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drazen90909

A Question of 2.0 Arcs

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A little confused about the difference between the Mobile Arc Symbol and the Forward Arc Symbol on the cards.  Does the Mobile Arc qualify for the Forward Arc if it is in the forward position?

Example: Can the VT-49 Decimator take Outmaneuver and use it when the Decimator's arc is in the forward position?  

- or -

Can he never use it?  (cause mobile arcs and forward arcs are two separate things?)

 

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Hmm..

Outmaneuver: "While you perform a front arc attack, if you are not in the defender's firing arc, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense die."

and the turret arc section of Arcs from the Rules Reference (online link for the unofficial reference: http://infinitearenas.com/xw2rules/index.php?page=arc)

"Turret Arcs

Unlike other arcs, some weapons use turret arc indicators to select arcs. There are two types of turret arc indicators: single turret ( ) and double turret ( ). During setup, a ship with a primary (or special) or weapon adds the corresponding turret arc indicator to its base.

The turret arc indicator points toward one of ship's four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc. While a ship performs a turret attack, it can attack a target that is in its arc.

A ship with a double turret arc indicator has two in opposite directions.

A ship can adjust which standard arc(s) that its turret arc indicator is pointing towards by using the rotate () action."

Reading those I believe that as long as you're not in any of the defender's firing arcs (as indicated by either the shading on the base plate card for their ship or the turret arc indicator/indicators on their ship's peg) and your attack against them is coming from the turret (double turret arc indicates 2 separate turrets that FFG has decided move fixed in orientation to each other, nicknamed Bow Tie) that is facing the front arc Outmaneuver applies.

Pg 3 and 4 of the Rules Reference PDF available on the X-Wing Second Edition page under the Rules section if you prefer official sources. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/

Edited by Hiemfire

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The big question is, does a forward-facing turret arc attack count as a front firing arc attack.  I would tend to agree with @Hiemfire, that as long as you are attacking through your front arc (regular front arc or forward pointed turret arc), and you are not in (any of) the defender's firing arc(s), Outmaneuver should work.

By that extension, I believe it would also work within the "standard forward arc" limitations of the Auzituck Gunship (but not the auxiliary portions of the full arc that aren't in the "front arc" lines)

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The standard forward arc is a separate arc from a turret arc, which is how gunner Han can give multiple shots a turn. But in the case of the VT-49 Decimator, it's primary weapon is a turret, which fires from the turret arc, not the standard arc (this is why the standard forward arc is not shaded on the Deci, unlike the Lambda shuttle). Since Outmanuever specifies a standard forward arc, I would think that it wouldn't apply to the Decimator's primary weapon (but would if it used a non-turret weapon out the front).

Edited by Nspace

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9 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc.

That is the key rule here. If the turret arc is facing forward, than it is also a standard front arc.

So the answer to the OP question is yes.

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8 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

By that extension, I believe it would also work within the "standard forward arc" limitations of the Auzituck Gunship (but not the auxiliary portions of the full arc that aren't in the "front arc" lines)

I disagree with this part. 

When triggering abilities, there are two ways that cards can state conditions. The first is simply that the defender be in a specific arc. Once that condition is met, the arc or weapon used to attack can be distinct. 

An example of this is Corran Horn. His ability can be triggered by any ship in his bullseye arc, but his ability does not state he must attack with it. Therefore, if the defender is in his bullseye arc at range 2, but the closest point to closest point in Corran's full primary arc is range 1, the bonus attack Corran performs would be at range 1, and he gets the bonus dice. 

The other way is that it specifies an arc or weapon that must be used in the attack.

Outmaneuver is an example of this latter case. It states "While you perform a [front arc attack]...." This means the attack must specifically come from the forward 90 degree arc. The Auzituck does not have a forward 90 degree arc, nor can it equip weapons that do (such as proton torpedoes). The Auzituck's shaded primary arc area is the full front 180. There's nothing in the rules that states you can treat a full front arc is a standard front arc if the defender is within the standard front portion.

I believe this also effects bullseye weapons, like HLC. HLC is an attack with the bullseye arc, not with the standard front arc.

I know that the rules reference says of the bullseye arc: "This arc is found inside the [standard front arc]. If something is in a ship’s [bullseye] arc, it is also in its [standard front] arc." But I think that has to do more with my first case than the second. Although a ship in the bullseye arc is also in the attacker's front arc, an attack performed with the bullseye arc is not also a standard front attack.

