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Flanks

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Just played a demo game. Had a question about playing cards to the flanks. The rules state, "Any time a creature enters play or changes control, the active player chooses which flank of its controller’s battleline it is placed on." What if you have no prior cards currently on the battleline? Is the single card occupying both flanks? None? It matters for some card text.

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That is how I read it. However, my local store manager played a demo with FFG reps, and he was under the impression that you needed at least two cards to flank. Would love to see official clarification because it mattered in the demo we played at the store.

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If you need official certification of what you think is right, you can always send off to FFG support for one. Sometimes, that's the only way to get people to believe you.

But... here is part of the rulebook:

Quote

Each time a creature enters play, it must be placed on a flank—at the far left or the far right of its controller’s battleline.

So, if you have no creatures in play, when you play one, it must be placed on a flank. It is, therefore, a flanking creature. 

Quote

The creatures on the far right and far left of a player’s battleline are on the flanks of the line.

And until you play another creature, it's on both the left and the right flanks.

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Flank literally means on the side.  You need at least two creatures in play to have a flanking creature. 

The rule is worded that way to prevent you from placing a creature in between other creatures that are already on the board.

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37 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Flank literally means on the side.  

That's the dictionary definition. The rulebook says:

Quote

The creatures on the far right and far left of a player’s battleline are on the flanks of the line.

That doesn't say anything about needing more than one creature to be in that battle line.

However, this is obviously one of those things that's obviously going to need an official ruling before it gets settled, so I've sent a query off to FFG. I'll let everyone know when I get a response.

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I get where you're going. I would just argue that with only one creature I play it's neither on the right nor the left.

I've seen plenty more confusing rulings across a bunch of different games so I wouldn't be shocked if FFG rules it in a way that is logically flawed.

Thanks for following up on this.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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Nowhere does it say that in the rules.  I mean if it were so clear you'd think that it would actually say that instead of leaving it open to interpretation.  Which is what everyone is doing, including me.

I simply think it's more logical for there to have to be creatures (plural, like in the rules) in play for flanks to be established.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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Creatures have to enter play on a flank, so a single creature has to be on a flank, otherwise it cannot enter play.  Would it being on the left or right ever matter?  Are there cards that only affect cards on a specific flank?  If not then it doesn't matter and you might as well consider it on both flanks.

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There are cards that matter in terms of creatures being on flanks, in general.  I haven't seen one about a specific flank, but, I remember seeing something to the effect of "Destroy all creatures not on a flank."  So the distinction is important.  Again I contest that the rule is worded that way only to remind us that creatures cannot enter play in between other creatures. 

If the intent were to consider a single creature on the board to be on both flanks, then there should be a simple sentence that states:  "If you only control one creature on your battleline, it is considered to be on both flanks"

It doesn't state that, just like it doesn't give us a definition of "refill" making the rules on shedding chains overly complicated.  There are also misspellings throughout the rules pdf.   For example, in the definition of Flank,  Battleline is spelled "Battleine"  I mean I assume the word is misspelled and the intent is that it should be the battleline but that's not what it says. 

I have yet to see an online game or in person demo where one creature in play was considered to be on a flank.  Maybe they all got it wrong, and if an official rules clarification confirms that a single creature in play is considered to be on both flanks then I'll accept the decision, no matter how little sense it actually makes.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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Did some one raise the issue with the rules guru's at FFG?

For myself I believe that a single creature on your battle line is both the left flank and the right flank.

If you have soldiers in a line like say Roman Soldiers, if you were to hit them in the flank they would have to turn to the attack and in general suffer for it. Why would it matter if you had 1 unit that unit still has two flanks.

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14 minutes ago, Amanal said:

Did some one raise the issue with the rules guru's at FFG?

For myself I believe that a single creature on your battle line is both the left flank and the right flank.

If you have soldiers in a line like say Roman Soldiers, if you were to hit them in the flank they would have to turn to the attack and in general suffer for it. Why would it matter if you had 1 unit that unit still has two flanks.

Xelto sent a query to FFG.

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14 minutes ago, Xelto said:

I'm not expecting an answer until Monday at the earliest.

No hurry.  Until I have actual cards in my hand, it doesn't matter that much.  I appreciate you following up on this.  Besides that just means I can delay my shame of being wrong and you getting to say you told me so, or "nah nah nah nah"  whatever it is you prefer to do when you're vindicated.

I like to go with "in yo face with a can of mace"  :P

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

There are cards that matter in terms of creatures being on flanks, in general.  I haven't seen one about a specific flank, but, I remember seeing something to the effect of "Destroy all creatures not on a flank."  So the distinction is important.  Again I contest that the rule is worded that way only to remind us that creatures cannot enter play in between other creatures. 

If the intent were to consider a single creature on the board to be on both flanks, then there should be a simple sentence that states:  "If you only control one creature on your battleline, it is considered to be on both flanks"

It doesn't state that, just like it doesn't give us a definition of "refill" making the rules on shedding chains overly complicated.  There are also misspellings throughout the rules pdf.   For example, in the definition of Flank,  Battleline is spelled "Battleine"  I mean I assume the word is misspelled and the intent is that it should be the battleline but that's not what it says. 

