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Best list to combat spectre cell

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On 9/28/2018 at 12:20 PM, Kalandros said:

Because its his Activation, thus an Interrupt to "Perform a Move" grants him movement points but no immediate moving out of the way.

After having looked at OTL, you are mistaken, bacause OTL does not give movement points, but lets you interrupt to perfom a move, so it still works.

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22 minutes ago, GilDK said:

After having looked at OTL, you are mistaken, bacause OTL does not give movement points, but lets you interrupt to perfom a move, so it still works.

Unfortunately, no.  "Performing a move" does not actually move your character, it just puts movement points equal to your speed into the movement pool.  On the one hand it's a good system (since it lets you do things like move two spaces, shoot, move back two spaces) but on the other hand it's suuuuper confusing when you first try to wrap your head around it.

 

Edit:  The distinction is that during your activation movement points go into a pool that you can use at any time (but can't be used during the attack action that's already happening).  When it's not your activation the rules state that any movement points gained must be used immediately, and thus they do interrupt the attack action allowing Han or whoever to get out of the way of attacks.

And finally, just to add one more exception (and this one I think is pretty dumb, but there you go): any movement points gained as part of a "special action" (one with the arrow symbol) must be used immediately, even if it's during your activation.  So if you play a card like "Urgency" (move your speed plus 2) you have to use those movement points right away and all at once - in this case you're not allowed to move 3, shoot, then move 3 back.

 

Edited by ManateeX

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2 hours ago, GilDK said:

OTL does not give movement points, but lets you interrupt to perform a move

See above. Summary rephrased: Performing a move gives movement points equal to Speed. If you gain movement points during your activation (aside from the exception of as part of a special action), they go into movement point pool and can only be spent during your activation when not resolving any other ability.

The power of On the Lam is when used out of your activation and thus get to spend the gained movement points immediately. (Gaining or spending them as interrupts is irrelevant other than by being descriptive.)

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6 hours ago, GilDK said:

After having looked at OTL, you are mistaken, bacause OTL does not give movement points, but lets you interrupt to perfom a move, so it still works.

Others have already replied to correct you so there's nothing else to add except:

Don't use On the Lam during your activation :D

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So, it has now been a while. I have played a couple more games against Spectre cell and in short its not going great. In the last seven games I am 1-6. Three games were Close and four were not Close at all. eEcho base troopers are the only deployments that I get to make decent trades with Spectre cell units and they have been contributing in most of the Close games. Han has been decent but is too easy to focus down if I dont have the good command cards in hand. Vader + Jets and IG + quays have not been very successfull. They lack the Power to take out a deployment and are too fragile on their own against the cell. The plus one dagamge is proving to be huge and the plus one block is very annoying.

My current angle is to try to scrape together another set of six that is as good as the cell. Not doing too good there either tbh. even though rebels in general are not bad at all around the 5-8 Point slot.   

How are you all doing?

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17 hours ago, buckero0 said:

I've done well with rebel smugglers, although some timely dodges never hurt. Vader and jets and riots should murder spectre. They can't do enough damage nor handle the amount of strain, weaken and attacks

Yeah, the smugglers have been doing decently for me as well, but it feels like it is a matter of coincidence. If I draw the good smuggler cards and/or roll a timely Dodge or two I win, if not I lose.

I have been loosing horribly with Vader Jets Riots and I dont know why really... I too feel that it should be a good matchup against the cell, but they repeatedly manages to one shot most of my lighter hitters. That +1 damage has turned out to be a pain for my Jets. Its a statistical fluke, but it feels like it has been the reason for troops to get one-shot by pretty much every cell member many times. Im ok with the force users killing them, but Zeb and Sabine really shouldnt...

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We've been this w&e at Spanish national, and there was 16 spectres of 60 players.

At top8 were 3 scum, 1 rebel (non spectre) and 4 spectres.

At top4 3 spectres and 1 scum

At finals 2 spectres.

After this weekend, my conclusion is that spectres are hard to defeat, but not impossible. Defeat them, depends more on the player and their strategy than in the chosen squad.

I've been paired with 4 spectres at the first 6 rounds...

It was the first time at some national and I really enjoyed it.

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19 hours ago, Jilguens said:

16 spectres of 60 players.

top8 were 3 scum, 1 rebel (non spectre) and 4 spectres.

top4 3 spectres and 1 scum

finals 2 spectres.