We probably need an FAQ on this to be absolutely sure, but note this is the same distinction [printed arcs and associated weapons] that allows the VTG double tap on Y-Wings - the mobile arc also counts as the standard front when pointed forward, but the turret attack is made with the mobile arc (as that is the arc printed next to the weapon on the upgrade) while the primary is made with the standard front. 

For what it's worth, this apparent tying of arcs to weapons means I'm unsure about mobile arcs being able to trigger Outmaneuver as well. I think I tend to agree with this:

8 hours ago, Nspace said:

The standard forward arc is a separate arc from a turret arc, which is how gunner Han can give multiple shots a turn. But in the case of the VT-49 Decimator, it's primary weapon is a turret, which fires from the turret arc, not the standard arc (this is why the standard forward arc is not shaded on the Deci, unlike the Lambda shuttle). Since Outmanuever specifies a standard forward arc, I would think that it wouldn't apply to the Decimator's primary weapon (but would if it used a non-turret weapon out the front).

But I'm also very aware of this

10 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

The turret arc indicator points toward one of ship's four standard arcs. The standard arc that the turret arc indicator is pointing toward is a turret arc in addition to still being a standard arc.

So to be honest, I'm unsure enough about that case that I'm not going to commit either way yet.

I really think all the new arcs need an extensive FAQ. While I think I'm happy enough that I understand both RAW and RAI, there are so many questions that keep popping up and so many subtleties in the rules ref that I'd prefer to just get a few FFG worked examples to draw on. 

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On 9/7/2018 at 9:09 PM, drazen90909 said:

A little confused about the difference between the Mobile Arc Symbol and the Forward Arc Symbol on the cards.  Does the Mobile Arc qualify for the Forward Arc if it is in the forward position?

Example: Can the VT-49 Decimator take Outmaneuver and use it when the Decimator's arc is in the forward position?  

- or -

Can he never use it?  (cause mobile arcs and forward arcs are two separate things?)

 

While reading both the rules and rules reference, I believe you can. Let me explain. 

Outmaneuver says "While you perform a front arc attack," notice it does not mention a "primary weapon attack." So the requirement is only that you need to be shooting out of the front arc. 

So... the rules says this about arcs, "This front arc projects in the same direction that the ship is facing."  Also, "The turret arc indicator points toward one of ship’s four standard arcs." and "A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all mobile arcs, if any." Meaning you can fire from your "front arc" using a "turret" weapon.  

So if you your mobile arc is pointed forward, that would be a FRONT ARC attack and Outmaneuver applies.  

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1 hour ago, shaunmerritt said:

"A ship’s firing arcs include all shaded arcs on the ship’s ship token plus all mobile arcs, if any." Meaning you can fire from your "front arc" using a "turret" weapon.  

So if you your mobile arc is pointed forward, that would be a FRONT ARC attack and Outmaneuver applies.  

That's just it though: The VT-49 Decimator does not have a shaded arc. It only has the "plus all turret arcs", which is explicitly not the same thing as the standard arc (which is what is shown on Outmaneuver). The turret arc might overlap a particular standard arc, but when the turret fires, it fires using the turret arc not the standard arc.

As GuacCousteau said, I think the arc section of the Rules Reference needs more filling out by FFG and probably an example or two.

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Yes VT-49 insert doesnt have a shaded arc cuz its a turreted primary but that doesnt negate the other arc comments.  Well put ShaunM

Another referance is the Moldy Crow Title... "Gain a forward firing arc (symbol) primary weapon with a value of "3"."  It specifies primary weapon so its straight forward. 

Other than the pilot card & base insert which uses the symbol to show what arc the primary weapon shoots out of (the biggest cause of confusion in regards to arcs) I havent found anywhere yet that shows the (forward arc symbol) only refers to primary attacks (anyone?)

Overall i think we make a good case to change the icon on the pilot cards & inserts that show primary weapons using a specific arc.

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From my reading of the rules a turret in the forward firing arc is not the same as a forward firing arc. That means some ships can't benefit from certain upgrades, like Outmaneuver. It also means, however, that Veteran Turret Gunner can give you a double-tap on ships that have both a forward primary arc and a turret, such as Y-Wings.

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Been using Outmanoeuvre a lot but until reading this, it had not occurred to me that several missiles and torps should benefit from it. Looking at Cluster Missiles in a fresh light all of a sudden.

Edited by Cuz05

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Given the requirment of the forward V arc, turrets wouldnt count (since nothing in the rules specify they share). its not "out of the V arc" its "a V attack"

This is also why the Han gunner allows you to doubletap effectively, since he is specifically a mobile arc. If you have another mobile arc or a nonmobile arc, you can attack again.

And yes ordnance do benefit from it, they are a V attack after all.

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