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Hiemfire

Puzzled about the 2.0 Scurrg

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

I get that their was a very broken synergy between Nym and Miranda Rebel side. Yet now that the Rebels don't have access to it, what Scum side synergy existed in 1.0 that warranted the massive neutering that the Scurrg base chassis got in 2.0?

Everything that was powerful in 1.0 was brought down a couple of notches, and everything that was garbage was given a bit of a boost. It’s not just the Scurrg. 

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20 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Everything that was powerful in 1.0 was brought down a couple of notches, and everything that was garbage was given a bit of a boost. It’s not just the Scurrg. 

I realize that, big one for the Scurrg was pulling it from Rebels. What was going on with the chassis Scum side that warranted this though?

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9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I realize that, big one for the Scurrg was pulling it from Rebels. What was going on with the chassis Scum side that warranted this though?

PS10 with unlimited bombs, manoeuvrable and had 10HP, the ability to drop bombs after moving, harpoons, turrets, advanced sensors, etc. etc. etc.

The ship itself goes against the typology of ship design in 2.0. It does everything fairly well, and does a lot of things very well. It had to die.

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3 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

PS10 with unlimited bombs, manoeuvrable and had 10HP, the ability to drop bombs after moving, harpoons, turrets, advanced sensors, etc. etc. etc.

The ship itself goes against the typology of ship design in 2.0. It does everything fairly well, and does a lot of things very well. It had to die.

So every upgrade that got removed or heavily altered is why? Nuke it to the ground because players used it to abuse things that nolonger exist? Wow that's petty.

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12 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

So every upgrade that got removed or heavily altered is why? Nuke it to the ground because players used it to abuse things that nolonger exist? Wow that's petty.

It was a do all ship with no identity.

That being said it still has 2 bomb slots, 10 HP, a turret slot, barrel roll and access to advanced sensors, and gains regen through astromechs, Nym got both rebel and scum Nym's 1.0 ability, and its cheaper too. 'Nuke it to the ground' is not exactly accurate. It just feels like a heavy bomber should now, not the 'I do everything better' ship it was in 1.0.

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9 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

It was a do all ship with no identity.

That being said it still has 2 bomb slots, 10 HP, a turret slot, barrel roll and access to advanced sensors, and gains regen through astromechs, Nym got both rebel and scum Nym's 1.0 ability, and its cheaper too. 'Nuke it to the ground' is not exactly accurate. It just feels like a heavy bomber should now, not the 'I do everything better' ship it was in 1.0.

Try to set one up without title and then see if it is a "heavy bomber" to you... With title you can deploy only 1. To use the bomblets more than twice it has to damage its health. Without Gonk (10pts) or title + R2 (10pts combined) it has no regen. Traj Sim is hard linked to title.... Now compare that to what they did to the other toxic heavy bomber (K-Wing)… The thing is a boom and zoom nightmare.

Edit: Don't forget to look at pts cost while you do...

Edited by Hiemfire

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

Try to set one up without title and then see if it is a "heavy bomber" to you... With title you can deploy only 1. To use the bomblets more than twice it has to damage its health. Without Gonk (10pts) or title + R2 (10pts combined) it has no regen. Traj Sim is hard linked to title.... Now compare that to what they did to the other toxic heavy bomber (K-Wing)… The thing is a boom and zoom nightmare.

Edit: Don't forget to look at pts cost while you do...

Well it's clear now you have no desire to actually discuss this, you just want to complain. I'm not being apart of that.

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1 minute ago, BVRCH said:

Well it's clear now you have no desire to actually discuss this, you just want to complain. I'm not being apart of that.

You pointed out that the upgrades that were used in 1.0, most of which don't exist anymore or were nerfed to **** (not necessarily a bad thing), were the chief reason that the Scurrg is in the present state it is in now. I stated my opinion on that (that it was petty of them to take it to this extreme) and you replied trying present how it is useable. The Scurrg is set up right now in 2.0 as a 1 per squad Ace bomber. To run anymore than that, heck even running that one, you're crippling your squad. As a heavy bomber though it should at least in some way be comparable to what its similies are at roughly the same cost.

