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Dwing

Missed opportunities in 2.0

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6 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I would have pushed the E-wing and K-Wing to be Resistance fighters. Sorta blend the histories of those ships a bit and flesh out the Resistance a bit more.

Yeah, I guess as "New Republic" ships these guys really don't have a home anymore.  Oops.

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2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Nah. 

The styles of combat being reflected in Armada and X-Wing are way too different. Given how slowly cap ships in Star Wars move, a green dice equivalent makes no sense. Even with the high quality of the Imperial Marksmanship Academy, there's no way a Star Destroyer gunner is missing a massive Mon Cal cruiser moving at 10kph.

This and this are all you need to see that you can be pointed right at a ship in a dogfight and still miss. Green dice do their job in representing that even a seemingly perfectly lined up shot isn't guaranteed to hit while the other pilot is doing all they can to shake you off.

Green dice may be a pain for variance, but they're an important part of the feel of the game. I guess you could do it through an Armada style exhaustible token system, but that might be even more of a pain to balance. I feel like the existing tokens already basically do that job while also tying in to the action balance. 

Different Armada style attack dice would have been good, but not for range. The existing range restrictions on certain weapons already do their job. Alternate dice should have been included to allow for things like low accuracy, high damage weapons (fewer painted die faces, but double hits on some of the faces) or high accuracy, low damage weapons by using an Armada style accuracy symbol that cancels an evade but doesn't cause damage. Certain weapons, like Concussion missiles, could use a combination of the two. 

That's what the different dice in Armada are supposed to represent too. It's just that starships have way more guns, and way more opportunity to fire all of their weapons at once - that's why you still roll red dice at range 1. Black is ordnance and fast firing, accurate, low damage point defence guns. Blue is ion weapons and laser cannon turrets, red is turbolasers. Each weapon in X-Wing can only be fired individually, so controlling applicable range by upgrade specific rules makes more sense. 

My biggest mechanical complaint with X-Wing is how accuracy and damage are tied to the same roll. It would have been great to get two new sets of dice: one for high-damage, low-accuracy as you described, and another with high-accuracy, low-damage (maybe with a new symbol that cancels evade results but doesn't add damage).

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1 hour ago, DarthHenryAllen said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the names would exist on any token. I meant, say you have a generic X-Wing Ship token under your X-Wing (that just shows the arcs and related hash marks) and you put a Ship ID on there (let's say '5'), then you put a Ship ID '5' token on your Luke Skywalker Card, you now know that X-Wing is Luke Skywalker. There is no need to have his initiative and name printed on any token with the model.

I agree there are only limited situations where lack of IDs/Locks will come up but, as you point out, just a couple more sets would have eliminated those cases. 

That makes more sense, but it is still the need to locate another token.. While the 2nd ed requirement to have a ship ID is not ideal.  I think it is the 'cleanest' method I can currently think of.  

I do agree that they should have given us 8 IDs/Locks and more shields.  That is less a miss opportunity then just a really odd omission.  I made some ship IDs and locks, as well as using a marker to turn 1st ed shield tokens into 2nd ed shield tokens as I don't anticipate the need to buy many 2.0 expansions for a while.

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38 minutes ago, redxavier said:

My main issue is with ships like the Punisher, Aggressor, Decimator, E-wings and a lot of the scum ships - put it simply, I don't much like the designs. I feel that with the Legends wipe these should have all gone as well (I also believe there are too many ships in the game).

Even though it would also mean elimination of things I do like like Soontir Fel. I just figure that to be fair, all of it should go rather than electing to decide for myself what's 'worthy' to stay or go.

Stuff like this is why gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff

It basically reads "let's get rid of some of the most fun ships in the game because canon." 

Bleck

1 hour ago, Forgottenlore said:

 

Of course, the GAMEPLAY reasons make much more sense as is. Dice are fast and tense, enhancing the feel of fighter combat, while defense tokens require some thought and planning, enhancing the strategic feel of capital ships. 

Fluff reasons are second fiddle when it comes to game design (because it's A GAME, and because a well designed game can accommodate fluff to a reasonable extent) 

So, I really appreciate an actual gameplay justification for green dice. It's really good food for thought ?

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I guess as "New Republic" ships these guys really don't have a home anymore.  Oops.

I mean, so were the T-70s we have now until they were replaced by the T-85s we have yet to see in the films. The E-Wing and K-Wing could be chalked up to early New Republic fighters that were retired and mothballed until being picked up by a Resistance cell we haven't seen yet or were replaced by the T-70s and B/SF-17s.

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11 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Stuff like this is why gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fluff

It basically reads "let's get rid of some of the most fun ships in the game because canon." 

Bleck

There's a certain irony in you citing gameplay in defence of ships whose introduction have led to countless complaints and ultimately has led us to Second Edition...

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9 minutes ago, redxavier said:

There's a certain irony in you citing gameplay in defence of ships whose introduction have led to countless complaints and ultimately has led us to Second Edition...