I have yet to see an online game or in person demo where one creature in play was considered to be on a flank.  Maybe they all got it wrong, and if an official rules clarification confirms that a single creature in play is considered to be on both flanks then I'll accept the decision, no matter how little sense it actually makes.

 

So the rules do specifically say that all creatures must enter on either the right or left flank.  If the only way to enter the battleline is on a flank, then it would definitely be on at least one flank.  My point was if it doesn't matter which flank it is on, why even contemplate which flank it is on.  A creature enters the battleline on a flank.  There is no differentiation made between the first or Nth creature, so according to the rules as currently written even the first creature must be on a flank.  It is not until a third creature shows up that there is any possibility for a creature to not be on a flank.

Is a single creature on a flank?

Yup, it has to be, it can't come into play any other way.

Does it matter which flank it is on?

No, nothing targets specifically either the right or left flank, just flank and non flank creatures.

Then why even contemplate which flank it is on or whether it is on both?  Gameplay wise it makes no difference.

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44 minutes ago, dperello said:

So the rules do specifically say that all creatures must enter on either the right or left flank.  If the only way to enter the battleline is on a flank, then it would definitely be on at least one flank.  My point was if it doesn't matter which flank it is on, why even contemplate which flank it is on.  A creature enters the battleline on a flank.  There is no differentiation made between the first or Nth creature, so according to the rules as currently written even the first creature must be on a flank.  It is not until a third creature shows up that there is any possibility for a creature to not be on a flank.

Is a single creature on a flank?

Yup, it has to be, it can't come into play any other way.

Does it matter which flank it is on?

No, nothing targets specifically either the right or left flank, just flank and non flank creatures.

Then why even contemplate which flank it is on or whether it is on both?  Gameplay wise it makes no difference.

I'm not arguing that which flank is important.  Again, I'm saying that the rule is worded that way because it's a reminder that you cannot play creatures in between other creatures on the board, and a single creature is not on a flank as it is neither on the far right or left.  In order for something to be considered on the left or the right it must be "of, relating to, or located on or near the side of."   

Without an example or rule for when there is one creature in play, it's open to interpretation and mine is different.  I'll gladly accept the ruling either way, because I really don't care.  I just want it to be clear so when I teach it to others it makes sense.  I don't think it's as clear cut based on the wording of the rules. 

(Un)forturnately, not sure, I have been playing card games for 25 years and have seen a ton of different rules interactions that influence my interpretations.

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5 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

...a single creature is not on a flank as it is neither on the far right or left.  In order for something to be considered on the left or the right it must be "of, relating to, or located on or near the side of." 

It is actually on both the far right and far left at the same time.  If I'm standing on a plank of wood I can place one foot on the far left of the plank and one foot on the far right of the plank, essentially being in two places at once.  And for my next trick I'll make a quarter come out of your nose...

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17 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I'm not arguing that which flank is important.  Again, I'm saying that the rule is worded that way because it's a reminder that you cannot play creatures in between other creatures on the board, and a single creature is not on a flank as it is neither on the far right or left.  In order for something to be considered on the left or the right it must be "of, relating to, or located on or near the side of."   

Without an example or rule for when there is one creature in play, it's open to interpretation and mine is different.  I'll gladly accept the ruling either way, because I really don't care.  I just want it to be clear so when I teach it to others it makes sense.  I don't think it's as clear cut based on the wording of the rules. 

(Un)forturnately, not sure, I have been playing card games for 25 years and have seen a ton of different rules interactions that influence my interpretations.

I just don't understand why you would suppose a single creature is not on a flank when the rules state that a) Each time a creature enters play, it must be placed on a flank and b) The creatures on the far right and far left of a player’s battleline are on the flanks of the line. It all but literally states that a single creature is on a flank (both even, but that hasn't mattered so far). Why deny this is so? Can you explain your reasoning behind this?

 

Going to rule a) Each time a creature enters play, it must be placed on a flank. You seem to agree this rule is for placement of creatures. So what do you see happen here? A creature enters play on a flank, but as soon as it's in in play (and the only creature) it stops being on a flank? I don't see anything in the rules to back this train of thought.

As to rule b) The creatures on the far right and far left of a player’s battleline are on the flanks of the line. Is a single creature not part of the battleline in your reasoning? Because if it is it just says there quite literally that on the right and left side is on the flanks. And a single creature is both on the far right and far left of the battleline.

I genuinely can't see the issue here :S

 

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Again I've already stated my stance on this.

The beginning of the section of creature just talks about how creatures are placed into the battleline.  Then the rulebook shows a more developed board with three creatures.  Having dealt with FFG games in the past they have put out rulebooks that are not the most current or have errors.  For example, "battleine" being misspelled.

My contention is that that while the wording could very well lead someone to conclude a single creature is on one or even both flanks it does not actually state that.  When a rule contradicts the literal meaning of a word it becomes open to interpretation unless it is clearly defined.

I believe that it's reminder text to illustrate that creatures cannot be placed in the middle of other creatures that are already on the board and was not worded/templated properly in the rulebook.  Every online game and in person demo I have seen has interpreted the rule the same way.  Therefore I feel a clarification is needed and glady await the answer from FFG that explains the rule clearly.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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