Examples: Kwing;

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Punisher;

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

What does Scum have that is close to equitable to those two? The Scurrg ain't it.

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3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I get that their was a very broken synergy between Nym and Miranda Rebel side. Yet now that the Rebels don't have access to it, what Scum side synergy existed in 1.0 that warranted the massive neutering that the Scurrg base chassis got in 2.0?

Just so we're clear, the Scurrg is still very good and is in my favourite 2.0 list doing a heroic amount of work.

Nerfed or not it's still a really good ship.

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41 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You pointed out that the upgrades that were used in 1.0, most of which don't exist anymore or were nerfed to **** (not necessarily a bad thing), were the chief reason that the Scurrg is in the present state it is in now. I stated my opinion on that (that it was petty of them to take it to this extreme) and you replied trying present how it is useable. The Scurrg is set up right now in 2.0 as a 1 per squad Ace bomber. To run anymore than that, heck even running that one, you're crippling your squad. As a heavy bomber though it should at least in some way be comparable to what its similies are at roughly the same cost.

Examples: Kwing;

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Warden Squadron Pilot (40)
Homing Missiles (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Punisher;

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (36)
Trajectory Simulator (3)
Skilled Bombardier (2)
Bomblet Generator (5)
Shield Upgrade (*)

Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

What does Scum have that is close to equitable to those two? The Scurrg ain't it.

I don't think trying to replicate bad squads like that is something Scum players should be attempting to do.

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8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

I don't think trying to replicate bad squads like that is something Scum players should be attempting to do.

They were examples that demonstrate that what Scum has to pay a third to a half of a list for to approximate cost only a fourth of the list for Rebels and Empire. And didn't you publish the quad kwing list on your blog, or am I getting mixed up on that?

Edit: never mind. Yours was a bit different.

Edited by Hiemfire

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Just now, Hiemfire said:

They were examples that demonstrate that what Scum has to pay a third to a half of a list for to approximate cost only a fourth of the list for Rebels and Empire. And didn't you publish the quad kwing list on your blog, or am I getting mixed up on that?

I published a Quad K list, not that one though, and was pretty clear I've no idea if it's actually good or not - we were stretching to find any Rebel lists we liked enough to talk about at all.

The Scurrg is fine, especially the Havoc Scurrg.  And it's healthy if the factions can't do the same thing as each other so it may be intentional design to make a unique Scurrg more interesting than a generic.

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Just to throw my hat into the ring, I don’t think that all three factions should essentially have the same tools with different skins. That defeats the purpose of faction identities. Yes they can all have a heavy bomber option (double bomb slots) but they should play different fundementally and fill that niche in different ways.

Let’s start with the punisher (36 points)

it already exists as a premium option to its younger brother the tie bomber, giving access to more of the same tricks. It’s a scaled up version of a proven concept. However, what it offers the empire is a medium base platform from which one can utilise bomblet generator and leverage the double bomb slots while protecting it with a decent health. However, unlike the K and Skurrg, it has a two dice Primary and focuses primarily on munitions. It’s a heavy bomber like they are, but it’s one that focuses entirely on ordnance.

