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Coyote Walks

The Pinnacle of Power

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45 minutes ago, Tomello said:

I don't know, being at 6 or less honor is not a safe place.

You do realize KB still works if you have more than 6 honor right?  You still get to straighten a guy, they just don't get the +1/+1.

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24 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

I believe you got that wrong.... but it’s Scorpion, so anything may work handily. ?

KB is better with a bid 1 (aka: dishonor) strategy since the core box may as well be blank 95% of the time, so might as well take a box that does something.

Core is better with a high bid (aka: military) strategy because it lets you get some of your honor back and lets you spend time at <6 honor (for the other cards that care about that) without being in as much fear of accidental death.

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27 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

You do realize KB still works if you have more than 6 honor right?  You still get to straighten a guy, they just don't get the +1/+1.

I do.  Though, with the cards that only work with 6 or under and the cards that only work with a higher bid....it will be hard to play at that range.  The stronghold still works, but a lot of options are off the table.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I think some of this stuff will work amazingly.  I think that it is a high risk style of play.

Edited by Tomello
Added context

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On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:33 PM, shineyorkboy said:

......Especially since Enforcer doesn't do anything once he's on the field.

A 4/4 character that sits around for 4 turns without having to do anything, is already "doing something."

It's already saving you up to 3 fate at the cost of 2 honor (because you are stealing 1 back after you play it)

It's got a 4 stat in both military and political so it can break  a good number of the provinces out there which puts the pressure on your opponent because they have to expend cards dealing with a blank stat-stick. 

It doesn't have to have any sort of conflict ability to make it a great card.  Is it broken?  No.  It's just a straight up great value card.  Vanilla with some toppings.............in a  waffle cone.  Crap, now I'm hungry.

 

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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16 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

A 4/4 character that sits around for 4 turns without having to do anything, is already "doing something."

It's already saving you up to 3 fate at the cost of 2 honor (because you are stealing 1 back after you play it)

It's got a 4 stat in both military and political so it can break  a good number of the provinces out there which puts the pressure on your opponent because they have to expend cards dealing with a blank stat-stick. 

Okay, so you're spending 5 Fate to give your opponent an honor advantage and trigger your Stronghold which, unless it's turn 1, you were probably going to get off anyway.

And even if you don't hit Feast or Famine or get Way of the Crab'd you're still going to get chipped away at with Void Ring and Meditations on the Taos and meanwhile you opponent only has to deal with a 4.

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1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

Okay, so you're spending 5 Fate to give your opponent an honor advantage and trigger your Stronghold which, unless it's turn 1, you were probably going to get off anyway.

And even if you don't hit Feast or Famine or get Way of the Crab'd you're still going to get chipped away at with Void Ring and Meditations on the Taos and meanwhile you opponent only has to deal with a 4.

Way of the Crab and Feast of Famine are very specific situations, every character can be hit with them (and it can easily be avoided)  so that does not make Ignoble Enforcers a bad card. Plus, Enforces getting focused by your opponent leaves you free to do what you want.

One more thing, I don't think anyone would buy them during first turn, Scorpion Clan has better, cheaper characters to buy early. Later they will provide good strength plus possibility to reactivate stronghold.

All in all I have to agree with Ishi Tonu on this one.

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On 9/15/2018 at 1:29 AM, shineyorkboy said:

And even if you don't hit Feast or Famine or get Way of the Crab'd you're still going to get chipped away at with Void Ring and Meditations on the Taos and meanwhile you opponent only has to deal with a 4.

I don’t run FoF and I don’t have access to Way of the Crab - so how does that affect me? 

As I attempted to state in my previous post above, just having access to these characters (regardless of them being seriously bent if not broken) only further strengthens an already strong faction. Even more so if these cards become part of a Scorpion deck that already is nigh un-beatable against most opponents. 

IMO, the Rival should have been a Lion character, while the Enforcer (with some tweaks such as making it cavalry) would have been a much needed card for Unicorn. As it is, I don’t believe that Scorpion needs these characters as they are already established as a faction with plentiful materials to design a deck with. 

Edited by LordBlunt

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On 9/15/2018 at 2:08 PM, LordBlunt said:

IMO, the Rival should have been a Lion character, while the Enforcer (with some tweaks such as making it cavalry) would have been a much needed card for Unicorn. As it is, I don’t believe that Scorpion needs these characters as they are already established as a faction with plentiful materials to design a deck with. 

Ah yes, just what Unicorn needs, another character overcosted for it's statline. Also, Rival goes against Lion's general tendency to want to be more honorable than their opponent and thus bid low.

On 9/15/2018 at 2:08 PM, LordBlunt said:

I don’t run FoF and I don’t have access to Way of the Crab - so how does that affect me? 

That's really more something that affects Scorpion deckbuilding since putting so many eggs in one basket means making sure what you're buying is worth the investment.