I've been paired with 4 spectres at the first 6 rounds...

This is the problem. Not whether Spectre is "OP" or "too good" or "unbeatable" or whatever, just that you'll never see anything else. The faction/unit diversity in this game has always been a bit iffy but has gradually improved. Now most games seem to be against the same six figures. YAWN.

When 4x4 was this dominant, FFG didn't just nerf the units themselves but also changed the game as a whole to solve the problem. Somehow I can't see them changing anything this time. Would love to be wrong...

Edited by Bitterman

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1 hour ago, Bitterman said:

This is the problem. Not whether Spectre is "OP" or "too good" or "unbeatable" or whatever, just that you'll never see anything else. The faction/unit diversity in this game has always been a bit iffy but has gradually improved. Now most games seem to be against the same six figures. YAWN.

When 4x4 was this dominant, FFG didn't just nerf the units themselves but also changed the game as a whole to solve the problem. Somehow I can't see them changing anything this time. Would love to be wrong...

I am on the fence on this one...

I still see SC as a problem to be solved. SC has fewer actual pieces attacking (not just fewer activations, also just one attack per activation) then the average squad. There must be a way to expliot that. Stun should be a huge issue for them. X:es should be a bigger issue for them. On the lam, Lando with his card and stun surge, Jyn in general, 0-0-0 in general, Set for stun, ranged pecking attacks, Dewbacks Lances, Terro in general, Royal guard (!), Wampa (!!!), Chewie, ...

If we hate build against SC (accapting that we become weaker against other sqauds), can it be beat regularly then?

I will try Chewie, Han, Jyn, Lando, 2x smugglers, Gideon and R2 combined with all the evil smuggler, stun and defensive boost cards I can Think of soon and see if I can go positive win percentages against it with that.  

If there is a counter band, then we are at least in a better position then if there isnt. At least then we can be in rock/paper/scissors meta.

Edited by Ram

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Perhaps I wasn't clear with the main focus of my point. Whether it's beatable or not, and whether the SC problem can be solved or not, is less of a concern (still a concern, but less so) than whether it's at all interesting or healthy for seven Deployment cards to be used nearly as frequently as the other couple of hundred available cards put together.

@Jilguens just played four tournament games out of six against Spectre Cell. I can't speak on his behalf, but by the fourth of those I'd be just about ready to flip the table and walk away, giving my opponent the walkover (regardless of victories or defeats up to that point). That just sounds phenomenally boring.

1 hour ago, Ram said:

If there is a counter band, then we are at least in a better position then if there isnt. At least then we can be in rock/paper/scissors meta.

You can play twenty or thirty games of rock/paper/scissors in a minute if you really go for it. Even so, almost nobody plays it as a hobby because it's just not that interesting, and absolutely no-one at all spends hundreds of currency-units on it.

Imperial Assault games take a solid hour and cost a lot of money to get into. Maybe time spent painting the figures, too. It's not much fun to spend all that money and time then sit down to a game and say "rock!", only to spend the next hour working out that your opponent chose paper. Or indeed scissors; whichever.

Rock/paper/scissors really isn't a good ideal for Imperial Assault (or any other tabletop wargame) to aim for.

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I think a small sense of rock paper scissors is absolutely OK for a war game. Let's say: IG is great against Vader but not as good against Han, Vader is great against Han but not as good against IG, Han is great against IG but not as good against Vader. I'd have no problem with that.

But right now we have rock (SC) and scissors (everything else) and no paper at all. That sucks ...

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2 hours ago, Bitterman said:

 just played four tournament games out of six against Spectre Cell. I can't speak on his behalf, but by the fourth of those I'd be just about ready to flip the table and walk away, giving my opponent the walkover (regardless of victories or defeats up to that point). That just sounds phenomenally boring.

You can play twenty or thirty games of rock/paper/scissors in a minute if you really go for it. Even so, almost nobody plays it as a hobby because it's just not that interesting, and absolutely no-one at all spends hundreds of currency-units on it.

Imperial Assault games take a solid hour and cost a lot of money to get into. Maybe time spent painting the figures, too. It's not much fun to spend all that money and time then sit down to a game and say "rock!", only to spend the next hour working out that your opponent chose paper. Or indeed scissors; whichever.

Rock/paper/scissors really isn't a good ideal for Imperial Assault (or any other tabletop wargame) to aim for.