Then we have the K-Wing (40points)

it exists as a downgrade to other butterfly arc turret ships, giving that same turret style play mechanic on a cheaper and weaker chassis. Already it’s fundementally different from the punisher, which as I stated above exists as a premium. Like the other heavy bombers, it has access to the double bomb slot. However, while it too is largely ordnance focussed, it provides the crew slot, meaning that it can serve as a support class ship. On top of that, it fills a unique niche with SLAM, giving it a unique movement style in revel faction and allowing tpit to disengage far more effectively than its other heavy bomber counterparts. Unlike the others on this list, it has a turret, slam and unlike the punisher it has a crew slot. It fits the Rebel faction identity in that it is a heavy bomber that cannot compete with the punisher on price or efficiency, but can do so through synergy in the crew slot and disengaging with SLAM for that classic rebel longevity and teamwork.

last but not least, we have the Skurrg (46 points)

as the most expensive bomber, we see an increase in health, dial manouverability and attack dice. It doesn’t really have a relation in the Scum faction being neither a cheaper turret platform or a more expensive weapon platform. The hwk could be a point of comparison as could the Y-Wing, however one of those is a support ship and the other is a secondary weapon carrier. The Skurrg, as such, is unique rather than being a premium or a cheaper alternative with added tricks. It has the double bomb slot, but it can also joust better than the others without ordnance. It can also take a turret upgrade unlike the others and as such can fill the role of a control ship. It has a crew similar to the rebel K but doesn’t fly like a support ship lingering outside of battle or disengaging.  This is what the Skurrg does that is unique. It can pre-move reposition, regen and utilise synergy with the crew slot. It fits the scum faction identity, in that it is extremely versatile and, while being a heavy bomber, it can fill any number of secondary roles from a support ship, to a control piece, to a regen end to mid game cruiser. It doesn’t act the same as the other heavy bombers, who in turn don’t act like each other.

 

this completely disregards the named pilots, this solely assesses the chassis and upgrade options of each ship in their generic forms. The named pilots lean the Skurrg more heavily towards bombing just as redline leans the punisher towards ordnance and Esege leans towards being a support.

they do different things while filling the same role. That is faction identity. The same class of ship that flys fundementally differently in unique ways that suit their faction.

there’s not a whole lot of value in saying that it is a worse ordnance carrier, it can’t take ordnance, it doesn’t fill that role. It takes bombs like they do and can do so arguably better than others as the K can’t take trajectory simulator and the punisher can’t joust on its primary attack and both have less health. In terms of being specifically a bomber, it is most likely the best of the heavy bomber class for those reasons. It can’t beat the others in ordnance but it doesn’t have to.

the point of comparison is valid, but arguing that it is worse in every comceivable way is not.

i hope this is of some help, good luck out there

Edited by Quadjumper King

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To be honest, the Scurrg has taken a kicking.

  • The bomblet generator did give you shield damage to use it back in Jedi Starfighter.
    • That said, I think the Scurrg is the only ship which can carry a bomblet generator which lacks reload?
    • Especially given Nym's ability, I think Proximity and Connor Mines are probably the order of the day.
  • Yes, you cannot field 4 bomblet generator armed ships. I accept this and agree.
    • That said, a Punisher so armed and lacking ordnance doesn't really have much else going for it, whilst a scurrg has a decent primary weapon.
    • Unless you know you're facing a swarm, I can't see a reason to want to take such a squad.
  • The main thing which seems to have been cut away isn't the bombs so much as the missile and torp options
    • Primarily torpedoes - missiles are less important on a ship with a 3-dice primary.
  • It remains what it always has been - pretty much the base chassis of the Havok - much like the TIE/x1 (where you could take 'not darth vader' but why would you) it's pretty much you could take 'not the havok' but why would you. Unlike the other two heavy bombers it is very much an ace list element.
    • Yes, it's proportionately much more of a list, but it's also more of a ship - 10 hit points to a Cutlass/Warden's 9, a 3-dice primary and turret slot (although weirdly no gunner slot), and the option of an astromech.
Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Just now, SOTL said:

I published a Quad K list, not that one though, and was pretty clear I've no idea if it's actually good or not - we were stretching to find any Rebel lists we liked enough to talk about at all.

The Scurrg is fine, especially the Havoc Scurrg.  And it's healthy if the factions can't do the same thing as each other so it may be intentional design to make a unique Scurrg more interesting than a generic.