On 9/15/2018 at 2:08 PM, LordBlunt said:

As I attempted to state in my previous post above, just having access to these characters (regardless of them being seriously bent if not broken) only further strengthens an already strong faction. Even more so if these cards become part of a Scorpion deck that already is nigh in-beatable against most opponents. 

The Scorpion pack was going to come out at some point and they had to fill it with something so it might as well be this sub-optimal, glorified coaster fodder. There is no reason to run Enforcer in a faction that has access to Shoju, Kachiko, and the Soshi Daimyo.

Let's look at it this way, Bayushi Yunako can use her ability on herself to effectively become a blank 4/4. You can put 2 fate on her for a total cost of 6, so for only 1 fate more you're avoiding losing an honor and using up you're stronghold for a turn. Add to that the fact that she can create bigger swings by using her ability on another character, she's unique so can get free fate on herself that way, and she's more tactically flexible since she can attack a face down and if it turns out to be a FoF or something like that make herself a 2 and not break it. So overall she's a better value for less cost.

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17 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Let's look at it this way, Bayushi Yunako can use her ability on herself to effectively become a blank 4/4. You can put 2 fate on her for a total cost of 6, so for only 1 fate more you're avoiding losing an honor and using up you're stronghold for a turn. Add to that the fact that she can create bigger swings by using her ability on another character, she's unique so can get free fate on herself that way, and she's more tactically flexible since she can attack a face down and if it turns out to be a FoF or something like that make herself a 2 and not break it. So overall she's a better value for less cost.

The point with Enforces is that you can lower your honor and activate your stronghold which directly contributes to a winning condition (losing condition for your opponent).

City of the Open Hand has a powerful action. Take Shiro Nishiyama for instance, which gives your defending characters a bonus to both military and political strength. It can prevent your loss which THEN can be used for your winning condition (dishonor/destroying opponents' stronghold). There is a slim chance for that. To be honest I never saw a game in which Nishiyama was used to win a conflict and then (because you won a conflict using it) a Crab won the game, it's not impossible but as I said highly unlikely. Don't get me wrong, Nishiyama has a great action but your opponent knows how much strength it can contribute to a conflict and can work around it. To work around City of the Open Hand is much harder, and now Scorpion Clan has a Keeper role and access to Backhanded Compliment which is a great finishing action. With Assassination and Enforcers you can activate your stronghold and get to that  "finishing action" point.

For me Enforces will be used in dishonor decks for reactivating stronghold and as a bonus you get a 4/4 character which stay on board for turn or two.

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52 minutes ago, Bayushi Kec said:

For me Enforces will be used in dishonor decks for reactivating stronghold and as a bonus you get a 4/4 character which stay on board for turn or two.

You missed the 5 fate cost i think. You know, the cost of Shoju or Shiori (you know, the one who actually helps you achieve your win con). If you want to spend 5 gold to take you down 3 honor, go ahead. I'd rather use assassination to do that. Scorpion has a ton of ways to lose honor, I rarely have trouble doing that. What I have trouble with is pushing for the remaining 3 or 4 honor of the opponent (I don't like hovering around 2 or 3, makes me nervous).

If he was costed 1 or 2 with less stats, maybe a courtier trait on top? I'd use him. For 5 fate? I'd buy Shiori. Surprised with the 2 previewed ones not having atleast a shinobi trait considering they advertise Underhand as support for a new playstyle for scorpion.

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1 hour ago, Shosuro Teri said:

You missed the 5 fate cost i think. You know, the cost of Shoju or Shiori (you know, the one who actually helps you achieve your win con).

And you missed the part where you can have Enforcers for multiple turns for the same 5 fate as compared to any other 5 drop that is only sticking around for one turn.

Nobody is saying Enforcers are better than Shoju.  They provide a different kind of value that Shoju does not.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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On 9/17/2018 at 6:43 PM, psychie said:

I don't see the rival as fitting with lion any more than it does with scorpion. Personally, I think the clan it would fit best in is Crane, with Dragon as a second decent choice.

Insolent Rival has some pretty interesting dishonor tech due to the fact that even a 2 Mil character can tie the duel if the honor bids are equal. You can't really bully duel with the Insolent Rival because a same or higher bid will drop the total by 2 points. This lets Scorpion player can actually choose to bid low to potentially inflict an honor loss or bid high to dishonor the target. With proper use a Scorpion player can play some nasty mind games.

The Lion or Crane version of the card would more likely give the boost for having a lower bid.

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Is there another way to look at Enforcer?

It is a 5 fate 4/4 for one turn: bad investment

It is a 4 fate 4/4 with 1 fate on it with a loss of 1 honor 

It is a 3 fate 4/4 with 2 fate on it with a loss of 2 honor

or it is a 2 fate 4/4 with 3 fate on it with a loss of 3 honor and immune to assassinate.

 

This is not entirely correct, but looking at it like that the card does seem better than comparing it to other 5 coasters. i do not think it is terrible. It has versatile enough stats that it may help shore up weaknesses. I think it could warrant a slot in some decks.