I don't disagree with you on this one...bitterman...lol...great name. I would hate to line up against EXACTLY the same list in a tournament. But I don't really blame the game or the designers, but the players. I want to go and get 3-4 games in since I can't play all the time. I'm not sure I'd care if an opponent brought a strong list or a internets meta list, as long as I'm not playing it in all 3-4 games! These players don't have to bring these lists, but they do because they want desperately to win the swag, which is often never worth a lot anyway! Trust me. I sell FFG OP stuff all the time. I can understand if you're a new player and don't want to get swamped, or you really love Star Wars Rebels (don't get me started on this Disney abomination of Star Wars some call "fraudulent"). 

At the end of the day, it's really up to you whether you want to play in a tournament and face the meta to try to win swag, or go to get some games in and buy the swag on ebay. Does it hurt the game? Yes, probably. I got scared away from X-wing because it felt like work. Work where you co-workers are all salty cheaters and most playing internets meta lists with pilots and ships I've never heard of, nonetheless ever wanted to use in battle. I love the game though, I just have no interest in wasting 8-10 hours of my life on it.  

You're right that IA costs a lot of money to get into, and takes time to paint. But to me it's a great value and is like multiple hobbies in one. You get to use iconic figures and enjoy a civilized game play NOT conducive to cheating. You also get to sit down! My back loves that. 

Edited by NeverBetTheFett

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What DerBaer said.

If the cell has a counterband that wins 75% of the games against it, SC will not be everywhere. There will be a meta. If one squads wins every game there is no meta.

If there is no counter/strong list against SC, then the game is in trouble for sure. It will be SC vs SC all over. However, if for instance stunning resilient Han above works we will be ok in my book. The list is strong enough to give many lists at least a run for their Money. Vader is no huge fan of stuns either and sneaky smugglers at least stands a chanice against IG/hunters. If we need to add meta lists to handle a strong list is not a problem in my book. Having no meta list against the strong list is.

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50 minutes ago, Ram said:

If there is no counter/strong list against SC, then the game is in trouble for sure.

To be fair, the game has been in trouble since it came out. It came into the world with it's big brother X-wing shining bright. Except with this old girl, you're paying a large amount of money for stuff you may not even want (campaign components or skirmish figures/cards you could care less for). You also have to paint it and but the board together each time you play it.

The fact that players like us on this forum are so passionate to be able to keep this game interesting is flat out amazing. I'll still be playing this game well after it dies which I hope isn't for a long time. 

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18 hours ago, Bitterman said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear with the main focus of my point. Whether it's beatable or not, and whether the SC problem can be solved or not, is less of a concern (still a concern, but less so) than whether it's at all interesting or healthy for seven Deployment cards to be used nearly as frequently as the other couple of hundred available cards put together.

@Jilguens just played four tournament games out of six against Spectre Cell. I can't speak on his behalf, but by the fourth of those I'd be just about ready to flip the table and walk away, giving my opponent the walkover (regardless of victories or defeats up to that point). That just sounds phenomenally boring.

You can play twenty or thirty games of rock/paper/scissors in a minute if you really go for it. Even so, almost nobody plays it as a hobby because it's just not that interesting, and absolutely no-one at all spends hundreds of currency-units on it.

Imperial Assault games take a solid hour and cost a lot of money to get into. Maybe time spent painting the figures, too. It's not much fun to spend all that money and time then sit down to a game and say "rock!", only to spend the next hour working out that your opponent chose paper. Or indeed scissors; whichever.

Rock/paper/scissors really isn't a good ideal for Imperial Assault (or any other tabletop wargame) to aim for.

Well I thought that before the nationals. but there, I've seen different lists beating SC.

There at the first 6 rounds(eliminatory rounds), I've seen a scum (non IG) beat SC 4 times of 4. and he lost only against nonIG scum list. he did 5-1 and passed to Top8... He arrives at Top4 and was beaten by SC. So there's a way to defeat them. 

The winner of the tournament was an SC, but this player for me is the best IA player in Spain. He was 2nd at last european and 2nd too last spanish nationals.

The Game has changed, but not Broken.

Edited by Jilguens

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3 hours ago, Jilguens said:

I've seen a scum (non IG) beat SC 4 times of 4. and he lost only against nonIG scum list. he did 5-1 and passed to Top8...

