam of 4 large bases that they couldn't get past.

 

So yeah, four falcons think those 3 dice barrages are kinda cute. In the hands of a better player they'd probably do even better.

 

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11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Let's look at some Rule of 11 to see how bad the worst case jousting scenario is for the 4X squad.  We'll assume the X-wings move after the bombers.

X-wings start in tight formation across from Bombers.  They go 4 straight.  Bombers go 1 straight.  X-wings boost.   That's 9 out of 11 for Rule of 11, no Bomber shots.  X-wings are a bit out of Range 3, about 9 base lengths away.  Now it's a coin toss.  Bombers can't stop X-wings from gaining Range 1 on the next turn (4 straight on X + 1 straight on Bombers = 8 base lengths), so the Bombers have to move up and try and block to get the best of the situation, but the X's can counterplay, it all comes down on which side the dial selection falls on.  Not ideal, but this is the worst case scenario for Xs, a straight up joust with a Bomber swarm.  Even so, if the X's do land at R1, they can exchange primaries with the bombers, which definitely favors the X-wings.  Did I miss something? 

You did miss a few things actually:

1. Blindly going 4 straight into boost is suicidal if bombers go 4 straight themselves, so X-wings won't ever do it.

2. After the intial joust Xwings will struggle to avoid the inevitable fireworks left behind by the bombers.

3. While all-bomber lists do happen, many folks bring something else too. For example, I like bringing along a TrajSim Punisher with proton bombs and seismic charges just in case someone gets any ideas about swarming my bombers.

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27 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

Selling $50 conversion kits to the hardcore players and then banning the majority of their contents from high level competitive play would be a pretty great scam. 

Won't happen. They don't want empty chairs and the social media fallout from the hardcore community that would eat them alive on such tactics. The diehards would burn it all to the ground.

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I am really confused, why are the TIE/B suddenly a thing?  The bomber and unguided mussels have been around.  You can still only fit 4 in a squad, maybe squeeze Howl in there if the bombs are stripped.  

 

This combo didn’t work in roUnd 1, why is it working so well in rd 2?

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27 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

You did miss a few things actually:

1. Blindly going 4 straight into boost is suicidal if bombers go 4 straight themselves, so X-wings won't ever do it.

Its not the least bit suicidal.  Let me help ya with the math:

4 straight +1 base length (the x-wing) = 5

4 straight +1 base length (the TIE bomber) = 5

5 + 5 = 10

According to the rule of 11, the total of both ship maneuvers (and their bases) must equal 11 in order for ships to get shots.  

10 does not equal 11...

And keep in mind the x-wings have a good chance of choosing initiative because they are more likely to have a bid (they won't take it if they're smart).  So they will know what move the Bombers did when it comes time to decide whether to keep the wings open or closed (and whether they need to boost or not).

Edited by blade_mercurial

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14 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

I am really confused, why are the TIE/B suddenly a thing?  The bomber and unguided mussels have been around.  You can still only fit 4 in a squad, maybe squeeze Howl in there if the bombs are stripped.  

 

This combo didn’t work in roUnd 1, why is it working so well in rd 2?

A few things happened, actually.

The TIE bomber itself got a nice reduction in points.  Scimitar in 2.0 = 28 points (that's like 14 in 1.0 terms).  And the dial is MUCH improved.

Barrage Rockets are technically WORSE than unguided rockets (because they are slightly more expensive relatively speaking and only range 2-3 instead of 1-3), but compared to other missile options available in 2.0, barrage rockets are REALLY good.  In fact, I'd go so far to say that they are slightly under-costed (by how much, its hard to say in these early days, but perhaps 1 or 2 points).

So basically, you are able to field 5 TIE bombers comfortably in 200 points and STILL have points left over to put bombs on ALL of them.  If they costed even a couple points more each, then it would be much more difficult to build such an EFFICIENT JOUSTING SQUAD.

And that's the rub.  Jonus +4 barrage rocket bombers is currently the MOST EFFICIENT JOUSTING SQUAD IN 2.0.  

So as people above have mentioned, if you joust them you will almost certainly lose (unless you get an incredibly favourable dice skew).  You basically need to out-fly them to have a good chance of winning.  Assuming two players of roughly equal skill sit down to play a game of x-wing though---the player with the bombers certainly has an edge...

Edited by blade_mercurial

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