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20 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

And you missed the part where you can have Enforcers for multiple turns for the same 5 fate as compared to any other 5 drop that is only sticking around for one turn.

Not really. That's the part I consider the 'bonus' part, not the 4/4 part. I don't go buying shoes for the shoe laces alone, I don't know about you. The one I commented to was stating that the 4/4 body was the 'bonus' part not the 'gets to stay longer and gets you to activate your stronghold more' part. It's easy to sell a shoelace when you say that it comes with sub par shoes for free. Hey it's free right? Not if you factor the price in, and for that price you're getting better quality shoes. Like Shoju and Shiori levels of quality.

Just go buy the laces separately, it's not like you can't have the same effect for cheap like I stated earlier.

Edited by Shosuro Teri

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If that's your analogy then yes you completely missed the point and then double downed on it and missed it again.

Let me help you with your shoe analogy. You have $100 to spend On some fancy shoes that will last you a week or the ugly pair that last you a month.

Which pair do you buy?

Depends on what you need them for.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

If that's your analogy then yes you completely missed the point and then double downed on it and missed it again.

Let me help you with your shoe analogy. You have $100 to spend On some fancy shoes that will last you a week or the ugly pair that last you a month.

Which pair do you buy?

Depends on what you need them for.

Good, then I know where you and I can't seem to agree.

If you're analogy for Shoju or Shiori is 'fancy shoes', then I think you are the one missing the point. There is a bar set by most 5 gold cost characters in the game, that's not 'fancy'to me, that's the widely accepted 'decent pair of shoes' for that price. Stat wise alone when the game came out, Tsukune was widely thought of as the least cost efficient 5 cost card, and she's a 4/4. People liked her because of her bonus as a redeeming factor (getting to trigger up to 2 unclaimed rings), which was HUGE. With a dishonor deck, you tend to value on-board actions more because of the low bid. If the redeeming factor of a sub par 5 cost character is for me to keep that blank character longer, I'd probably have better luck putting that fate into characters with repeatable actions instead. I can reduce my honor thru other means.

Again, if the action on Ignoble is on a cheaper body, with appropriate stats or a relevant keyword atleast? I'd use it. I already have enough 4-5 cost characters jousting for position already.

Also, it's good you said depends on what you need them for because the post I commented to specifically said he needs it to activate the SH. I said if that's the reason you wanna use it, I think there are cheaper options for that.

Edited by Shosuro Teri

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Well, you're Scorpion so you probably are't buying him for his Pol stat. So would you run Marauding Oni if it were immune to Assassination?

For starters if the goal is to get the opponent to 0 then I'd think having them lose 3 to kill a guy is a good thing, but besides that Oni is more flexible fatewise, immune to Pol duels, and it doesn't front load the honor loss.

If Ignoble is good enough and/or Scorpion is in need of honor loss enough to run it then we should see some trend of Scorpion already running the Oni. But, to my knowledge, we do not.

I can't help but agree with Teri, if you want me to invest 5 fate in something it needs to do more than be another body on the board.

 

I have thought of a way that I kind of like him, but I must stress that I do not consider this idea competitive. With the new SH he can drop you to 6 honor, be in a conflict, and then get him dishonored somehow (Calling in Favors or redirecting the dishonoring from a Forged Edict or something) then he can be in 2 conflicts per turn. Phoenix has already shown that a 3/3 for 4 that can reliably ready is very useful so it's not entirely unreasonable.

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2 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

I have thought of a way that I kind of like him, but I must stress that I do not consider this idea competitive. With the new SH he can drop you to 6 honor, be in a conflict, and then get him dishonored somehow (Calling in Favors or redirecting the dishonoring from a Forged Edict or something) then he can be in 2 conflicts per turn. Phoenix has already shown that a 3/3 for 4 that can reliably ready is very useful so it's not entirely unreasonable.

That's how I see myself running Ignoble, a face beater in a Military centric deck with the new SH. ****, I'll even buy him turn 1 in a deck like that. I won't even bother trying to dishonor him, I'll just use him twice in a turn and just ambush/charge people out of provinces.

I love it when people use assasination on my guys. I actually load up Sinister Soshi with 2-3 fates just to tempt them. The way I see it, they're making my job a whole lot easier if they did that.

Edited by Shosuro Teri

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I'm not arguing if there are better cards for 5 fate or if there are better ways to activate City of the Open Hand.

The only point I have made about Enforcers is that they provide you with a superior fate value than any other 5 drop. That is something that I feel is pretty difficult to dispute and that is what makes Enforcers attractive. 

Getting a 4/4 charcter for 4 turns instead of a character with better stats/ability for 1 turn is the point.  In a game where fate matters do I want to dump 5 fate on a great character, knowing it will only last the turn, or do I want to play my fate on a good character that is going to last me 4 turns?  That the only decision that's in question when evaluating the card from the perspective of fate value......which is what I've been doing.

But please don't let that stop anyone from arguing something completely unrelated to anything I've said.

Edited by Ishi Tonu

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