Oh right, because it's the SHIP's fault

Bad jumpmaster! How DARE you develop sentience and design your own rules!?!?!?

Bad jumpmaster! No biscuit!

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 hour ago, DarthHenryAllen said:

Not a huge deal but I think having generic tokens for each ship instead of per pilot was a bit of a missed opportunity. We have to use Ship ID tokens every game now anyhow (in order to associate locks with ships) so it seems like we don't really get much value from the initiative value and pilot name being on the token. This would have saved space in conversion kits for other things!

Speaking of conversions and Ship ID + Locks, I like the new system but I'm disappointed that there aren't any of these in the conversion kits with the core set only having values 1-6 included. Obviously I can use the old tokens/method so it's not like it is a disaster or anything, just feels like a couple more in the core or in each conversion would have been perfect. 

A lot people dont use apps in board games. Removing even more information from cards and tokens is not a good idea

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2 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

A lot people dont use apps in board games. Removing even more information from cards and tokens is not a good idea

The alteration being described would not have moved information to the APP, just eliminated redundancy in the physical product. This way the Tie Fighter would only need 4 base tokens in the conversion kit instead of considerably more. This in turn leaves room for the new Shield Tokens, more Calculate and Charge tokens, etc. as well as making it easier to include enough stuff to run the a number of generic pilots equal to the number of dials in the conversion kit (A-wing and Z-95 swarms require 3 conversion kits to get enough bases in the current system, and if somebody wants to run 4 Blue Squadron Scouts, they need to raid 4 conversion kits for generic U-wing bases and cards!)

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Leaving point costs off cards was a terrible idea, and conversion was handled badly. Really the App handling overall is awful. 

Most balance changes seem pretty good, and the particularly bad ideas (like making bullseye arcs all-important) can at least be errata'd later or nullified with new upgrades

As a long time player I wanted 2.0 to bring back the feel and flavor of waves 1-6...   A fun and simple game with engaging mechanics with movement and planning at its core. X-Wing was appealing because it was a strategy game that wasnt designed around manipulating numbers MTG style, and thus was more fun than competetive by nature. Was hoping 2.0 would steer it back on course

Instead 2.0 doubled down on complexity with action chains, multiple energy/charge currencies, bullseyes all around, and baked in titles, all while requiring an app to patch pricing.  Alas, guess I just have to wait for 3rd edition in fall 2020

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13 minutes ago, Squark said:

The alteration being described would not have moved information to the APP, just eliminated redundancy in the physical product. This way the Tie Fighter would only need 4 base tokens in the conversion kit instead of considerably more. This in turn leaves room for the new Shield Tokens, more Calculate and Charge tokens, etc. as well as making it easier to include enough stuff to run the a number of generic pilots equal to the number of dials in the conversion kit (A-wing and Z-95 swarms require 3 conversion kits to get enough bases in the current system, and if somebody wants to run 4 Blue Squadron Scouts, they need to raid 4 conversion kits for generic U-wing bases and cards!)

Are you describing chits or tokens? I assume chits(the square bits that go on bases). I think we agree completely, Just making sure we're on the same page

FFG should have just put more chits in the conversions, along with more unique pilots and more medium bases. Theyre making a considerable profit off each one and retaining your players is worth making $12 instead of $14 profit off each kit. As is im not converting 3/4 of my collection because its a 50% conversion tax

 

Edited by Vontoothskie

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New types of obstacles. 

Nebula Clouds - obstruct attacks but no effect when passing through, but they are larger than asteroids

Ion Storms - Give ion tokens for passing through, obviously

Sensor Satelites (maybe) - free focus if in range 1, or maybe something to do with locks

pooooosibly asteroids that move in the device phase

etc...

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1 hour ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I would have pushed the E-wing and K-Wing to be Resistance fighters. Sorta blend the histories of those ships a bit and flesh out the Resistance a bit more.

They SHOULD have used the e-wing in TFA. 

And give the 1st order ?Interceptors as standard fighters and make the SF a 2-seater Defender. 

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7 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

No

Uneven dials are a gimmick that we really don't need more of 

The only real misses opprotunity is they didn't go all in on Armada style range dependent dice + NO GREEN DICE 

That's just your opinion man... I like the uneven dial, ads another challenge, well in 2.0 it will, when its not ridicoulesly good anymore. I hope the Heavy tie from Solo will get an uneven dial to. 

Edited by Dwing

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FFG has done a lot of subtle streamlining with X-wing 2.0, but I for one would've liked to see more trimming of the fat. Purely for the quality of the game, I'm not sure X-wing needs:

  • 7 factions
  • 50+ unique ships 
  • 16 upgrade types
  • 13 different actions
  • 16 different small tokens/markers

If it was me, I would've refocused on the classic Wave 1-4 ships (plus the Gunboat ?) and make the best possible streamlined game out of that. Of course a 'quality over quantity' approach without power creep wouldn't make nearly as much $$$.

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