Hopefully they add something that makes the generic or any non-Havoc Scurrg worth while. They aren't right now.

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8 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Scurrgs and the entire Rebel faction.

I think it’s the crew slot that is hurting the rebel faction, the support class ships lack great options to leverage the idea of a support class vessel outside of a few fringe cases (Jyn on Kyle Katarn) while other crew are closer to combat retrofits (Han as action economy and Saw as a doom shuttle conversion). The U-Wing, Wookie gunship and Ghost would really like better support options as they aren’t really centrepiece ships in and of themselves (though the ghost could be). 

Other synergistic options like selfless are somewhat lacklustre as damage spreading doesn’t seemed to be favoured in this admittedly yet to fully shape meta. 

I think the rebels have mostly fine chassis’, with a few being overcosted somewhat,  but really lack proper support options as a large number of their ships are designated support vessels as they were in 1.0

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9 minutes ago, Quadjumper King said:

Just to throw my hat into the ring, I don’t think that all three factions should essentially have the same tools with different skins. That defeats the purpose of faction identities. Yes they can all have a heavy bomber option (double bomb slots) but they should play different fundementally and fill that niche in different ways.

Let’s start with the punisher (36 points)

it already exists as a premium option to its younger brother the tie bomber, giving access to more of the same tricks. It’s a scaled up version of a proven concept. However, what it offers the empire is a medium base platform from which one can utilise bomblet generator and leverage the double bomb slots while protecting it with a decent health. However, unlike the K and Skurrg, it has a two dice Primary and focuses primarily on munitions. It’s a heavy bomber like they are, but it’s one that focuses entirely on ordnance.

Then we have the K-Wing (40points)

it exists as a downgrade to other butterfly arc turret ships, giving that same turret style play mechanic on a cheaper and weaker chassis. Already it’s fundementally different from the punisher, which as I stated above exists as a premium. Like the other heavy bombers, it has access to the double bomb slot. However, while it too is largely ordnance focussed, it provides the crew slot, meaning that it can serve as a support class ship. On top of that, it fills a unique niche with SLAM, giving it a unique movement style in revel faction and allowing tpit to disengage far more effectively than its other heavy bomber counterparts. Unlike the others on this list, it has a turret, slam and unlike the punisher it has a crew slot. It fits the Rebel faction identity in that it is a heavy bomber that cannot compete with the punisher on price or efficiency, but can do so through synergy in the crew slot and disengaging with SLAM for that classic rebel longevity and teamwork.

last but not least, we have the Skurrg (46 points)

as the most expensive bomber, we see an increase in health, dial manouverability and attack dice. It doesn’t really have a relation in the Scum faction being neither a cheaper turret platform or a more expensive weapon platform. The hwk could be a point of comparison as could the Y-Wing, however one of those is a support ship and the other is a secondary weapon carrier. The Skurrg, as such, is unique rather than being a premium or a cheaper alternative with added tricks. It has the double bomb slot, but it can also joust better than the others without ordnance. It can also take a turret upgrade unlike the others and as such can fill the role of a control ship. It has a crew similar to the rebel K but doesn’t fly like a support ship lingering outside of battle or disengaging.  This is what the Skurrg does that is unique. It can pre-move reposition, regen and utilise synergy with the crew slot. It fits the scum faction identity, in that it is extremely versatile and, while being a heavy bomber, it can fill any number of secondary roles from a support ship, to a control piece, to a regen end to mid game cruiser. It doesn’t act the same as the other heavy bombers, who in turn don’t act like each other.