Sweet! Kindly tell me everything about this list. :) 

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I would think the all riot trooper list would tear up the SC list. Anytime an SC member has to swing on a 2pt figure and then get weakened and strained to death is probably a win. 1000 cuts and capturing all the extra points from objectives is how you win every game with that list

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20 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I would think the all riot trooper list would tear up the SC list. Anytime an SC member has to swing on a 2pt figure and then get weakened and strained to death is probably a win. 1000 cuts and capturing all the extra points from objectives is how you win every game with that list

I tried a riot swarm only once vs spectre and... it did not go well.  I lured Ezra away from Kanan and had like 4 activations' worth of riots to try and take him out, but it's so tough to get through his innate defenses that half of my rolls resulted in no damage at all (and thus no strain).  Then he played pummel to start the next round, killing two troopers and recovering 4.  Then next activation he used his spectre cell attack, killing another trooper and recovering 2 more.  He was basically back with 0 damage, and I was down 3 troopers and a whole lot of wasted effort.

Now maybe it could have gone better with better rolls, no doubt, or maybe I shouldn't have gone for Ezra at all (even when away from Kanan), but I'm still not convinced that riots are a great spectre counter.  The more small attacks you throw in general, the more times the Spectres' +1 block is going to be added and so you're kind of losing out on a lot of efficiency there.  And even though I was eventually able to mill his command deck by the end of the game with strain, spectres a) don't draw many cards (so it takes a long time for that strain to turn into damage) and b) are less reliant on cards generally than a lot of other builds.

Edit: I guess I should also mention that the map matters here.  On Tarkin's rogue AI, for example, trooper swarm can get a crazy number of objective points and are probably going to be able to win on that.  But it's tough to bring a list that's only likely to win on one or two missions, and in a straight brawl I don't think they've got what it takes to go up against SC.

 

 

For what it's worth, I'm 2-0 against the cell so far with Han-Rangers-Sabine.  Obviously it's only two games, so who knows, but it's a start.

Edited by ManateeX

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15 minutes ago, ManateeX said:

I tried a riot swarm only once vs spectre and... it did not go well.  I lured Ezra away from Kanan and had like 4 activations' worth of riots to try and take him out, but it's so tough to get through his innate defenses that half of my rolls resulted in no damage at all (and thus no strain).  Then he played pummel to start the next round, killing two troopers and recovering 4.  Then next activation he used his spectre cell attack, killing another trooper and recovering 2 more.  He was basically back with 0 damage, and I was down 3 troopers and a whole lot of wasted effort.

Edit: I guess I should also mention that the map matters here.  On Tarkin's rogue AI, for example, trooper swarm can get a crazy number of objective points and are probably going to be able to win on that.  But it's tough to bring a list that's only likely to win on one or two missions, and in a straight brawl I don't think they've got what it takes to go up against SC.

I found that my e-riots were great against them. You do bring up a good point though which is that SC is not a guaranteed win on all maps. 

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yeah, I should have said that Ezra is probably the one figure I wouldn't go after with riots unless you had some fancy command cards. I've won every game I've ignored Ezra and concentrated on the others (easier said than done) but if you kill Kanan, Hera and Chopper can go down pretty easily and usually Zeb and Sabine can be taken out. Ezra's extra blocks and white die can be tough unless you can weaken him (then the white die is 5/6 neutered and essentially he has 1-2 blocks) 

Rule by Fear helps because you can draw a decent hand or at least have Zillo ammo. 

Usually they'll swap the maps in November before all the tournaments in DEC-Jan or whenever they are. If they swap out both maps, I think Riots gets stronger. The flipside of that maul map is crazy. You can get 16pts in one round if you get all the posters flipped. IF you kill Hera or scare away some of the SC you can get a bunch of them flipped quick and there's nothing your opponent can do.

Edited by buckero0

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7 hours ago, buckero0 said:

I would think the all riot trooper list would tear up the SC list. Anytime an SC member has to swing on a 2pt figure and then get weakened and strained to death is probably a win. 1000 cuts and capturing all the extra points from objectives is how you win every game with that list

Sabine's grenades say hai.

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6 hours ago, miguelj said:

Sabine's grenades say hai.

Max 2 damage. Granted I've mainly played against them on the lothal map and uscru bc i figured tje rotation will happen sooner than later but there is a ton of space on those maps and SC cannot come from behind scoring objectives. They don't have the activations and Hera is actually a liability, she just can't take attacks. Riots reinforce and tjrow grenades and weaken destroys SC. They need those surges to recover, do damage and pierce.

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