 

this completely disregards the named pilots, this solely assesses the chassis and upgrade options of each ship in their generic forms. The named pilots lean the Skurrg more heavily towards bombing just as redline leans the punisher towards ordnance and Esege leans towards being a support.

they do different things while filling the same role. That is faction identity. The same class of ship that flys fundementally differently in unique ways that suit their faction.

there’s not a whole lot of value in saying that it is a worse ordnance carrier, it can’t take ordnance, it doesn’t fill that role. It takes bombs like they do and can do so arguably better than others as the K can’t take trajectory simulator and the punisher can’t joust on its primary attack and both have less health. In terms of being specifically a bomber, it is most likely the best of the heavy bomber class for those reasons. It can’t beat the others in ordnance but it doesn’t have to.

the point of comparison is valid, but arguing that it is worse in every comceivable way is not.

i hope this is of some help, good luck out there

Lacking gunner and reload, as Magnus Grendel pointed out, is a big strike aganst it and Scum really doesn't have that many squad supporting crew options. 4-LOM and 0-0-0 might fit that bill. Running Sol with Squad Leader and Tac officer is an option, but that hinders their ability to get clear if you need to drop and cordinate a squad mate, as limited as the Squad leader cordinate is (cordinating a Focus is almost always usefull).

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4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Lacking gunner and reload, as Magnus Grendel pointed out, is a big strike aganst it and Scum really doesn't have that many squad supporting crew options. 4-LOM and 0-0-0 might fit that bill. Running Sol with Squad Leader and Tac officer is an option, but that hinders their ability to get clear if you need to drop and cordinate a squad mate, as limited as the Squad leader cordinate is (cordinating a Focus is almost always usefull).

I agree, it can’t perform as well in those areas. 

But rebels have similar problems with lacklustre support options. I believe the Skurrg to be a more versatile chassis nonetheless though because those are still options that it has available. 

In terms of being an ordnance carrier though, the punisher is the best heavy bomber for the fact that it has a gunner slot, reload and missile/torp slots. That’s pretty clear.

my point is that the Skurrg can’t compete in that regards and as such has a different use. It isn’t the ship it used to be and isn’t t a scum punisher or a scum K-wing. It’s something else.

Edited by Quadjumper King

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1 minute ago, Quadjumper King said:

I agree, it can’t perform as well in those areas. 

But rebels have similar problems with lacklustre support options. I believe the Skurrg to be a more versatile chassis nonetheless though because those are still options that it has available. 

In terms of being an ordnance carrier though, the punisher is the best heavy bomber for the fact that it has a gunner slot, reload and missile/torp slots. That’s pretty clear.

my point is that the Skurrg can’t compete in that regards and as such has a different use. It isn’t the ship it used to be and isn’t t a scum punisher or a scum K-wing. It’s something else.

Right now it is stuck as an Ace platform, atleast that is how it looks to me. :(

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3 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Right now it is stuck as an Ace platform, atleast that is how it looks to me. :(

Yeah, your pretty much right. I’ve seen a triple generics list that jousts but the chassis with all its options does seem to favour ace style play.

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52 points for a Lok Revenant with a Dorsal Turret seems pretty decent to me.  It gives you two arcs with three attack dice, some control options, and a pretty tanky 10 health.  I'd be happy slotting that into a lot of lists.

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Just now, Jarval said:

52 points for a Lok Revenant with a Dorsal Turret seems pretty decent to me.  It gives you two arcs with three attack dice, some control options, and a pretty tanky 10 health.  I'd be happy slotting that into a lot of lists.

Its 50 pts with dorsal, 52 with ion cannon, and you can get a kitted turret Y-Wing for that with only a slight loss in speed and hp.

Hired Gun (34)
Expert Handling (*)
Dorsal Turret (4)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
R4 Astromech (2)

Total: 50

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Its 50 pts with dorsal, 52 with ion cannon, and you can get a kitted turret Y-Wing for that with only a slight loss in speed and hp.

Hired Gun (34)
Expert Handling (*)
Dorsal Turret (4)
Veteran Turret Gunner (8)
R4 Astromech (2)

Total: 50

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Yeah the Lok is a lot better than that Y-Wing.  You're proving yourself wrong.

Did you miss the extra red dice primary????

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